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New Member |
RE: A famous German sniper once said that a true sniper would never put himself in a position where he would need a semi-automatic weapon. This stands even to this day; Until a semi-automatic rifle can surpass a bolt-action in ruggedness and accuracy, as well as inhereit silence and concealability, the semi-automatic sniper rifle will remain an unneccessay part of a snipers inventory. http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,146717,00.html
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You ever even use a Rifle in Combat?
Until then, you've NO idea how useful a Semi-Automatic Sniper weapons system is son. and that Kraut probably is long dead... |
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Member |
Yeah... Technology has improved quite a bit over the years - Especially battlefield technology.
It's not uncommon for snipers nowadays to engage multiple targets at once - Hence the need for a semi-auto... Not to mention the fact that they're simply more efficient in comparison to the antiquated bolt action rifle. But while we're at it... Why don't we just go back to muzzle-loaders?  |
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New Member |
Once the soldier and his weapon are 'mated', he is the most dangerous. Allowing him the accuracy and speed of the semi-automatic should make for many more dead enemy. Point and spray was good for up close, but to pick them off (if you can see 'em), well, that seems a better way. I think I'd have liked one of these.
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New Member |
Marine Corps , Considering Joining Resides in New York --- funny got this from your page was wondering what makes you the pro on a sniper other than reading about them? I'm not a sniper myself but have met a few while being an 11b infantry soldier for a few years so I won't contest as to what a sniper would like semi or auto. |
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Member |
Can anyone tell me what is so freaking great about the 7.62X51 round. Basically it's a .308 which has far less speed and far less energy then even the ole .30-06. Our snipers deserve the best, I'm sure we can all agree on that. So when it comes to long range shooting why don't they fire the .300 winchester mag or some other super fast round with a ton of down range energy? Don't get me wrong the 7.62X51 round has worked fine for the past 50 years, and this may have sounded like I'm putting it down but what I really meant for this to be was a question. If they're getting a brand new "super gun" then why can't they go to a faster, more down range energy, more accurate out to longer distances round?
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New Member |
It is obvious that NON SHOOTERS,, have selected the rifle and caliber!!,, that is to say,, who shoots the 1000yard range at Camp Perry,, 300 WM is the answer,, however this is not the first time the sniper rifle was chosen ,, I was involved in the selection and DID NOT RECOMEND WHAT WAS CHOSEN!!,, BUT WHAT THE HELL DOES A SHOOTER KNOW!!,, ASK DOD,,THE ONLY WORSE PURCHASE WAS THE Barrett 50!!,,DOD adopted this also,, ask a sniper,, with equipment,, 100rds of ammo,,and mags and gun,, spread out between two men,, and ask them to walk to Cusseta GA, and back and then make a shot,, you will medecac them both,, could it be the DOD purchasing officer was a golfing buddy of Barret??,, could it,, could it???
WW. |
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New Member |
OK so here is what I know.
Having served as a Sniper in Afghanistan and also having used this XM110 before the joe's in Solerno or the guys that made the "Soldier of fortune" headlines for the New Sniper System I can say this from experience.On a mountain top in North East Afghanistan while using the Prototype version of the xm110 my small team was overwatching 3 valleys, 4 mountains and an OP from 4 K away. The soldiers we overwatched needed out security and thats what they got with the XM110. When the soldiers did a test fire at sun down they surprised a group of Taliban that was trying to sneak up on them on a higher peak than they were at, roughly 800meters away. The test fire frightened them into thinking they were seen so they started shooting everywhere. Up-Down-Left Right, rpg's AK's, machine guns... Once they began getting their bearings they began delivering more accurate fire. The US soldiers below were already actively aware and engaging the ACM and were doin a fine job. The Taliban didn't see my Team though. we were close by, aprox 550 meters on a lower mountain peak but closer to them than the regular army. I used a pvs 22 night site in front of the Leupold TMR scope that is on the XM110. The adjustments on the scope are amazing and obviously Leupold makes Great Optics. Seeing the ACM was No problem in the dark, and when the Pesky RPG gunner popped up for a 3rd shot he was Hit by a 7.62 M118 Round from my XM110 and he never got that 3rd round off. The boys below never felt another tearing shock of any RPG's, following the sudden death of the ACM rpg gunner the ACM scrambled. Leaving little to shoot at accurately and while they scrammbled I shot off as many rounds as i could to drive them towards the incoming Willy Pete rounds, Very soon after the Fight was Finished off. It's said I shouldnt have shot off so many rounds in a short time. However, i say A rifle is a tool. It gets used and it can be fixed. PLus it was a prototype and the Instructors told us to give it hell. After havin shot a few mags of ammo (Which included Armor piercing Ball ammo from a 240 belt) I was Very satisfied with the performance of that Rifle. Very Very happy to have a Semi Auto Rifle as a part of the Team. HOWEVER. If i am in overwatch with an active target and theres the need for Greater accuracy I would have the man with the M24 take the shot. The M24 is a SOLID precise rifle with a bolt system that doesnt Jump forwards and Backwards to load another round in the chamber thus making it much more steady. If i want another Exact shot i will load another round at the time of my choosing and quietly, slowly. Someone here asked "Why Not Use a Larger Round?" Well heres my take on that. The 7.62 M118 round we use, has Kick but a Steady kick. It is not too much. With a larger round the recoil can make you lose your site picture/ take time to find the target again, over time kick your shoulders butt and it isn't needed. If you have ever shot a man with a 7.62 round centermass you will know what i mean. It's a Powerfull Fast round. an M118 round is not your everyday hunting round. |
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New Member |
One more thing, The 300 Win IS TRULY A GREAT ROUND!!!!! If it was up to me, YES i'd take it in a rifle!!! However it's not the cards we were dealt. Perhaps its more Cost effective for...... the guys not out having to do the Killin. The XM110 is a bit heavy and there were a few things about it that didnt make too much sense. such as the front flip up site. You would need to carry a tool to open it if you need it. Also the paint was Weak on it. it rubbed off the upper and lower receiver in 3 days and revealed a nice GOlden color. Very much the standard for a man trying to Hide in a natural environment. ( YEh thats a joke).
And as for the 50 Cal we use.. hmmm no thanks. Used it, fun to tinker with on base but Im never carrying that Hunk of metal up a mountain again! Ever!!!! Was a waist of energy and i almost blew the O ring. |
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New Member |
This is sort of like trying to justify a 9mm over a .45 auto. I started with a S&W M39 in 9mm when everyone carried .38/357 mag. Got to carrying two M39 and I still like it but doesn't do the job a .45 will. We have a bunch of .308 (I never bought into the metric game). As a sniper (not a plinker) we need something closer to a .350 mag. A lot of work went into developing the .308 primarily to make a short 06 but we can do better. Semi auto needed definitely but more punch. The .50 is one of those rounds that is exceptionally accurate but big. I'd like a little more sectional density (whap!)than a .30 has. Depends on the terrain. Three sizes fits all--not one. Thor
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New Member |
what are the bean counters thinking here semi auto accurate and proven anyone rember the old M-1D the sniper version of the M-1 Garand it has power and punch is proven theres plenty around you can buy a case of ammo at walmart for 10 bucks and shoot all day the bullet has great ballistics and hits hard if they want something like the M14 why not go back a few more years to korea and grab the M-1D i mean you guys tell me if im wrong here but if they want power and something proven iwould go to war with my grandfather gun not something new
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As far as why the 308, I would think that it is the largest they can get in a semi auto military type rifle. If you read the list of wants, that round would problally have been it. Iam not sure of the weight, but I would think that carring a bolt action and m4 would be about the same. Plus having two differant types of ammo might be heavier. But I do not see a semi as accurate as a bolt. And neither do I see the stock as good as the Bolt or the M14. I just think this is another One fits all situations rifle. If they truly wanted the best, they would have listened to what the men pulling the trigger had to say. Let them design rifles, not some REMF whos only combat experience is at the Post Theater. The people in the field who use these weapons know what they want.
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New Member |
It is not a matter of one stop shopping for a single do-all sniper platform. METT-T still has a significant place in mission planning. SOF typically does this since the mission parameters are gnats-a$$ detailed and systems can, more often than not, be matched to specific requirements. When a mission calls for a non-urban AO stalk, a small number of specific engagements and extraction, stand-off distance is a premium and many would opt for the bolt rifle shooting .300 WM or, yes, one of the venerable .50BMG platforms (if the hump wasnt supposed to be a marathon) Static overwatch or security or countersniper...I still want precision and stand-off vice volume. However, what Trooper blrrr23 described is precisely the scenario where a semi works best...a target rich environment where not only snap shots are necessary, but often follow-ups are needed.
The debates surrounding the 30.06, .50, 7.62 family (to include the 7.62x54 used in SVDs) .300, .338 etc etc will never go away, because folks seem to forget that the community cannot ever find the "perfect" plaform and round to do it all. Never assume the M1118 is not up the task. Again as blrrr23 points out, the system is a tool. It helps to have tools to fit the missions. J Dodson- while the M1D was a great rifle, it was little more than the basic battle rifle with a scope. The preferred "precision marksman" rifle was the '03A3 Springfield...a bolt-thrower. And when it came to great nail drivers of the period, you could hardly fault the German K98 with a scope...the 8mm round was fantastic. But the reason the 30.06 went the way of the dino was that it was too heavy, recoiled like a bugger and was not inherently as accurate as the 7.62. Harder hitting, yes, but you had the trajectory of a rainbow at 600+ yards vice the flatter shooting .308. With todays technology in ammmunition, going back to the 30.06 is like going back to Edsels... ...this, coming from a man who has never owned a rifle that was not 30.06  |
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New Member |
I am appalled that they selected the same basic gas system as the M16, direct gas. It is a known design flaw and horribly undependable in any kind of adverse conditions. The Army claims that if the soldier keeps the weapon scrupulously clean it is dependable. Bunk! The Army will has adopted another undependable piece of junk which will be around forever.
Not clear from the write up if the chamber/barrel is chrome plated. Presume not as there would be a slight decrease in accuracy. 7.62 is a fine round with great accuracy but in the last 50 years, other rounds have come out that are far better in accuracy and trajectory, e.g. 300 Win. Granted that one claim is that 7.62 is the same round used by machine guns and does not strain the logistics system. However, the accuracy of the machine gun ammo is not sufficient for the precision marksmanship required of sniping. Semi-auto is great in some applications but the operation of the slide is very noisy compared to the action of a bolt. No wonder it was evaluated in secrecy -- to prevent the glaring display of ignorance! |
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New Member |
Intersting that the Soviets went with a semi-automatic sniper rifle back in '63: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_Sniper_Rifle . And they weren't bad at the game.
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New Member |
Thanks for your service and contribution to this topic. Well said. Back in my day, Army rifle platoon leader & rifle company commander, Vietnam '67-'69, we had a few Winchester M-70 30-06, and vanilla M-14's without scopes for sniper or sharpshooter work. Precision shooting/sniping has a role and there is a role for highly trained expert snipers. Barret .50 cal, 300 Mag, 416 Barret & others are excellent tools for the gillie suited specialists. We need some to handle those "800 yard shots in high wind." On the other hand, well trained sharpshooters, sans exotica, equiped with the M110 (semi-auto 7.62) seem to me to have significant battlefield value today. 99.9% "sinper" shots are made at ranges less than infantry rifle battle battle sight zero (250 meters last I heard) - if good a greater ranges great! I think we need at least 1 M-110 (or equivalent) equiped sharpshooter per rifle & recon squads in line infantry battalions. Perhaps a platoon of gillie suit sniper teams with precision firearms plus shooters equiped with M110's at battalion or brigade level. We need lots of sharpshooters - seems to me the M110 is great tool - accuracy & firepower. |
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New Member |
While in VN, I inherited an m14 match rifle with cherry starlite scope for evening work.
The ammo was national match, i think 243 grain, and loaded fairly slow. The scopes had their "T" set at 400 meters for night work. The entire mess was 22 lbs. Our primary concern was mortar teams. The semi automatic operation would allow two or more individual a quick trip to their ancestors. The match grade 14's were excellent performers and the 7.62 match ammo highly predictable though a 'moderate' performer. As with the earlier post about Afghanistan, bolt action rifles are great for assassinations, but highly accurate semi-automatic fire from total concealment brings about a perfect mixture of lethality and terror. g BLT 1/26mar |
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New Member |
if u want to knew my openion on the XM110, here it is i think we just need to use the 50 cal sniper because that work for me when i use a maines sniper when i needed it when i was in Iraq
i have at least 9 kills useing that at 1500 yards. and a snipers moto is one shot one kill so why would u need a simi-attamitic beause once u shot then u just give your position away then you are a dead sniper and what need do we need for a dead sniper |
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New Member |
Anyone that has received proper training in sustained fire with a bolt action rifle can attest to the fact that they can shoot as fast as the target can be acquired in most situations involving any distance. The problem with the older bolt actions for multiple targets was the lack of relatively high capacity magazines. That issue is no longer an valid argument against the bolt gun. There may be applications for a semi-automatic sniper system but none of them hold much water for replacing the old M-21 chambered for the 308.
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New Member |
Comming from a civillian that shoots long distance competatively, I think that the XM110 would make a great weapon for the spotter of a sniper team, but the shooter needs a solid platform. I'd recommend the Accuracy International AW .308, also known as the L96A1 (the one I'm holding in my profile picture). I've shot 4 inch diameter clay pigeons at 1000 yards with it and it had energy to spare (the same amount of foot pounds as a .45 at the muzzle). If you need to go bigger for say 2000 yard/meter shots, I'd recmmend the .338 Lapua cartaridge. It's superior to the .300 in many ways. That would be the Accuracy International model L115. Then of course AI makes the AW. 50 (bolt action) and then the AS50.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: NRAdude, |
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