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RE: http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,145944,00.html

This is probably the most thought-provoking and comprehensive article ever posted on Military.com. I hope that there are more of them. I suggest that the folks who manage this site coordinate with the Federation of American Scientists (www.fas.org) in order to bring some of their articles to the community at Military,com.

Redundancy! There's no substitue for it. Whether it is achieved by multiplying the number of satellites, or by using microwave-based communications systems -which pre-dated the satellites- as back up, the United States needs redundancy.

It is also comforting to look upon our expenditures on Anti-missile defenses as an anti-satellite capability as well. It makes it easier to rationalize the expense we have made to date.

The speculation that the Chinese were testing their capabilities to blind the U.S. military in the initial stage of an attack on Taiwan is interesting. We are probably relying on our submarine and strategic bomber fleets as the rapid reaction force to counter a sudden Chinese move against Taiwan. These craft don't need satellites for navigation purposes; but the "smart bombs" at least, rely on these satellites. I don't believe that we have adequate carriers to maintain a presence near the island. There are certainly no ground forces available; and without stationing tactical air forces at Kadena Air Base any longer, the Air Force can't bring much to a confrontation with the Chinese in short order.

Given that the United States more or less declared that Space was our "51st State" (as the British paper editorialized), it makes sense that other countries would protect their claims by advancing their own space warfare development programs. On this level, the United States was just "asking for it".
 
Posts: 1527 | Registered: Tue 31 August 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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RE: http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,145944,00.html

Well, First we basically sell of give away all the science involved, all the technology, and now suddenly we are suprised??

Exactly what else is there to say here?

We have sold almost everything of any industrial or commerical value to China, eliminated our tariffs which were the only real protection our workers or industries had against slave labor, and now were surprised when our economy is failing, we have unsafe products and food in our stores and food chain, and were suppost to be "surprised" or "shocked" by such events as this?

Suddenly, they demonstrate "their" military accomplishments, and now were "concerned"?

Look around and think a bit. China as good as OWNS our country right now.

And your taking all this political nonsense, these freak shows we call "major" parties so seriously once again? They have no solutions they ARE the problem!

Forgotten all the warnings you all had from Pat Buchanan
and Ross Perot? Still can't hear that giant sucking sound???

You know, we are getting what we have so very richly EARNED right now.
 
Posts: 1893 | Registered: Fri 16 September 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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RE: http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,145944,00.html

A very good report with a good analysis except there was no mention of the seminal event that enabled China's capability in missile guidance.

Remember Loral?
quote:
National Daily Republican News Archive

Sunday, May 17, 1998
Christopher warned Clinton

significant military and intelligence loss to US

By Richard Horowitz, Daily Republican Staff Writer

WASHINGTON DESK - If president Clinton approved the launching of American-made satellites aboard Chinese rockets against the advice of top White House advisors and contrary to a Pentagon report that the transfer was violative of U.S national security, he must have had a powerful motivation for doing so and he must have been ready to face the consequences of his actions.

Some critical facts have come to light in the past few days making it clear that the president's actions were reckless and may have jeopardized the military defense of this nation.

In a follow-up to Friday's New York Times story, Times' writers Jeff Gerth and David Sanger reveal additional information pinpointing Warren Christopher, Clinton's secretary of state, admonishing Clinton for planning to hand over to the Communist Chinese, American missile guidance programming source codes embedded in commercial U.S. satellites that were part of a deal Ron Brown had worked up with Communist China. Christopher, is said to have told Clinton, the Brown deal could jeopardize "...significant military and intelligence interests..." of the United States missile guidance system.

Gerth's latest information bonanza paints president Bill Clinton into a corner with information obtained from 'reliable' inside sources. The source depicts Clinton as so eager to place the missile guidance source codes technology in Communist Chinese hands that he suddenly reorganized the U.S. government chain of command and responsibility so as to remove the jurisdiction over that technology from Warren Christopher at the State Department, by reassigning that authority to Ron Brown at Commerce.

Then, with Ron Brown having control of U.S. missile technology, Clinton signed several waivers allowing U.S. satellite launches in China. That action took place on the very same day that Wang Jun, the man who was often referred to during the campaign finance investigations as a "Chinese arms dealer," arrived in Washington to meet with Brown at the Commerce Department. It was no surprise to the White House that during the evening, Wang attended a White House Coffee hosted by Clinton and the first lady.

It is ironic that, given the level of knowledge that Clinton had concerning the interest of the Communist Chinese in obtaining U.S. missile targeting programming source codes, and the opposition of high level advisors, that he would have ignored prevailing opinion and approved the export to China of that technology by one of the companies under investigation by a Federal grand jury.

At issue in the grand jury was whether two American companies illegally gave "China space expertise that significantly advanced Beijing's ballistic missile program." Christopher was over-ruled and the State Department backed-down.

And, before the grand jury could take action on facts they had, the criminal inquiry 'short-circuited' when president Clinton quietly issued a back-dated Executive Order approving the export to China of the missile source code technology by LORAL SPACE AND COMMUNICATIONS the company being investigated. LORAL's chairman and CEO is Bernard Schwartz, the largest personal contributor to the 1992-1996 Clinton-Gore Campaign Committee.
 
Posts: 1151 | Registered: Tue 20 September 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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AGBrina!

My opinion is that there will never be a military confrontation with China.

If there were such, this would not be just another TV time war, babbled about in our dysfunctional congress.

Certainly, China does not need such to complete the takedown of our economy. With our economy, goes the fable of our status as "the last superpower" We simply are no longer a superpower. What we are is a nation in serious debt, borrowing and spending, and china is our financier.

China certainly is very capable of meeting us in a real military contest, should that be necessary, however, given our overall situation, China has absolutely no reason to be concerned with a thing, or need a war to achieve what is ready to fall of itself.
Taiwan? Not even a minor detail.

Reality, now, is, or certainly should be comming home to any thinking American.

Watching our politics, I can see the day fast approaching now.
 
Posts: 1893 | Registered: Fri 16 September 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Okay, we know our technology is vulnerable. Time to bring back the SR-71, or develop other technology that isn't subject to attack. We need that intel.
 
Posts: 5018 | Registered: Wed 30 June 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Time to stop all outsourcing and purchasing from China...
 
Posts: 1159 | Registered: Wed 22 February 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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To much reliance on high tech…..we utilize satellites for virtually every aspect of our war fighting, which is fine when pummeling the s*** out of some 3rd world country, but if it ever came to fighting the Chinese or the Russians (they also have some “sweet” EMP weapons to which we are highly venerable too)…..well lets just say our commanders would have to get their thumbs out of their a**es and get back to the basics. Wink


"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."
-Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
 
Posts: 3917 | Registered: Thu 12 February 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
<M_Wood51>
Posted
From the cited article:
quote:
As the Chinese test proved, such targets could be hit with medium-range missiles tipped with crude kill devices. GPS satellites are far higher, orbiting at about 12,600 miles. Many communications sats are in the 22,000-mile range. Destroying them requires a much more powerful and sophisticated long-range ballistic missile -- yet it can be done.
(Emphasis mine)
This should be a wakeup call for both the U.S. Naval Academy and the U.S. Coast Guard Academy to begin teaching celestial navigation skills again to their students who may become the next generation of navigators at sea. Over dependance on the satellite based Global Positioning System (GPS) might prove to become a mistake regardless of what nation provides the major threat to our birds in space.
quote:
My opinion is that there will never be a military confrontation with China.
You might want to revisit the history of our attitutes on Japan in the few years just prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. Many were saying the same thing. Never say never.
 
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All good points.
But some are arguable.

We have enough tracking to know what's going on with those little bastards all of the time.

You didn't see the homocidists fly into bejing now did ya?

Why? Because they don't support the west.

Had they, they'd all be speaking Chinese right now.

The Chinese are buying up everything the russians dumped.

They are also paying big money to get this off of the ground.

I have news for ya.

All I say is try it...

Hope they have their 500 Sunblocker ready...

We'd nuke em so fast their heads would spin.
 
Posts: 212 | Registered: Tue 26 December 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Ed594:
RE: http://www.military.com/forums/0,15240,145944,00.html

Well, First we basically sell of give away all the science involved, all the technology, and now suddenly we are suprised??

Exactly what else is there to say here?

We have sold almost everything of any industrial or commerical value to China, eliminated our tariffs which were the only real protection our workers or industries had against slave labor, and now were surprised when our economy is failing, we have unsafe products and food in our stores and food chain, and were suppost to be "surprised" or "shocked" by such events as this?

Suddenly, they demonstrate "their" military accomplishments, and now were "concerned"?

Look around and think a bit. China as good as OWNS our country right now.

And your taking all this political nonsense, these freak shows we call "major" parties so seriously once again? They have no solutions they ARE the problem!

Forgotten all the warnings you all had from Pat Buchanan
and Ross Perot? Still can't hear that giant sucking sound???

You know, we are getting what we have so very richly EARNED right now.
Before it was sold, it was stolen by an idiot American who thought he was going to get rich.
As for their military, they have us in one area and that's numbers. A good dust-up indeed and victory would be hard won.
 
Posts: 56 | Registered: Thu 02 November 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Old Fart #00

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There is much to be feared in China's headlong rush to space technology and their sabre-rattling should not be ignored. What will be done if they manage to achieve total dominance of the space arena? Are we prepared to attempt to stop them before they get there? They are currently so entrenched in our nation's trade and finances that it would be extremely difficult to penalize them through the use of tariffs and the purchase of fewer Chinese made goods which our nation has become so reliant upon. We must find a way soon to rap their knuckles good and let them know that the world will not stand idly by while they attempt to achieve total dominance of space and satellite technology.
 
Posts: 7738 | Registered: Thu 23 January 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by bighorsepunisher:
All good points.
But some are arguable.

We have enough tracking to know what's going on with those little bastards all of the time.

You didn't see the homocidists fly into bejing now did ya?

Why? Because they don't support the west.

Had they, they'd all be speaking Chinese right now.

The Chinese are buying up everything the russians dumped.

They are also paying big money to get this off of the ground.

I have news for ya.

All I say is try it...

Hope they have their 500 Sunblocker ready...

We'd nuke em so fast their heads would spin.


Hmm don't we have to have satellite's to guide them
 
Posts: 182 | Registered: Wed 13 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Want to take the first shot at the Chinese war machine? Walk into Wal Mart and pick up any item. Turn it over and read where it was manufactured. If it was made in China put it back down and walk out. You have just taken the first shot at an incoming Chinese ICBM. Over simplification you say? I don't think so.
 
Posts: 165 | Registered: Thu 28 April 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Time for our space defence folks get their head out of the sand and produce some type of defence capablity either with in a satalite or from the ground, mobile launchers if needed. or aircraft launch killer missiles.
 
Posts: 4501 | Registered: Fri 11 November 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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China has proven to be a villain for hundreds of years yet we still kiss their asses and buy their crap.
FREE AMERICA FROM CHINESE TYRANNY, BUY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS !!!!!!!!
 
Posts: 254 | Registered: Fri 04 March 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by melmarr:
China has proven to be a villain for hundreds of years yet we still kiss their asses and buy their crap.
FREE AMERICA FROM CHINESE TYRANNY, BUY AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS !!!!!!!!


Fascinating! Do tell us more.
 
Posts: 9726 | Registered: Wed 19 October 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Reminds me of a famous quote "well, well Ollie,[GW] thats another fine mess you got us into"

:"The United States "basically said it has the right to restrict the use of space to only its allies," Clark says. Adds Jeffrey G. Lewis, an arms control expert at the New America Foundation: "Much of the world was appalled at the tone of the policy. One British newspaper columnist basically said it made space the 51st state:"
This is NO small deal.
Essentially the whole world had agreed that no one would do 'dumbass' stuff in space, ie, make declarative statements of "ownership" or start blowing up others satellites.

Since we have become dependent on satellites for just about everything we do in this modern era, we will be blind, deaf and out of communication capabilities except for local microwave and HF/UHF/SHF point to point. No more global comms. Land warrior systems will be down. UAV's will only have local line of sight control. GPS out of service and sat missle guidance for smart bombs will be OOS. Inertial navs will be useable. Essentially we will be restricted to WW2 tech to fight the 'next' war.

Since our good buddy friend China sells us junk and gives our enemies modern missle tech and other hi tech weapons, with the money we send them to outsource our entire material existance.

Our leaders, in their greed, selfishness and eagerness to control the world with the new world order without considering the consequences, has gotten us into deep poop.With our permission of course, lots of profits to be made, by them. The rest of us get to eat cake.

Never thought I'd live to see the day that my govt would turn on me [us] in the name of profiteering for a few big companies. Worse yet, is that our govt would take away the freedoms that we have all fought and died for our entire existance. We are now the world bully and some even go so far as to consider us as financial terrorists.

We got BIG problems ahead of us that bravado, chest thumping and hooohaaa wont solve.

Dont we have any real diplomats and politicians that believe in common sense and reestablishing some kind of decent relations with other countries. Even our allies are starting to shun us. We cant afford to lose everything good that we have done.
 
Posts: 747 | Registered: Thu 07 September 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Migbuster:
Time for our space defence folks get their head out of the sand and produce some type of defence capablity either with in a satalite or from the ground, mobile launchers if needed. or aircraft launch killer missiles.


You'd need those sites in Southern Russia that GWB decided he didn't need.

Hell's bells don'tcha know that the Rooskies could knock down all the satellites???

Tarnation! They could be firin' up their pre-ignition systems right now. Imagine all the fender benders if cell phones went off air right now!!! Too horrible to contemplate.
 
Posts: 9726 | Registered: Wed 19 October 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by AFRet91:
Reminds me of a famous quote "well, well Ollie,[GW] thats another fine mess you got us into"

:"The United States "basically said it has the right to restrict the use of space to only its allies," Clark says. Adds Jeffrey G. Lewis, an arms control expert at the New America Foundation: "Much of the world was appalled at the tone of the policy. One British newspaper columnist basically said it made space the 51st state:"
This is NO small deal.
Essentially the whole world had agreed that no one would do 'dumbass' stuff in space, ie, make declarative statements of "ownership" or start blowing up others satellites.

Since we have become dependent on satellites for just about everything we do in this modern era, we will be blind, deaf and out of communication capabilities except for local microwave and HF/UHF/SHF point to point. No more global comms. Land warrior systems will be down. UAV's will only have local line of sight control. GPS out of service and sat missle guidance for smart bombs will be OOS. Inertial navs will be useable. Essentially we will be restricted to WW2 tech to fight the 'next' war.

Since our good buddy friend China sells us junk and gives our enemies modern missle tech and other hi tech weapons, with the money we send them to outsource our entire material existance.

Our leaders, in their greed, selfishness and eagerness to control the world with the new world order without considering the consequences, has gotten us into deep poop.With our permission of course, lots of profits to be made, by them. The rest of us get to eat cake.

Never thought I'd live to see the day that my govt would turn on me [us] in the name of profiteering for a few big companies. Worse yet, is that our govt would take away the freedoms that we have all fought and died for our entire existance. We are now the world bully and some even go so far as to consider us as financial terrorists.

We got BIG problems ahead of us that bravado, chest thumping and hooohaaa wont solve.

Dont we have any real diplomats and politicians that believe in common sense and reestablishing some kind of decent relations with other countries. Even our allies are starting to shun us. We cant afford to lose everything good that we have done.


Right On! Applause
 
Posts: 9726 | Registered: Wed 19 October 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post



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A year or so ago China and India entered into a pact to become the dominant economic force on the planet.
We are paying $3+ per gallon for gas, but being the short attention span, garbage-news-fed society we have been molded into by Madison Ave., Hollywierd and the news manglers, we think it's becuase the Bushitler Family started the war in Iraq over oil! I mean Alec Baldwin and sean Penn told us so, so it MUST be true!
It couldn't be because China has been going around to the OPEC nations acting like some benevolent zen master that doesn't interfere in other nation's business like that corrupt bully America, so as to secure shipment of crude that may have been U.S. bound.
Nah! It HAS to be the Bush family!
And of course, Slick Willy was only trying to reduce international tensions when he did his Benedict Arnold thing with the missle technology to China and nuke technology to North Korea.
As far as outsourcing, look to the unions. THEY priced the U.S. out of competion. What businessman would pay $18 to manufacture a widget here in the U.S. that he could get made elsewhere for $5. Are American businesses obligated to work at a loss just to keep union boys in benefits?
We, as a society, send the message to the world that we are so self-absorbed as to have lost the backbone that made us a superpower. Our news media works overtime tearing us down before the world and eroding America's will to stand up to those who would subjugate the world for their religious and political purposes.
We're like a weightlifter who has decided that Twinkies are a health food and exercise is passe.
We made our bed, or rather, we allowed liberalism to make it, so guess where we sleep now!
 
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