RE: http://www.military.com/military-fitness/marine-corps-f...-up-new-fitness-test

What goes around, comes around. This looks like the "old" Physical Readiness Test used in '66 when I went through boot camp. It consisted of a knotted rope climb with all your 782 gear and rifle, low crawl out to a "wounded" buddy to pick up and run back, swinging rope across the water hazard, jumping a 5 foot wide(I think that was the width) pit, and of course the 3 mile run as a platoon still with all your gear on in 28 minutes or less.

I believe it was Gen. Twomey (sp?) CG, 2nd MarDiv, that told his Marines he did not care how far they could run in tennis shoes and their underwear, i.e. nylon PT gear, but how far could they march with all their combar gear and still be in shape to fight when they get there.

Semper Fi, Gunny Joe

I was in Boot Camp in 67 and we had the same PFT Gunny Joe describes... one that made sense for a combat unit.

When they switched to the 'new PFT', I always wondered which brilliant desk jockey in HQMC decided that it was more important that we look like the poster child for Gold's Gym than ensure that they could perform like Marines.

StoneyFF
{"OK, Raghead... before you start shooting at me, or blow me up with an IED, watch me do 60 pushups, 10 Pullups, and run 3 miles in 26 minutes in Tennis Shoes and then see if you want to mess with me!"... Yea... that'll work...}

August 1960, C. M. C. General David M. Shoup’s “Combat Readiness Test” consisted of Five (5) Events, All Timed and Scored on Points of Each Event for an Overall Passing Grade. This was in Full Utilities & Booths, 782 Gear, Helmet & Liner, Marching Pack (Inspection for all required items within pack), One (our Unit Two) Canteen(s) of Water, First Aid Kit, Bayonet, M1 Grand or BAR Rifles (later M14's), or 45 Automatics Pistols. The "Wounded Buddy to Pick-Up Carry and Run Back” was with No Assist in the pick-up of him (in full gear) and his and your rifles. Last Event was the Three (3) Mile Run (Trucked out - Run Back), USMC Required Time 1960 to 1963 was 25 minutes, then 30 minutes. Until 1962 the 3 mile run was as a Unit, Platoon or Company, that July it became an individual run “Start as a Unit and Your Time Finish”. This was a Test Every Male Marine, especially FMF Marines had to take in addition to the Standard PT Test, both required in your Fitness Report. Our Company was always less than 22 minute run. One Friday in January 1961 (after Tuesday and Wednesday Runs) three quarters of the Company (almost a Platoon was Operational) did 18 minutes with a lot of torn Utilities, weapon cuts, blood and bruises; and our Company C. O. (Who flew back from the Operation) was there to Chewed-the-hell-out of the “O2" In-Charge, “Lieutenant that is my Company and they are suppose to be a Fighting Unit at the end of that run, not with the Staff choking for breath.” But we did make a hit in Division and I did better for the I.G. Inspection in August 62. Back then under Gen. Shoup, beyond 20 lbs was over weight, 30 lbs was a problem; for Staff and “O” Grades, Shape-up or Ship-out, (Promotion?); Fitness Reports only indicated weight and strength, not bulk-muscle. But Vietnam, politics, UCMJ changes(to protect Politician’s and General’s piss poor Management), and no draft (to scare all classes of talent) to volunteer to the Corps, had screwed the Corps from where it was.

Now the Army and some Marines think’s it is something new to do what we did and where doing, especially this “Anti-Insurgent 2007", reinvent our old TM’s that were based on the Chinese (1930-40's), Indochina (1940-50's), Yugoslavian (1940's), and Algerian Wars and our Anti and Guerrilla Warfare training. The Marine Corps did have the “Mountain Warfare Training Center” tucked away in the 60's, but the Army was going to teach us their way to fight an Anti-Guerrilla War in Vietnam “by doing exactly what they did in the Philippines (early 1900's) 'Go for the Head Count'”*. So the Center was shut down in 1966, and we lost a lot of good Americans in all our Services.

*My comment after reading a “Naval Operations Report from Vietnam” one 1962 November night in Cuba, after the Invasion was called off. No more, I am getting pissed, my 41 yr old son is in the Iraq War zone.

Can we say Crucible. This is exactly what we did in Boot Camp, and I always asked why we didn't keep up the training in the fleet. Oh sure we'de fire man carry one another down the foot ball field or something, but never did any of it in LBV. Always boots and utes or pt gear. I always asked why I had to do ten "perfect" pull-ups. When I could haul me, my rifle, flak w/ plates, kevlar, pack and the 35lb base plate for my 81mm Mortar over the wall on the O-course like it was no one business. granted you need a standard rule to measure Marines and determine who gets promoted and keeps marching, but I say if I can pull all that gear over the wall and no else can, maybe that's one way of testing. All the grunts know the 3 basic rules; (1) You hump it in and you hump it out. (2) If you fall out, we're spread loading you gear. (3) Never let it get past rule 1.

I remember the old PRT, as described in other posts. However, I do believe that the 3 mile run's maximum time was 36 minutes. If a company did it in 18 minutes as one other post stated, then that was extraoridinary. I went through boot camp in 1966 and retired in 1986. It's not really a change, just going back to the old PRT.
Semper Fi.

MSgt. Bob Rees (retired)

It's been a while but I believe AL Grey introduced a block of training called the Battlefield Skills Tests (BST). It briefly made an appearance during his reign as Commandant in the late 80s. Sounds like the pendulum is swinging back to the past.

I agree. We did the PRT at PISC in August 1968. Seems very similar.

Have to agree with the general consensus on this one. I spent 32 years in the Corps and could never understand what the PFT had to do with being affective in Combat. I never once ran 3 miles or asked for a cease fire so I could do my 20 on the pull up bar!

Yes a PFT doesnt reflect combat actions but this test seems to fall short in some of the events as well. Speaking from a ground training standpoint this is going to cause a large number of problems, people getting injured doing these events, finding time to train for these events, finding time to schedule a unit for the test et cetera. It really doesnt seem worth the trouble.

The new CFT should illuminate the need to the Commanders that training requirements need to be made flexible and testing to be consistent with the readiness of the unit being tested. The new CFT is a good thing and it can work if the SSA and ASSA (stupid staff academy and advanced stupid staff academy) are dumped in favor of returning to the G-3/S-3 training office. The CFT may get off the ground, but it's not going to fly unless the program becomes flexible and scalable, based on each battalions overall readiness to tackle that kind of training with properly prepared Marines. Like SSgt King states, "Marines will have the change their training schedule—in short time!" And, it's about time Marine training is driven back to the Marine G-3/S-3s and not the selected few who staff the Academies. The Academies are what I call the Marine Corps "Single Point of Failure", or the weakest link. It’s unique training that gets to-old and to-quick, it’s expensive, and it makes a name for the Marines in the Academy’s staff positions. Marine training has to be ongoing and has to administered by Marines in the Units--the same Marines who eventually carry their training experiences with them. It use to work but it got out of control and was replaced with Academy training. How it became broken was that, first, S-3/G-3 billets started becoming filled with Marine who were not trained for it, as the Marine in the S-3 was usually there to fill the billet outside of his/her MOS! (Thanks to MMEA). Secondly, the G-3’s and the CMC filed to set up a program that centralized the unit training programs, policies, and procedures and to approve the correct methods and strategies. Then to teach the G-3/S-3 Marines how to making their training experiences portable so that the Marines experience can be used by additional commanders at new duty locations. Without command and control, differing training events at different units could not be combined and meet the objectives of an overall, USMC wide training objective. So the G-3/S-3 was dumped, but it was not right. It’s true that the S-3/G-3 was broken but it should have been repaired -- only I served with an inflexible Marine Corps that didn’t have the foresight to bring the dying General 3 Section and Staff 3 Section back to life. In terms of today’s Marines, they will view the new CFT as it is relayed to them by HHQs, but they are going to need G-3/S-3 support to incorporate higher training standards at the unit levels. For example, giving a fast-rope exercise to a radio, communication, security, headquarters battalion is a dumb move. The Marines are not ready to accept the challenge without preparation. Remember the old annual training request – used to plan utilization of training resources for the coming year—each unit submitted, but each unit’s submission was denied if the type of training asked for could not be provided. Going back in time, I can find lots of explanations for why the training program at the Unit level failed. New training is good, but new training methods are also needed, now!

Where are all the airwingers at? This test has nothing to do with how I can perform my job in combat(trust me I know). This test is going to take time away from real training for my junior marines whom don't get enough time on the aircraft before they go over seas as it is.

Sound like part of the old "PRT", physical readiness test. As far whether all should participate, that is a non-question. We have standards, they should be met by every Marine, without regard for MOS, Duty Station, or 'float' status.
I've heard all the arguments for over 40 years, IMHO, they don't hold water. Physical fitness is important to readiness.
Respects,
Sergeant Major

Come on though, a logistics company doing the tests? Those POG's shouldn't be talking about combat effectiveness, fire and maneuver or carrying anyone off the battlefield. Let's be realistic, this CFT is long overdue but it shouldn't be required of all Marines because that's just a waste of time. The only Marines that should be required to pass are 03's and 03's only. If you don't agree than you're probably a POG!!!!!! If you ask a grunt he'll probably tell you to &$(#* off because he's in the middle of a pack-run or a 20+ mi hump or a run-swim-run or an attack. Point is grunts are the only ones that should be weighing in on this issue, all others need not apply. And don't give me that "every Marines a rifleman" bit, that's just feel good BS.

9950440, YOU ARE BEAUTIFUL MY MAN! I was thinking the same thing! All this politically correct BS about getting women into combat so they can get promoted (when did our beloved Corps become a social experiment?). Will they be required to pass this? I'll bet 6 of my retirement checks that you won't find ten in the whole Corps who could pass it! I too remember the Al Gray experiment. I was a relatively young man (30) and a 1st class PFTer (280 or above) and that BST kicked my ***. Another thing that always put sand in my cl*t was the Corps practice of once you became a 9999 (1stSgt) you could magically become a grunt 1stSgt. What a crock of **** that was! We'd send some awsome Co Gunny's who got promoted to an FSSG or Air Wing unit and vice versa! WTF! My last tour the 1stSgt, who came to us from legal! yeah, I said legal, used to refer to us as "You Grunts"! I **** you not! I saw more office hours in 18 months than I did my whole career! We went to combat with this specimen. So many times I wanted to say "You hillbilly ****, your sleepin on the same dirt and **** that I am! That makes you "You Grunt!" 9950440, I'm drinkin a beer in salute to you right now!

9950440 and Quips68, if you two are done patting one another on the back maybe I can point out that not all of our combat MOSs fall in the 0300 field.

Beyond that, one of the huge 'lessons learned' of the curent conflict is that combining a domestic insurgency with our security role and our long supply lines has put truck drivers, 0600 commo clowns, and even civil affairs pogues (yes, that's how you spell it) in a position where they have been killing people and breaking their sh**.

A lot of Marines will never have to fireman's carry their fireteam leader back to the LAV, but they had better be able to; Legal, Admin, Arty, or Grunt.

Famous words of a POG. And no that isn't how you spell P.O.G., but if you were a grunt you would've known that. P.O.G. is an acronym for Personnel Other than Grunt. So there is a little insider knowledge for you. O300 forever all the rest are just support. So thanks for your support.

Thanks for the data