I know that this question is based mostly on opinion but I thought it might be interesting to hear which of these two brilliant and extreamly capable calvery offices you thought contributed the most to their army ...I realize that they were in two different theaters of operation one being in the Army of Northern Viginia and the other the Army of Tennessee ..but share with me your thoughts as to which of the two was "The quintessential Calvery Officer" and why?

OFC

Whowas the better Cavalry officer? wow! I could write dozens of paragraphs about this, but you've restricted us to two choices. I know of at least four more men I could put in that category. They weren't as famous, dashing or ruthless, but without them there would have been no superior cavalry on either side.
John Buford, James Wilson, Wade Hampton, General Gordon, the Cavalry Gordon who lead Stuart's Tarheels. These men have to figure in the equation also. More later, I have an extremely busy day starting in about twenty minutes.
Last day of school for grandson and I meet with an agent later. They like one of my books!

J.P. It would have been hard to include everyone so I used two of the more discussed calvery men ...personally I would like to have included Joe Wheeler ..I mean here is a man who had 36 staff offices fall next to him and over 15 horses shot out from under him.. but I kept it to just these two ...so you did not give your opinion on your choice (as if I did not already know)

OFC

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OneFatCat,

Forrest. He was a better modern commander, using his cavalry as Dragoons/mounted infantry to their maximum effect. His tactics were closer to that of a modern mechanized cavalry unit, with speed, mobility, and staying power.

Actually Thrust so did the others. John Buford being the original one in the US Army to do that.
Why? Because he had fought Indians on the plains before the war,as had Stuart. He knew that the dismounted tactics were the best for the rugged wooded country and terrain that was so much of the US at the time. That the saber was useless in that type of fighting because of the distances involved.
One thing that Stuart gets short shift one is his use and knowledge of the same tactics. Even though he favored the mass charges and the closing on horseback with pistol and saber he was flexible and knowledgeable to use it and did many times. Forrest himself was involved with that type of fighting and was familiar with it. Both knew the benefits of the massive firepower of large masses of revolver fire. He gets more credit because he did it in a theater where there was less cavalry and did more with a lesser amount of resources.
Stuart has had to fight his way through skads of unwarranted criticism that he did not deserve. Especially Gettysburg and Brandy Station. The two real culpirits of those battles have been largely forgotten. Richard Ewell and Beverly Robertson.
Forrest is studied and admired, no doubt about it and I admire him too. But Stuart is the one more studied by West Point, Sandhurst, St Cyr and in Germany where ever their Staff college is now. Sir Arthur Freemantle in his book said, "That of all the American generals in the Civil War, no general better knew the benefits of Fire and Shock tactics than JEB Stuart."
I believe Forrestt was the supreme Cavalry tactician and would have loved to have seen Suart and him in the same command! WOW What a command that would have been. Wheeler in there with them also! Boggles the mind! But Stuart was better at overall strategy.
General Wilson gets my vote because of his stint as the head of the Cavalry bureau. The reforms and job that he did there! The Union Cavalry came of age with the help of Wilson at the Headquarters end. John Buford also. Alot of the work Wilson did was a carry over and improvement of Buford's stint in the office.
The General Gordon I mentioned was also a superb commander. He commanded the Tarheel Regiments under Stuart. He can never remember which Gordon. James or William. There is a book called "Stuart's Tarheels" published by the Sons of Confederate Veterans Press. Its a rare book and copies can be quite exspensive, but wow, what a gold mine of information about the Confederate Cavalry in the Eastern Theater! General Gordon didnot survive the war. He was wounded in the arm, it grew badly infected and he died about the same time as Stuart.
I have to admit the Civil War cavalry is the most favorite subject of mine and I hope someday. soon, to have at least one of my novels published. I wrote about the CSA Cavalry naturally! I've finished three of them. It follows a young man from the mountains of western Virginia in one of Stuart's Virginia regiments. What a time to have been in the Cavalry.

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If you want to write something that has been overloked but deserves to be studied more, check out Joe Shelby and the Iron Brigade. Yes that is actually what it was called and they were very good soldiers who fought in a variety of roles. They aren't as well known since they served in lesser known theaters and under forgotten commanders. Much of the western theater (not Tennessee, but Missouri-Arkansas-Texas-Indian Territory) is overlooked and these were probably the best troops there, comprised from men from several southern States. After the end of the war, and still full of confidence after their successes, the commander Shelby took his diehards and his colors to Mexico to seek exile rather than surrender to an army that had never defeated him. I guess he's kind of like the von Lettow-Vorbeck of our Civil War. This was also the basis for the John Wayne movie "The undefeated."

George A Custer was a good cavelry officer. That's what I herd...

Custer was good as long as someone else did the strategy and planning. There's an anology about low and high wing hawks that fits Custer.
A HIGH wing hawk will be set loose after prey. It will circle and watch and wait until it spots prey. Then it will swoop and attack, bagging the prey.
Custer was like a LOW wing hawk. A low wing hawk is held in readniess until the prey is spotted and visible. Then its unhooded and it attacks, kills and comes back. That's the Custer best sytle of fighting.
You don't let them loose on their own. Show them the enemy and say attack! That's the kind of officer Custer was.
He was not reckless, Head strong arrogant, sure.
He was a bear on disclipine.
One of my best friends, as I've mentioned before is Steve Alexander of Monroe, Michigan. He's considered to be the premier Custer portrayer in the world. If you've watched any Custer pieces on the History or Discovery Channel you've probably seen him. He and his wife have restored the Judge Bacon house in monroe to look the way it did in 1865.
Custer is a character that will be written and argued about forever.

Thrust, there are some very good re-enactors around Northern Ohio and Southern Michigan who do the regiments of the Iron Brigade. The 24th Michigan Infantry Group being about the best. There are several very good books written on it and there was an Iron Brigade gift Shop in Gettysburg at one time.
But yes the Trans-Mississippi theater is one that is not studied and enough known about it.
Last I heard a teacher from Toledo, Craig DeCrane, was one of the commanders of the 24th michigan group of re-encators. He's suposed to be at Fort Meigs, Ohio next week end. (14th and 15th.) I'll talk with him then. Him and his wife used to camp as part of my cousin's Lincoln Camp.

The northern "Iron Brigade" was the First Brigade, First Division, First Corps of the Army of the Potomac (or what could probably be called the First Army of the US at the time). Shelby's Cavalry had the same name but was completely different in composition and was used to make independent actions, as cavalry was suited for.

That is true, you got me on one. That I didn't know or had heard and forgotten. Just goes to show you how little is known or remembered about that theater of operations.
Did you know that somewhere in the Confederate Western theater of ops they (CSA) had a regiment equiped with Henry rifles? I've seen it mentioned two different places but have never found it. Ever hear that?

JP,I dont know how to post a clickable link.Go to: www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_hen_02.shtml .It says some confederates owned them,but no proof of the CSA buying them.Most were captured or bought by the soldier if he had the money.I read alot of it.Pretty interesting reading.

I dont believe it.It came up as a clickable link all by its self.And it works I tried it.

Thanks I'll take a look. I'm always open to new info!

Western Confederate cavalry was already more likely to use ersatz equipment and that could include anything from a foreign purchased weapon to an archaic shotgun or blunderbluss from Mexico. It is such a murky area that I don't think we're ever going to know for sure what was carried. It is interesting that the Texas Cavalry was reputed to eschew saber altogether. I don't know if that's true in every case or just anecdotal. I do know that NB Forrest said that a Shotgun was the best cavalry weapon. I'm thinking that it is quicker than a saber and is sure to disable your opponent - this is an old tactic but the Shotgun is much more devastating at close range than the pistols of old. The Texas cavalry and other volunteers were feared by both sides during the Mexican wars and excelled at urban fighting (more common in the MAW than ACW by far) thanks to their variety of weapons.

I have to agree on the shotgun being very devestating, but I can unload a colt, especially an 1851, extremely fast and still be accurate at close range. Did in the seventies in competion shooting.
But I'm not that good a shot anymore! Do you remember the story of the James boys first bank robbery? How each of the six members shot at a passerby on the sidewalk? At a range of twenty five yards, at a full gallop on horseback? EVERY shot that hit the man was a killing shot, and every member of the gang hit him. Colt 51 Navies and 60 Army Colts.
Personally, back, then , I wouldn't have wanted to face any bunch of any of them armed with shotguns and revolvers if I didn't have to.

Will be gone this weekend guys! We'll be in camp at Fort Meigs, near Maumee, Ohio. I'll get a chance to palaver with Abe for awhile this weekend.
Looks like rain tonight, but it won't be the first time I've set up camp in the rain.
Talk at ya'll again on Monday.

Have a good week end general.Stay safe.

To coin a phrase, "I have returned." wow, what a weekend! The guys who do the WWII re-enacting did an especially good job this year. We had German troops from the SS Wiking division, Alpfen Corps Infantry, German Nurses and Wermacht doctors. US infantry, British Infantry,
Australian Infantry, Russian Army Infantry and Russian Marines. Very good showing. We had a good group from Henry Vs troops, several knights, men at arms and Welsh bowman.
The 27th and 13th Roman Legion troops, Celtic Beserkers and ninth century English troops, didn't see King Alfred. Swiss Pikemen and a few scattered Vikings.
The Fort Meigs 1812 American troops and their artillery, bunches of Indians and French trappers. One had a top hat, I desperately wanted to shoot off his head with my Colts!
President Lincoln, General Grant, me as Colonel Baker, Union troops from the 21st Ohio volunteer Intantry and the 14th Ohio Volunteer Infantry. Also a section of two guns from the First Ohio Artillery.
I didn't find out the CSA unit name, but it was a bunch of gents I didn't know.
Alot of sutlers and traders. They didn't have any tradesmen like in years past. We used to have a blacksmith and a gent who operated a bow lathe and made bowls and spoons.
Ran through rain on the way, but had good conditions when got there, and put up on wet ground. Nice and sunny Saturday and Sunday. Got home last night and got here in the middle of a severe thunder storm. I packed the tent (55 pounds) over my shoulder and ran for the garage! Made it, but boy I thought my heart wouldn't. But still here this morning!
We had pretty good sized crowds of people on Saturday and Sunday a little disappointing. But still quite a few spectators.
Back home and ready to hit another week!

quote:

Originally posted by Thrust_0311:
If you want to write something that has been overloked but deserves to be studied more, check out Joe Shelby and the Iron Brigade. Yes that is actually what it was called and they were very good soldiers who fought in a variety of roles. They aren't as well known since they served in lesser known theaters and under forgotten commanders. Much of the western theater (not Tennessee, but Missouri-Arkansas-Texas-Indian Territory) is overlooked and these were probably the best troops there, comprised from men from several southern States. After the end of the war, and still full of confidence after their successes, the commander Shelby took his diehards and his colors to Mexico to seek exile rather than surrender to an army that had never defeated him. I guess he's kind of like the von Lettow-Vorbeck of our Civil War. This was also the basis for the John Wayne movie "The undefeated."

The Iron Brigade was the 5th missouri Cav. General Shelby was never defeated and refused to surrender when instructed to. He did take around 400 men and go to Mexico. Unfortunetly for him he chose the wrong side. Had he went with Juarez, He might have done better. He chose to back little Max. To the contrary, The General did fight in tennessee & mississippi for a short time early in the war. The Balance was in Missouri, Arkansas & louisiana. The Book Shelby and his men By John Newman Edwards, And General Jo Shelby,The undefeated Rebel,BY Daniel O'Flaherty are excellent sources to read.