Col. to Gen. Chamberlin a teacher at Bodin University who would have thought he could leapfrog his line from 2 ranks to 1 to extend his defencive line at Little Round Top then lead a bayonet charge DOWN after his men had fired thier last shot. After becoming a Gen. he was to take possession of the confederate arms at Appomatix Courthouse after the surrender of confederate forces in which HE gave the order to present arms in salute of fighting men. CS Gen Gordon would return the salute and remembered that to his dying days. They cooresponded for several years after that day.

OLDAO, you're not off in your choices, especially when it comes to Patrick Cleburne. He was a resource that was wasted by a vengful commander. He was superb. One thing, and its a small matter, Cleburne did have a military background. He served in the British Army before coming to the states. He served in an infantry/foot regiment for several years. So he had a grounding on what soldiers should and should not be. He knew the drill also. An outstanding choice in a leader from the CW.
Joshua L Chamberlain, what a man and commander. My last four years on active duty were spent stationed with a Brunswick, Maine, based VP squadron. The road that lead to and from the base went along the Northern edge of Bowedien College campus, I can't spell it anymore after all these years! Chamberlain's house was half a block down the street from the intersection of where I went to drive home. I went to the museum located in the house several times. What an experience and what a man!!!
Harriet Beecher Stowe's house is down a street alittle farther down the road along the cmetery that borders the Northeast side of the college. Chamberlain took over her husband's position at the college when he retired. alot of history around there.

quote:

Originally posted by JPope:
OLDAO, you're not off in your choices, especially when it comes to Patrick Cleburne. He was a resource that was wasted by a vengeful commander. He was superb. One thing, and its a small matter, Cleburne did have a military background. He served in the British Army before coming to the states. He served in an infantry/foot regiment for several years. So he had a grounding on what soldiers should and should not be. He knew the drill also. An outstanding choice in a leader from the CW.
Joshua L Chamberlain, what a man and commander. My last four years on active duty were spent stationed with a Brunswick, Maine, based VP squadron. The road that lead to and from the base went along the Northern edge of Bowden College campus, I can't spell it anymore after all these years! Chamberlain's house was half a block down the street from the intersection of where I went to drive home. I went to the museum located in the house several times. What an experience and what a man!!!
Harriet Beecher Stowe's house is down a street a little farther down the road along the cemetery that borders the Northeast side of the college. Chamberlain took over her husband's position at the college when he retired. alot of history around there.

My apology's Mr. Pope. I remembered after I had made my post that GEN. Cleburne served with the Royal 41st Regiment of Foot. For, I believe, 6 years then bought himself out. I also said he was no more than a Brigade commander. He commanded a Division at Chattanooga, Spring Hill and Franklin. If not for his plan of enlisting the Black's in the C.S.A. He would have been a Corp Commander.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OLDAO,

OLDAO, not a problem, as I said it was a small matter. Its just good that you know about the man and appreciate his abilities. He was a wasted resource, such a fine officer and leader.

quote:

Originally posted by JPope:
OLDAO, not a problem, as I said it was a small matter. Its just good that you know about the man and appreciate his abilities. He was a wasted resource, such a fine officer and leader.

Are you familiar with this letter Gen. Cleburne wrote ?

I am with the south in life or in death, In victory or in defeat...I believe the north is about to wage a brutal and unholy war on a people who have done them no wrong,in violation of the constitution and the fundamental principles of government. They no longer acknowledge that government derives it's validity from the consent of the governed. They are about to invade our peaceful homes. Destroy our property and inaugurate a servile insurrection, murder our men and dishonor our women. We propose no invasion of the north, no attack on them and ask only to be left alone.

I believe so, I have to admit it has been quite awhile since I've read the material I have on him. If any man had a intimate knowledge of how a government oppressed its people, he did. Coming from Ireland, it gave him alot of vision and first hand experience on the subject. That and having the firebrand friends that he did.

quote:

Originally posted by the knapsack:
Wow. A debate between Grant and Lee. How copacetic. Out of all these posts, I find only one mentioning of George H. Thomas (think Mills Creek and Franklin), let alone Joe Johnston, only several mentioning of Sherman, none of Phillip Sheridan (think Stones River), no mentioning of McClellan (except for bashing) and his excellent defensive skills, organizational skills, and some offensive skills (do YOU know what happened in West Virginia in 1861?), or P.G.T. Beauregard in the beginning of the war. No talk of Greene at Gettysburg, or Patrick Cleburne in almost every battle he fought in. Or how about Leonidas Polk? While Robert E. Lee and Grant were capable and skilled generals, I don't even need to argue that the above listed men are of equal skill. There's too many generals in the Civil War to argue who was the best. If Albert Sydney Johnson hadn't been killed at the Battle of Shiloh would the war have been different. Darn right. He was the second highest-ranking Confederate general at the time, and Lee was a subordinate officer to him before the war. He was just so good that instead of sitting in the back like most high-ranking generals, he was in the thick of the fight. The list can go on and on. Too many good generals, and too many awful ones, and most ranging in between.
"Please do not Bragg about Sherman's expertise."
expertise does not qualify only to the battlefield. I would argue that total war, secret war, and internal war are far better tactics than meeting one's enemy in pitched battle. Not many other generals implemented alternative tactics like they should have, so he is still one of the best, along with hundreds of others.

If I might I would like to point out that the union did not beat the south a Franklin,TN. The south was lead by an Incompetent fool in John B, Hood. Hood did the same thing LEE did at Gettysburg. He sent his troops across a vast open area against fortified and dug in union troops. He alone caused the death of,(If memory serves me correctly) FIVE GENERALS, Their bodies were laid out on the front porch of Carinton House. The fight at the Carter House cost the life of GEN. PATRICK CLEBURNE. When you talk of Incompetent generals this man stands out like a boil on the nose. Hood ranks along with A.P.HILL & Braxton BRAGG ,Here is something some of you may not have taken into consideration. Many of these General knew and served with each other for many years before the war. they knew each others weaknesses & strengths. If the command positions had been given out based on skill, knowledge & leadership abilities a lot of the people we are talking about wouldn't even be a footnote in History. I noticed that no mention of some very good and wise generals were included in many of the threads & posts on this subject. I give YOU. Cleburne, moseby, Forrest, Hardee, and Shelby. For the North, Chamberlain. SLOWTROT Thomas, Hancock & Grierson & John Buford, A brilliant Cavalryman. Had he not held the high ground at gettysburg the out come may have been differant. These men should have been in high command positions but they didn't belong to the W.P.P.A. or the Good OLD Boy's of the HUDSON RIVER YACHT CLUB.If any of you EXPERTS want a lesson in paitriotisn,Honor and Duty to a Flag you should read the chronicles of GEN. Joseph Shelby. He was the personification of a man Dedicated to his OATH. I am not a civil war expurt like some of you, These are just my opinion's.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OLDAO,

OLDAO, you have put out a good posting here. and you are right in what you say. It unfortunate that many people, most of all historians have a axe to grind about something or someone when 95% of all history is written.
That is why we have have so many opinions on who was the best or greatest. The best historians and experts in a particular field report ALL the facts and resons why a certain figure operated the way they did and leave ALL person feelings and resonings out. They let the reader develop their own thoughts about the subject.
I had a gent about two years ago swear at me that John Moseby was an idiot and didn't rate the pariase and accolades that have put upon him. I asked him what he thought about George S. Patton? He praised Patton and just was so heartfelt in support of the general. I then asked him Who was it that taught Patton strategy and tactics? He said, well he probably learned it at VMI and West Point. I said, well maybe so, but his first instructor in hit and run moving tactics, cut and run, roll up the enemie's flanks, came from John S. Moseby!!!!!
So you see it makes my point, don't go forming opinions unless you know the whole story and thought about it for awhile. so many don't these days.
Again, bravo, OLDAO, keep up the straight hitting.

Mr. Pope;
Thank you.I am not a C.W. historian or Expert. I have some knowledge of the conflict. However most of what I know pertains to the Border Wars in Kansas & Missouri. After reading several book's on the subject. I am convinced the war started in this area. I give you the "Battle of Bkackjack". A skirmish between pro slavers & Free staters about two miles East of present day Baldwin City, KS. in 1856. The Border Wars were going on for six years before anything happened in the east. Missouri was another State that voted to go pro slavery then was taken over by union sympathisers much like Maryland and Kentucky. As I stated on another thread, If cooler heads had prevailed and a wait and see attitude taken place, ( I feel) Slavery would have been a thing of the past by 1875.

If not before. There were some cooler heads in the south who were gaining momentum on the abolishment of slavery, unfortunately one of their better speakers died in 1859. That being JEB Stuart's father. He was a well liked and listened to adviser and counselor on the subject of black freedom. He had been a congressmen and lawyer, had even been a US Army officer in the war of 1812. Quite remarkable man.
He saw as did a growing number of men that the South would be burned out by the crops they were growing by the late 1860s if left to the ruinous planting that was going on. Tobacco and cotton are extremelt hard on soil nutrients. He was one of a minority that practiced crop rotation and the growing of more staple food items. Corn ,wheat, vegetables, etc.
Many of the planation owners were land rich but cash poor. They were forever moving west in search of good land to buy and basically ruin.
Slaves were becoming prohibitively expensive. I good male worker would bring 1500 to 3000 dollars on the open market.
They were destroying themselves from within.
Mr. Stuart and others saw this and were trying to get the southern leaders to change to the food crops. Also only about 20% of the southern population owned slaves. About 9% of that owned more than 25, or were major salve holders. It was becoming too much.
So yes it was on the way out. Its a shame those southern men were not listend too. Of course people who are the most against change are ones who feel their roles or importance will be diminshed by it. I paraphrased a quote there by General Curtis LeMay.
Its really a shame that had to take so many lives. Wasn't John Brown who said, "The sins of this land will only be purged in blood." Or something to that effect?
What a shame.........

WOW ..Ive missed a lot since my last visit ..you guys are discussing some interesting topics although it being mostly conjecture...I would find it interesting as to opinions on who was the most incompetent Generals in the war between the states ...there are a number to choose from ...some well known and some who were obscure ...when I consider everything I would have to point to ole Sam Hood ..after leaving to go to Tennessee he was a complete disaster..I would have to say there was no braver officer on either side BUT he led the Army of Tennessee down the road to distruction...as I said Im sure there are a number of cadidates for this dubious honor...who do you think?

OFC

You should go back and read my posts on my opinion of J.B. Hood. I will always believe He hastened the end of he war because of his incompetence at Franklin,TN. The loss of five or six Generals in one day has to play hell on the chain of command. He was a total disaster after Gettysburg. This brings up my point about the W.P.P.A. and the Hudson River Yacht club. When a man looses an arm and a leg plus his woman he is not fit for DUTY not to mention Command.

OLDAO I would have to agree with you ...but I wonder if Gen. Bragg might not be just as guilty for being incompetent because he is the one who put Hood back in command of his old brigade?

OFC

Yep. old Braxton did have alot to do with Hood's taking over the command he did. Of course ole John made himself indespensable in Richmond while recovering from wounds. Nothing like brown nosing the President.
Or destroying your army as an effective fighting force with useless and unneeded battles.

Jefferson Davis had the big character flaw of not wanting to admit a mistake. So.......the Confederate army was stuck with two of the most incompentent generals in places where they shouldn't have been.

WHO WAS THE WORST GENERAL? That's as hard to choose as picking the Best.
C.S.A.
A.P. HILL
Braxton Bragg
Richard Ewell
Jubal Early
Leonidas Polk
J.B.Hood. After Gettysburg
For the Union
Hooker
Burnside
MCClellen
Schofield
Ewing
And the list go'es on.

quote:

Originally posted by JPope:
Jefferson Davis had the big character flaw of not wanting to admit a mistake. So.......the Confederate army was stuck with two of the most incompetent generals in places where they shouldn't have been.

In that regard, Mr. Pope. Bobbie LEE was cut from the same bolt of cloth as Davis. Had LEE listened to Isaac Trimble, John B. Hood And longstreet, the out come might have been different at Gettysburg. This is all speculation & conjecture something like (woulda,coulda, shoulda). Lee lost because he wouldn't be deviated from his original plan. Then again, I could be wrong.

It doesn't take a military expert to see that Lee should have listened to his subordinate commanders at Gettysburg. don't get me wrong on that statement. He made a very bad mistake that can be attributed to many reasons.
Several years ago, about ten now, I made a discovery at Gettysburg that really altered my thinking on this subject. I found something out that I hadn't thought of or realized until the day we were at the Virginia Memorial and was looking across the way to the former Federal positions. I had a friend call one of the Gettyburg historians I know and asked him how high were the trees along the Confederate position near the Lee's vantage point during the battle.
Several fellow reenactor/living historian friends of mine and I looked for a suitable height tree along the front row of trees near the Virginia Memorial. One of our more younger compadres climbed the tree to the top, or near it and looked across. He used my CW vintage binoculars and made a startling discovery. It confirmed the thought and theory I had.
He could NOT see a considerable portion of the Union positions on Cemetery Ridge, even from the top of the tree. There is a space of about 150 to 200 yards that is not visible. A natural swale and ridge blocking the view.
Remember what LEE said about the Federal position? Strong on the flanks, but weak in the center? He couldn't see how many troops and batteries remained in that part of the center of the Union line after Meade strengthened his flanks. He only guessed that what might have been there..... Hmmmm...... gets you to thinking doesn't it. It lends credence to his mistake attacking the Union line with Pickett's division and two others. The Union line was stronger than he thought.He made not a mistake, but a mistake on a catstrophic level to the Confederacy. He was right in offering his resignation. Wow! Nuff Said!

Gettysburg would have been a differant battle on several factors.
1. Stuart should have been screening the army instead of galivanting around the country.
2. With the cav that was left with lee should have been out. The command should have had faith in other officers to do job instead of faith only in Stuart.
3.When Lee got information from Longstreets "scout" as to locations of what union forces were where and who the troops belong to.Then should have put out the left behinds of cav that didnt go off with Stuart to get more information.
3.Heth should have backed off when they took fire, when they recognized that it was union cav with arty.
4. Lee's forces should have come up on line ASAP and went right in in mass. Ewell should have forced the issue at Cemetery Hill as union forces were off balance instead of the order "Take the hill if Practicable"
5. As things happened Longstreet should have been allowed to shift his command further south in the dark past Big Round Top and would have come up the Taneytown road hitting union forces in the flank and rear doing damage in detail and Ewell should be making a heavy attack on Cemetery and Culps hills drawing forces away from the left flank.
6. This would have ditroyed the Army of the Patomic and allow confederate forces to get to Washington City and allow Gen'l Lee to hand deliver a letter to Mr. Lincoln from Mr. Davis.

As for where the civil war started I will agree that it started with the passing of the Kansas,Nebraska act which was to start faning the embers of rebellion in the Kansas Territory between ardent abolisionists, freesoilers, border ruffians and slaveocrates Note this would also bring into play army officers posted at Ft Riley as to who they sided with. Which were turning to any means of stuffing the ballat boxs in thier favor liqure or violence.
People of note who came to the forefront of this early blood letting are the likes of James Lane, Doc Jenison,John Brown (Osawtamie Brown) for Beecher Bibles (cases marked as such but had army surplus weapons) and being involved in the MarDesines massacure. After the territorial vote was showing that Kansas was to be a slave state then Territorial Gouvounor John Reader stated to the bogus legislation " You are fanning the watch fires of war" This was in 1856 at a warehouse that was used for the capital of territorial Kansas. This was the only stone structure in a townsite land speculation on the banks of the Kaw river on Ft Riley property then as it is now.