First let me say that I have been in long enough now to have seen both sides.. BM is full of a Long Heritage and Tradition. We are now part of all the Legacy and Tradition that follows a BM. And those who come to us from "A" School are we teaching them the same??
My view is and will always remain- A Striker will be more productive and take on our Traditions and be so called "Hard for the Guard" than a shake n Bake BM type (BMA). They Qualify and Certify faster and have Pride and a certain Cockiness about them, And I think they should.
My Question to you is..... How many of you are truly walking in the shadows of those before us? And Are we teaching our newer Baby Boats the same things we learned while coming up the ranks. By those I mean The Few that want to Strike..
Also are we letting our "A" Schooler down and giving them training with a certain Prejudice??

Costabile,
Your points are very good. I have not thought about it that way. I do agree that to keep our BM's traditional they should show a willingness in the field and be motivated , so when they graduate A school they will be able to hit the ground running so to speak and get Qual'd quickly. I guess my frustration is. Us who struck had it, Our mentors put it solely on our shoulders that way when we made 3rd we were ready for COXN, OOD and BO,which we had been working on while striking. The "a" schoolers don't bring that CAN DO attitude to the table, its almost like they expect us to hand these Qual's out to them, and to me the attitude is also almost like they are doing us a favor. By even joining the Guard. But there again with what you said we dont have the time to train a Non-rate to me is the same trying to train someone we expect more from who brings no experience but "A" school. Just frustrated in the lack of commitment it take to be a FULLY Qual'd BM and watch our junior people not push for it as hard as we did to get where we are at today.

Hmmmm, where do I start on this one?

I went to "A" and "C" school in 1985 and went straight to Station Islamorada (FL Keys). I qualified Cox'n within five months, most of the problem is area familiarization with all the reefs, cuts, sand bars, etc.

I was the station's training officer for boat certifications. A boarding officer, section leader.

Later, I served 17 years as a Marine Enforcement Officer, then Sr. MEO and operated boats up to 52' in length as a Vessel Commander. I know of a number of BM "A" graduates who are now driving boats with CBP, MK "A" grads as well.

10 yrs on a Warrent Entry Tactical team.

Got my USCG Master's License.

Not motivated???

Many "A" schoolers went far more than I ever did...just ask a few of the current Master Chiefs, Sr. Chiefs and Warrant Bos'ns. All probably have been or are OinC's or CO's.

If you have found a few "A" school grads who you felt weren't exactly motivated, don't assume that is what all "A" school graduates are like.

Many strikers that I came across were only striking because it was them who were afraid of being transferred from their gravy station to a cutter or that they didn't feel they could learn at the pace the school required.

In my case, I served 20 months on a 378' and 10 months at a station before finally heading off to "A" school.

Why is it that branches like the Navy, Marines, Air Force all send their people from bootcamp off to schools? My son went from Parris Island, to Marine Combat Training to Amphibious Assault Vehicle schools without ever seeing the field. Somehow, he's doing pretty well for himself down at Camp Lejeune, about to make E-4 in about 1 1/2 yrs of service.


Don

Well I have only been in for 27 months now and I started out at a Buoy Tender in the Great Lakes. I was there for a little over a year and I struck 3 different rates at the same time. I couldn't find a rate that suited me. I successfully struck DC, MK and BM. Only to be sent to school because my BMC thought I wasn't being challenged enough. And because no one could teach me Manuevering Boards appropriately. Also in striking the rates I did, I learned that DC's have the crap work of the Coast Guard, MK's stay late and BM's run the show. So which rate do you think I went? I had my name on the MK "A" school list and the only reason I did that was because my old BMC who is now a Warrant told me I had to have a Security Clearance to go BM. So finally after much deliberation with the SECCEN I got my security clearance, took my name off the MK school list and immediately was put on the BM school list. Somehow my name was put on in Jan of 07 and I was in school in Mar07. I finished number 7 out of 48 students and I learned much more there at school than I did in the field. Now I am breaking in COXS'N, BDS, Boat Crew, R and S, as well as the # 2 guy in the Deck dept at the ANT I am stationed in. So, as far as striking being better suited for gun ho coasties, I think that it really depends on the person and that person's command.

quote:

Originally posted by 13354853:
I successfully struck DC, MK and BM.

Damn...that's pretty impressive! Learning those other rates should be highly beneficial to you during your career.

Nice job!

Don

I have a question is there an "A" school for a BM or the only option is 'striking'?

I never attended BM "A" school, I sruck, and do beleive that I' am a better BM for it. I will not say that the BM A school is a bad idea, but I do not beleive in sending someone straight from Boot Camp to the school. I feel that individuals wanting to go BM should be sent out into the feild proir to going to the school. The is a great deal of knowledge that you learn from being a non-rate, as well as I feel it makes you a better leader. I get tired of seeing A school graduates who show up thinking that they have the knowledge of a BM3 that struck, or even that of a Seamen that knows the job. Respect is earned in my eyes, it should not be expected. I have seen a few BM A schooler's that do turn out to be very good BM's, but the number that don't greatly outweighs them.

A questions I have for you guys, is what you think of the level of recruit you are getting at yout unit's these days? I have seen many people come in from Boot Camp, with the expectation that they are owed something, I know in my younger day, I had to prove to my BM3 that I wanted to be there. I owed it to him to get qualified. Your thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by 17202208:
I have a question is there an "A" school for a BM or the only option is 'striking'?

BM "A" School and "C" (Coxswain) School is located at the Reserve Training Center (RTC) in Yorktown, VA.

I went through in 1985.

Don

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Boats15:
I never attended BM "A" school, I sruck, and do beleive that I' am a better BM for it. I will not say that the BM A school is a bad idea, but I do not beleive in sending someone straight from Boot Camp to the school. I feel that individuals wanting to go BM should be sent out into the feild proir to going to the school. The is a great deal of knowledge that you learn from being a non-rate, as well as I feel it makes you a better leader. I get tired of seeing A school graduates who show up thinking that they have the knowledge of a BM3 that struck, or even that of a Seamen that knows the job. Respect is earned in my eyes, it should not be expected. I have seen a few BM A schooler's that do turn out to be very good BM's, but the number that don't greatly outweighs them.

QUOTE]

Maybe I'm saying this because, "Well, it's what I did." but I truly feel that my two years on a 378 and one year at a SAR Station helped me a lot before going to "A" and "C" School. Like you stated, time in the field prior to "A" School will almost always make you a better BM. How could it not?

Who would you rather have, a BM3 who did well in "A" school right after bootcamp or a BM3 who as a Seaman participated in UNREP operations on a 378', boat lowering details in rough seas underway, working a large buoy on an ATON boat, actual anchoring and mooring details instead of reading about them, then taking a test?

Don

quote:

Why is it that branches like the Navy, Marines, Air Force all send their people from bootcamp off to schools? My son went from Parris Island, to Marine Combat Training to Amphibious Assault Vehicle schools without ever seeing the field. Somehow, he's doing pretty well for himself down at Camp Lejeune, about to make E-4 in about 1 1/2 yrs of service.

The difference is that those services, as in your son's case, do not give them a promotion to E-4 automatically from leaving school. They are trained in their specific area, but they aren't automatically given a NCO or PO position. They still have to start at the bottom and get promoted to E-4. If guarenteed A school people came out as an SNBM and had to remain that until they passed a BM3 test, I am sure it would change the mindset of a lot of people.

An example of the guarenteed A school thing not working well: I had a guy from Guarenteed BM A school that has been at the unit for almost a year and he hasn't even finished BTM training. Furthermore, I asked him to do a quick PR for some cleaning supplies and his response was "What is a PR?" The fact of the matter is that although A school may teach you how to tie knots and the basics of being a BM, it most certainly does not teach you how to become a Petty Officer. Now going from the fleet to A school is fine because one should have had enough experience as a non-rate to learn what to expect from a Petty Officer, but a Boot to A doesn't get that experience, therefore they come to a unit, make third a few weeks later (which is BS IMO), and are put in charge of non-rates who don't respect the person at all because he doesn't know how to lead, manage work projects, task direct, or in some cases even how to correctly wear the uniform. Just my 2 cents.....

BM2 Sends

As for boot to A School I think it is a terrible idea for the BM rate as previously poted on here by many. You definately need to be a leadr to be a BM and no field experience doesn't help.

As for non motivated A Schoolers I say it depends on the guy. I am an A Schooler who is a department head on an 87', deck in charge of all deck evolutions, break in cox'n, qualified BO, qualified QMOW and EOW, inport OOD, does the WEPO work, and R&S, while doing my BM3 role. Yes alot of this was given to me by saying "BM3 here is your new role!", but I feel if it was given to some BM3s they may have crumbled under the pressure, and given up.

I really don't want to mess up and want to stay in the BM2 billet. Thats why I do the best I can and am busting my butt to get BM2 before July, before the new guy gets here. SO I think it just depends on the person, not how they are taught.

BM3

As someone that did not attend BM "A" school, but eventually ended up there as the Senior Instructor, I felt when they did away with the Marlinespike Seamanship lab, and Rules of the Road, the BM "A" school went from making BM's to making crewman.

It is obvious there are many things those that strike will do that those who attend a school will never do. A prime example of that is surface prep. Due to time constraints and weather conditions this is probably not covered in "A" school as it should be. The list goes on and on....

While I'm a firm believer in the striker program, the "A" school does try to produce quality BM's. Once again it's "Needs of the service" driven...

Wray...

I went to A-school right after pit-stop. I feel A school gave you the basics but as a striker you learn so much more to be a better BM. I have a SN who is striking BM at my unit and he drives me to be a better BM. I teach him the things he needs to know which is good as i refreash before the lesson is giving, and he demonsrtates what he has learned. It is the best all around.

I struck BM3, I would have not done it any other way. Having said that, the way I did it does not make it right! I have seen BM A School grads who were modivated to get Qualed and did so. There are some advantages to both. One of the advantages to school is they teach you MO Boards. This will also help on the BM2 test. The advantage to striking is the hands on experience! One half dozen or the other it depends on the person!!

Hmmmm...

I'll say it like this, when was the last time you heard of a person flunking out of BM A? Like some one already said its a numbers driven world right now. It doesn't matter as much if you struck or went to A school, but rather if you came from the field or boot, IMO. The world is throwing us lemons, lets make some lemonaide.

-Mike

P.S. I struck by the way.

Just an idea if your unit department head has no problem with it....

On the Chase (1983-1984), I was allowed to strike the whole time my name was on the BM School list. The BMC let me run the foc'sle a couple of times during mooring detail. I really appreciated him having faith in a 19 yr old SN.

A BM3 took me up into Support Center Boston and we spliced all new mooring lines for the Chase.

When I went off to school, I luckily had all that experience to add to what the school taught.

I couldn't tell you if there is now any policy in reference to striking while remaining on a school list.

Don

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 21yrsUSCGUSCS,

quote:

I couldn't tell you if there is now any policy in reference to striking while remaining on a school list.

Don

You can strike while on the "A" School list. When you complete everything, if you put your name on the advancement list, you need to take your name off the school list. I struck and got my orders to school the same day I finished my EPQ's (I was drafting my chit to go on the supplemental list when my orders came in). I did some quick math and concluded that I would advance about the same time either way so I went to school. I think if it was one or the other, striking would absolutely be the way to go. But I think if you can do both, you will learn somthing from each that the other couldn't provide.

I was a BM "A" schooler. I went to a station afterwards and struggled for months on end where the "strikers" surpassed me left and right. It took me a long time to break-in coxswain. I basically graduated, got slapped a set of crows, and was the "shake and bake BM". I had to start all over and learn what a BM does when I arrived at my unit. I was 10 feet tall and bullet proof when I arrive with my purtty new shiny crows and was broke down quick. So I commend strikers. It takes a lot of discipline for an E-3 to have the drive to want E-4. I had to start all over, and it was a long hard road for me. I hated it then but Im happy I had it the way I did now.

quote:

Originally posted by CoxnMike:

I'll say it like this, when was the last time you heard of a person flunking out of BM A?

There were 3 people who "flunked" out of my class at BM "A" school. If you can't hack it, you won't be dragged along for too long.

Flunked or forced to move on for drinking to much? Compared to the probably thousands who, while stationed on a cutter that they just could not take any longer, and went some other rate that didnt have a waiting list longer than five minutes. "Hack it"? Its not BUD/S, its BM "A". Its really not that hard. BM has become the get out of the unit your at quick school. I'm not saying that everyone that goes there is that way, but you know you saw people in your class that where like that. Most likly the afore mentioned three.

-Mike