quote:

Originally posted by swremwin:
Hello Travis. Thanks. Frankly I haven't been over here much lately...Especially since the thread that had so many posts,info and links on it was wiped off the boards...

How ya doing Swremwin;
I came up with this thread to show folks that the North had to win the war at all costs, (including drafting anybody that could hold a weapon. That's one reason for so many more Union soldiers being killed than those of the South. lincoln realized the consequences the Union government would face if the North lost. If the North wins...they can tear up documents and rewrite history. After all...who'd ever listen to the defeated so called low life South's explanation of the causes of the Civil War. Welllll, it's been working...but thanks to the Internet and documents overlooked the truth is finally coming out for all to see.

You, Cavbunny and in another thread Nathan have brought a lot of the cover-up to light so all could see.

P.S. BTW, What threads with links were wiped from the board?

Travis

This message has been edited. Last edited by: travisab1,

Hi again Travis. The Thread was started by a female college student who said she needed to do a term paper/project about the Civil War (or War between the States) and she asked for input/info.

After starting the thread/firestorm...she left and never replied. {btw-I hate that when people post a question, and then others return an answer/post...but NO responce or "thanks" from the thread starter- }

There were many pages on that thread and some Lincolnites ran to the Moderators and whinned like little spoiled kids when they could not argue a point or put forth facts.

I recall posting a couple of times in that thread, including some book titles for people to read... In less than 24 hours one of the posters replied that basically I was a slave-holding plantation owner/kkk member/ and a village idiot because I dare post a title of a book that didn't grovel at the feet of the war criminal's statue. I replied to that person that he could not possibly have read even one of the titles in less than 24 hours...

It's like the saying: ..."My mind is made up---Don't confuse me with the facts".

Honest to God, I've been there. I won't mention any names but the whiner knows who he is. He hasn't posted here or anywhere I know of for a while now.

People and a lot of Northerners are realizing all they were taught in school isn't carved in stone. Hopefully before long folks will come to accept the South as folks who know what they want in a government buttttt, you can't fight and win when the odds are soooo ovgerwhelming.

Of course the South never thought lincoln would not recognize their succession as a part of their constitutional rights/states rights and rein hell down on the South with every Yankee that could carry a weapon. That why over twice as many Union soldiers were killed then Confederate soldiers. lincoln and his Generals probably didn't put their recruits through no more than two weeks basic training. They were most likely thrown out on the front lines to die like pawns for more experienced soldiers to follow behind if the truth be known.

Travis

The Reason For This Thread
“Had The South Won The War”
I didn’t post this thread in wishful thinking.

The reason for this thread is to find out why the Union, (i.e. Lincoln and his maybe henchmen) thought this war was necessary and why the “I Don’t Give A Damn What It Cost” attitude of the Northern War planners.

After seeing the body count of over 400,000 Union soldiers and over 200,000 Confederate Soldiers.

This makes you wonder, WHY???
It’s my understanding that the North destroyed a lot of documents. Is there any way to find out how much basic training the North put their recruits through before putting them in the war to face death?

I want to know how much basic training, (weeks in teaching raw recruits how to fight a determined enemy, {The Southern Confederate soldiers} who were fighting for their freedom from BIG GOVERNMENT) the Northern Union recruits went through to fight for lincoln’s war. I want to know why so many of the North had to die.

I figure if we determine what would have happened “Had The South Won The War” we’ll find out…Why The War in the first place. I’m sure a lot more will surface during this discussion.

Those of you that are well seasoned in Google Searches may well find the reasons and hopefully never faced with such a stupid task such as Another Civil War.

Again, my $.02 worth.

Travis

Where you is????

I don't blame you for keepin' it to yourself folks..
I give it up TOOOOOOO

Travis

Grits.

Lots and lots of grits. That's what would happen.


(and chicken, but hey, I'm not complaining...)

The training for union and confederate troops were the bare basics of the manual of arms, loading by the numbers and to march. Some camps of instruction were only a couple of weeks and off they go and some camps trained for a couple of months. It just depended on the camp commanders and what actual training his cadre actually had. Some were West Point some were VMI and some were the slugs off back streets who found a way to bully and B,S their way as camp cadre.

Hello Poopgob & Bangfxr;
The service today has a couple of months or more teaching recruits how to kill and keep from being killed. The thought of over 400,000 compared to over 200,000 folks losing their lives makes you wonder how things like this could have ever happened here in the states.

As for grits a chicken.....well, I love it and love the shrimp and crabs too don't forget.

Travis

Yeah, I wanted to say something, but really didn't have anything intelligent to say... I honestly don't feel like taking the effort to consider a historical "what-if" right now (Junior year's burning me out, and it's only Oct. )

Gents I've read alot of the posts on this thread, but none of them have touched on the consequences of European involvement. There was none, but there are some very interesting facts and incidents that did occur.
The English did quite seriously consider helping the CSA. But the slavery question was a major stumbling block as was English law which had outlawed slavery a century before.
The offer was made of a British army landing in the southern Unites States to aid the Confederacy. But upon completion of hostilies that army would remain in the South for an indefinite period of time. There were Southern factions that wanted to be reunited with the English and come back under the English crown.
As we know that did not happen as Jeffereson Davis and others did not find those conditions acceptable.
Also Napoleon the III offered to help if he was given a free hand in the Southwest. He wanted New Mexico, Arizona Territory and Texas returned to the Spanish empire. Of course we know that didn't occur because the clamor in Texas was deafening and they would most likely have revolted.
So there were a great many other possible solutions that could have resulted in a far different country as we know it today.

Trav-
two things. first you mention black troops dying in service of the Union Jack, that is the British flag. Second, you state that no confederates were charged with war crimes. false. Confederate Captain Henry Wirz was tried, convicted, and hung for crimes against humanity. check your history.

Shnides;

I didn't know that. Why didn't Sherman get it for the killing spree when he and his henchmen killed all those men, raping and killing all the women and children, burning houses, crops ETC... all the way to the sea? Maybe that war crime thingy only works on Southerners huh? Yup, must be or surely lincoln would have been hung for allllll the war crimes he commited.

I really never heard that. Sorry.

P.S. I forgot to mention that I got this info from Dave, sorry Dave. I had to get up and correct this error.

Travis

This message has been edited. Last edited by: travisab1,

Shnides;

Type Lincoln and Hitler in Googles search string. You'll be amazed at the pro's and con's. Don't pinpoint me. lincoln is fast being known for what he was.

Travis

quote:

Originally posted by Shnides:
Trav-
two things. first you mention black troops dying in service of the Union Jack, that is the British flag. Second, you state that no confederates were charged with war crimes. false. Confederate Captain Henry Wirz was tried, convicted, and hung for crimes against humanity. check your history.

Shnides;


I didn’t notice your full post until now but here’s an answer for you…

“The Civil War was a particularly brutal period in American History, and few places were as brutal as Andersonville.

Captain Henry Wirz was the commandant of Andersonville Prison and the only Confederate soldier convicted and executed for war crimes during the Civil War. His conviction is in controversy still today. To some, he is guilty of atrocities not repeated until NAZI Germany, and to others, he is a martyr for the Great Southern Cause.”
Here’s the link…
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Wirz/Wirz.htm

Things have changed a lot since I was in the Navy back in the 60’s. We flew the Stars and Stripes off the fantail of my destroyer and on the forecastle there was yet another flag pole. Here we flew the Blue Star Spangled Banner…just the Stars with the blue background alone without the Red and White Stripes. We called this…The Union Jack because it had all the 50 states of the Union accounted for in the Stars inlaid with that Blue background.

No fella, I didn’t make a mistake. Even the Internet keeps referring to the British flag but you asked those who served before America become so socialized if they remember the Union Jack as I do.

God, those were the good old days.

Travis

First of all let me say that this is just my personal opinion nothing more. I do not think that the south ever thought they could win this war totally ...I do think that they felt they could defend thier states from aggression while in the mean time inflecting enough damage on the north that the citizen's of the union would tire of the conflict...loose heart and sue for peace ...I also feel strongly that the south suceeded MAINLY because thier States Rights were being treaded on ...the slave issue was a bi product of States Rights ...as for why Lincoln had to die I find that an odd question ..I suppose he was guilty of some bad judgement but no more guilty then Roosevelt for most likely suckering us into WWII ...again JMHO ....by the way Travis do you believe in the tooth fairy..some of this stuff makes me wonder.

OFC

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OneFatCat,

quote:

Originally posted by travisab1:
Simon;

I see you haven't caught up on your reading yet. You still have that North Good...South Bad attitude. No need for anyone group like the KKK.
The North was going to put Jefferson Davis on trial for the death of Lincoln until someone, maybe a lawyer told them to forget that sht. We're in enough trouble with the deaths of over 630,000 Americans on our hands. That's why no-one from the Southern Army was tried for war crimes. The North was at fault totally...

Well, ain't we really on top of things what with fighting the American Civil War all over again and all that rot? Nothing like Monday-morning quarterbacks, armed-chair generals and a bunch of cracked-pot ideas. Indeed, why I've even bothered to respond is quite beyond me.

1] Jefferson Davis was never put on trial because it was pointed-out that the right of any state to seceed from the Union had never been legally established. Therefore what many states considered to be the remedy for an out-of-control federal government - secession -had yet to be legally determined. So if Davis was put on trial and in the course of the trial it should be determined that the Southern States had a lawful right to seceed, then the federal government could have been faced with the repayment of enormous war repairations for waging an undeclared war on a sovereign country! Consequently, it was deemed far more prudent to never bring Davis to trial than to risk having secession declared lawful.

2] While I don't have a list of names, some Southerners were indeed put on trial for treason and duely executed.

3] It was not possible for the South to win! These United States of America exist as a result of God's promises to Abraham and to Israel. Therefore God could not permit the division of a prophecied nation into 2 or more factions. Consequently, the United States of America had to remain just that - united. The only question that remained was under what circumstances would that union be preserved? With Lincoln out of the way, thanks to the Illuminati and/or the Freemasons, that left our august leaders with the option of assuming a victor's role for those in power over the vanqueshed South. So without any more compassion than the big-oil boys now exhibit for American motorists, the political leaders of the day and, no doubt headed by Edwin Staunton, imposed some of the harshest conditions imaginiable on their brethren - the breakaway states. Even post-Hitler Germany fared better than the South did.

4] All of this hot air about refighting the Civil War and 50 cents will get you an operator on a pay phone or a copy of the daily edition of the Washington Post. I find several threads devoted to refighting the Civil War, but try as I might, I can't seem to find where it has made one particle's worth of difference in either the Wall Street Journal, the Washington Post, or USA Today. But maybe we can design and print-up some really fancy notes of appreciation for your post-war generalship on this forum.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AirDefndr1968,

NO ONE from the South was tried for war crimes????

Henry Wirtz, Commander of Andersonville Prison, was tried, convicted and executed.

I guess someone needs to catch up on HIS reading.

quote:

Originally posted by OneFatCat:
First of all let me say that this is just my personal opinion nothing more. I do not think that the south ever thought they could win this war totally ...I do think that they felt they could defend thier states from aggression while in the mean time inflecting enough damage on the north that the citizen's of the union would tire of the conflict...loose heart and sue for peace ...I also feel strongly that the south suceeded MAINLY because thier States Rights were being treaded on ...the slave issue was a bi product of States Rights ...as for why Lincoln had to die I find that an odd question ..I suppose he was guilty of some bad judgement but no more guilty then Roosevelt for most likely suckering us into WWII ...again JMHO ....by the way Travis do you believe in the tooth fairy..some of this stuff makes me wonder.

OFC

During the run-up to the war (war clouds had been gathering for more than a decade) the Southern legislators had surrepticiously tried to move armories and other military installations into the South with an eye on seizing them when the war broke. But any sensible person could figure out that the North had far more industry and manpower and that the South was doomed in any kind of protracted war. The only real hope for the South, which never really materialized, was foreign support and/or intervention.

Lincoln was assasinated for the usual reason, after the war was over he stood in the way of those who intended to plunder the South. Since Lincoln was stressing recociliation, it was obvious that he was going to be a problem for all who had plunder in their hearts. Therefore it was simpler to get rid of him than to fight him every step of the way. Johnson was generally considered weak and "controlable". Therefore, Lincoln was the real problem, and there was not the remotest chance that he could be turned or impeached. In short, the people who planned to plunder the South decreed that Lincoln had to go. Et tu Brutus? Et tu Stanton?

Moreover, there are stories that Boothe survived into the 20th century, which still persist until today. Did someone spirit him out of the country to Canada or Europe? Some prudent DNA tests might rewrite history.

Airdefender, you are presuming too much in naming Stanton as part of the conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln.
Thirty years ago a movie came out form a company Sun International Pictures. It was called the Lincoln Conspiracy and offered supposedly unimpeachable proof that Stanton, Colonel Lafayette Baker and others conspired to kill Lincoln.
Sorry, it was bull. The proof was what certain people were reading between the lines in some of the personal papers of Stanton and others. There was NO real proof at all!
Many years ago I had access to a very great deal of this info. Including papers, dispatches and letters of Colonel Baker. There is nothing there that even suggests anything to do with killing Lincoln.
Baker is not remembered because he helped claim the reward for the capture of john Wilkes booth. A thing at the time officers were not supposed to do. He also was very effective in the counter-intellignece work in and around Washington. MUCH more so than Pinkerton. Pinkerton was a fool!
As for the double of Booth, the supposed other agent, working for Baker, that's crap! They base that on the differences in the body when the autopsies were done. That is also crap!
bodies left in heat and humidity conditions like Booth's will start to decay and cause changes in appearance. I've talked to morticans and Forenstic doctors about this. Booth's body was left in the heat on a monitor and then the autopsy was done. Blue eyes would and will turn dark, the body can shrink and make the person appear older than they are. Booth was indentifed by his broken leg and a previous broken leg he was known to have suffered. Another way was that Booth was extremely BOWLEGGED, a fact he tried to conceal with baggy full cut pants.
Lincoln was known to be suffering from arithritis and had a disentending of the joints. This is a classic symtom of Marfan's Disease. Doctor's have looked and studied the cast made of Lincoln's hands late in his life and most agree that Lincoln was suffering from this disease. It was doubtful whether he would have lived long enough to serve out his full term.
Yes, Johnson was weak and controlable. Also Stanton didn't want to be in the cabinet he wanted to be on the Supreme court. Who do you think got Daniel Sickles off on the murder charge of murdering Francis Scott Key's son?
Stanton was ruthless and nasty, but he didn't formulate the plot to kill Lincoln.

quote:

Originally posted by JPope:
Airdefender, you are presuming too much in naming Stanton as part of the conspiracy to assassinate Lincoln.
Thirty years ago a movie came out form a company Sun International Pictures. It was called the Lincoln Conspiracy and offered supposedly unimpeachable proof that Stanton, Colonel Lafayette Baker and others conspired to kill Lincoln.
Sorry, it was bull. The proof was what certain people were reading between the lines in some of the personal papers of Stanton and others. There was NO real proof at all!
Many years ago I had access to a very great deal of this info. Including papers, dispatches and letters of Colonel Baker. There is nothing there that even suggests anything to do with killing Lincoln.
Baker is not remembered because he helped claim the reward for the capture of john Wilkes booth. A thing at the time officers were not supposed to do. He also was very effective in the counter-intellignece work in and around Washington. MUCH more so than Pinkerton. Pinkerton was a fool!
As for the double of Booth, the supposed other agent, working for Baker, that's crap! They base that on the differences in the body when the autopsies were done. That is also crap!
bodies left in heat and humidity conditions like Booth's will start to decay and cause changes in appearance. I've talked to morticans and Forenstic doctors about this. Booth's body was left in the heat on a monitor and then the autopsy was done. Blue eyes would and will turn dark, the body can shrink and make the person appear older than they are. Booth was indentifed by his broken leg and a previous broken leg he was known to have suffered. Another way was that Booth was extremely BOWLEGGED, a fact he tried to conceal with baggy full cut pants.
Lincoln was known to be suffering from arithritis and had a disentending of the joints. This is a classic symtom of Marfan's Disease. Doctor's have looked and studied the cast made of Lincoln's hands late in his life and most agree that Lincoln was suffering from this disease. It was doubtful whether he would have lived long enough to serve out his full term.
Yes, Johnson was weak and controlable. Also Stanton didn't want to be in the cabinet he wanted to be on the Supreme court. Who do you think got Daniel Sickles off on the murder charge of murdering Francis Scott Key's son?
Stanton was ruthless and nasty, but he didn't formulate the plot to kill Lincoln.

You know, the glorious thing about a conspiracy is that it is purely speculation and almost never provable with certitutde. But one thing that I have learned in the 30 plus years I've lived in the Washington, DC area is that nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING that happens is what it appears to be. Invariably, there are always at least 2 stories behind everything, and sometimes there are 3 or more stories. Plus, I love a good mystery, and what could possibly be jucier than a presidential asassination?

Now I will agree that hard evidence is about as scarce as hen's teeth. After all, if we could solve it, then it would no longer be the mystery/conspiracy plot that many Americans love. I will also readily agree that, apart from DNA testing, we may never get to the "bare bones" of the matter. After all, men in positions of power have long known about the precept of plausible deniablity. Also they command incredible resources to alter or change whatever they please.

But in dealing with the affairs of life over the last 64 years, this much I have learned: the one thing that men absolutely cannot do is escape from themselves. You can take a man and provide him with a new ID, a totally different background and history, new documents and even new fingerprints. You can get plastic surgeons to change his appearance, change his hair color, and almost anything else you care to name. But what neither you nor any person on earth can do is somehow reach inside that man and change his very being! Therefore, if there is to be such a thing as nabbing the guy and blowing his cover, you must examine him for some moment of weakness when some specific trait (a finger to the nose, plucking or raising an eyebrow, an itching ear, or some other distinctive thing) gives away the game. Furthermore, over time you may be certain that some moment of weakness will reveal exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. In short, each and every one of us has these little, insignificant traits that make us the individuals that we are, and no amount of documentation, training, or surgery can erradicate it. In a word, we simply cannot change our own spots or escape from ourselves.

This is precisely the kind of thing that gave away Stanton following Lincoln's asassination. For days Stanton was peevish and ill-tempered. Boothe had fled through southern Maryland and was reported holed-up in a barn in Virginia. Word reached Stanton that the barn was surrounded and Boothe was cornered. At this Stanton slumped into a chair and put his head in his hands. Then the messenger continued that the barn had been fired and that Boothe was dead. Whereupon, Stanton lifted his head to an erect position and, without a word, for the first time in over a week he smiled broadly. Then he dismissed the messenger.

Grant you, this kind of "evidence" would never be allowed in any competent court in the world. But if I were a lawyer trying the case, even at the risk of contempt, I would have to somehow get this before the jury, even if they were instructed to ignore it. Why? Because it reveals something that is very important. It shows Stanton at what must have been one of his weaker moments, and it shows us something about the man's inner workings.

So you be the judge. Am I really presuming too much? Was Stanton involved in Lincoln's asassination? I'll grant you that the conspirators covered their tracks well; and while I may never be able to show you irrefutable, ironclad proof, I think I can say with certainty that Stanton was in it up to his eyeballs.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: AirDefndr1968,