quote:

JEB Stuart A personal favorite of mine...
JPope

Jeb Stuart was a brilliant cavalryman but certainly let down Lee at Gettysburg. In an effort to make up for being caught by suprise at Brandy Station, Stuart embarked on a raid deep into Union territory. Unfortunatly, his actions left Lee in the dark as to the strength and location of Union forces. This lack of intelligence contributerd to Lee's defeat at Gettysburg. If "Stonewall" Jackson was Lee's right arm, Stuart was his left and the death of the former and miscalulations at a critical time by the latter prooved fatal for the Confederacy.

Scooter, my friend, you are Wrong! You are making accusations not founded on the real info.
Stuart was surprised at Brandy Station because Gen Beverly Robertson did not protect the Southern right flank as he was ordered to do. He fell back after only engaging the enemy for ten minutes. He fell back leaving the WHOLE right flank exposed. Even though surprised, Stuart did drive back the Union troops. If John Buford hadn't rallied the retreating Federals and held the fords across the river the Union troops would have been killed or captured.
Second the supposed deep raid into the north, was NOT a "Deep raid." It was part of the campaign plan for the invasion of the North the spring of 1863. Stuart was thrown off track by Richard Ewell who changed campsites and did not inform the ANV headquarters that he did it. From the time he moved and Stuart marched that direction he found two Corps of the Army of the Potomac blocking his path. Should have surrendered or turned back? He had to go around them then renew his march north into Pennsylvania. Ewells' corp do not use the route they were supposed to have used so they were out of touch with most everybody.
The evening of July the first Stuart was exactly where LEE'S ORDERS told him to be.
Near Harrisburg and CArlisle, PA. It was not until 11:30 PM that a courier FINALLY got to Stuart and informed him of the engagement at Gettysburg. Ewell had already left the area and went to Gettysburg. Stuart had to wait for his scouts and didn't get to Gettyburg until the afternoon of the next day.
LEE had over three thousand cavalry troops left with the Army of Northern Virginia after Stuart left. Why, as a former Cavalry regimental commander didn't Lee use them to scout ahead?
Stuart was NOT, I repeat NOT, the cause for the Confederate defeat at Gettysburg. The defeat came on the FIRST day when Ewell did not attack Cemetery ridge south of the town. Read my post above.
I would strong suggest you get ahold of "Gettysburg, A Study in Command, Spring 1863", by Coddington and "Saber and Scapegoat, J.E.B. Stuart and the Gettysburg Controversy" by Mark Nesbitt
You need more education on the REAL truths of what happened.
Also the ride into Pennsylvania during the Fall of 1862, was not a glory ride. Stuart had a purpose, he was to scout possible routes for the invasion of the north for 1863 campaign. Check the towns, fodder and food supplies for the army to sustain itself for the invasion the following spring. Again he WAS obeying orders.
It is true that Stuart did fail at times, but he has been the victim, like Custer of disobeying orders and doing things for personal glory that just aren't true. It takes some digging, but if you do, the real truth comes to light.
As I said, I've been a student of the CW for over thirty years and a re-enactor for 24. I learn something new about the war all the time.
But a great deal of time is taken up helping to dispel misconceptions and wrong assumptions about the conflict and the people who fought it.
Read and study those two books. YOU WILL be enlightened and discover your misconceptions about some things that did and did not take place.

GARRY OWEN in Glory!!!

quote:

Scooter, my friend, you are Wrong!

Impossible! The only time I ever made a mistake was the time I thought I made a mistake! Just kidding. The sourse I used was The American Civil War by Cole C. Kingseed (Col. USA, ret) Professor Emeritus of History at the United States Military Academy, West Point.

Hey guy, I was just abit overzealous writing that last piece. You used a very good reference and I apologize! But so many historians have a personal axe to grind when they write history.
John Keegan once wrote, "The best historians are those who have no opinion on the history they write. Only to report it as accurately as possible." He also added if they have an opinion that strong write a separate book about it.
Too many historians try to put famous figures into categories they devise to cover the points they want to make. He was this way because....Or so and so's leadership was because of.
Even the best and most learned scholars make mistakes. I don't know how many of these gents have written that Custer's men had Spencer Carbines at Hanover. That's NOT true. They had Spencer RIFLES. But people believe it because James MacPherson says so or Brian Pohanka was on such and such.
The Stuart Gettysburg problem came about because of a member of Lee's staff made a disparaging remark against Stuart at a dinner party in the 1880s. By that time the legend of the "Lost Cause" and Lee's elevation to almost 'Godhood" made any bad utterances or remarks made by Lee or his people gospel.
Its just like the myth we've had to swallow about Custer for over a hundred and thirty years, "Custer disobeyed orders at Little Bighorn." NO he didn't. The Indians were armed with a mixture of mainly muzzleloading type weapons. Again another myth put over on us. Not so, the battlefield has yielded many many Henry and Winchester cartidge cases. It was not Custer's people that were using them!
The two books I mentioned in my last piece are really outstanding in dispelling alot of rumor and down right untruths. After reading Coddington's book, you'll wonder how the Staff of Lee's got anything done at all!
Mark's book has a copy of Lee's final orders to Stuart before the cavrlyman left. I don't know if you've Mark's "Ghosts of Gettysburg" books but they are also very good.
Again sorry about that, I'll stay down off my soapbox, us 'ole mechs" have to stick together.
Ciao!

I have to think that at Gettysburg had Gen Lee knew that the entire army of the Potomac was in the area he would have chosen not to do battle there ... with Stuart being away from the main body Gen Lee was blind ... you might think because of that fact Gen Lee would have been more careful and not engaged BUT he knew that he only had provisions for a short time ...I think he made a lot of questionable decesions but he made them based on the intel he had ... kind of like the way we wound up in Iraq ....

OneFatCat, Lee was blind moving towards Gettysburg by his own choosing. Stuart did not take all the ANV cavalry with him. He left almost three thousand cavalry behind to do the job of scouting and screening the army as it advanced. Too much has been made of "Stuart's mistake." Its a CROCK!"
Lee did not use the cavalry that remained in the way he should have. WHY? This is a question I have asked numerous historians and lecturers over the past 15 years. Why people don't want to go in this territory is that it may lead to show some of Lee's failings and mistakes.
Almost 80% of the conflicts in the history of the Confederate history of the war have been generated by people who were disgruntled at their own conduct, lack of good work in command positions or the furtherers of the "Lost Cause" and the godhood status of Robert E Lee. Even the Stuart Gettysburg story didn't start until the 1880s. You need to read Saber and Scapegoat by Mark Nesbitt, it will open your eyes!
Lee visited Richmond in May of 1863 and was given a pail of Fresh cold Buttermilk to drink. Unpasturized buttermilk. He developed cold type symtoms and was looked at by a doctor. It was diagnosed that he had a inflammation of the pericadium of the heart. Caused by the staff germs in the milk. This many believe as do I started him on the road to further heart problems.
Also, he caught dysntery from food and water he ate on the march into Pennsylvania. So at Gettysburg he was not a well man. Alot of problems and situations that he had to deal with and not feeling well.
Lee commmandede a cavalry regiment before the CW, so he knew what cvalry's role was in the movement of armies.
As I said in my posting above, we have been spoon fed history by people who only want us to know the history from their point of view. Many many new dicuments are coming to light and revealing things may not have always been like we were taught.

JPOPE I do not claim to be a CW historian ...I am and always have been very interested in the subject. I have to say that there has to be a lot more to the fact that Gen. Lee had the calvery he needed but for some reason just did not use it. As you said he was very familer with the role of the calvery and if he chose not to use them it must have been for an obvious reason not just poor judgement or an oversite ...if it is a fact that he did have 3000 horseman at his disposal on the days leading up to and during the battle then as I said there would have to ba a logical reason for this General not to use them ..maybe he did not trust such an important task to who ever the officer in charge was at the time ...or maybe he expected Gen Stuart back sooner ... I have no idea but I can not accept an explination that he just "goofed" up or "forgot" how to use them ...come on buddy give me some meat to consider here ...Jeb Stuart is my favorite General of the entire war so I am not trying to balme him ...but something compelled Gen Lee to enage the union at Gettysburg and again I say had he known what he was really facing I cant believe he would have fought that battle at that time ...JMO

OFC

I believe General Lee still would have fought the battle even knowing about the norths numbers.Only in a different manner.

Fat Cat, see you live in Ky.I do too.In Anderson county.

OneFatCat, very good guy, you got the point. Why,what was his resoning at not using them? You brought a very valid question that other people have asked, "Didn't he trust the officer left in charge?" I can't answer that. That is something we may never know.
I believe the main thing is he (Lee) took for granted the ability of Ewell to operate and be familiar with his style of leadership like Stonewall Jackson was. It didn't happen that way. You also stated maybe he expected Stuart back earlier. That is a damn good statement that I think hits things square on the head. I firmly beleive that Stuart having to take that extra day and half to ride around the corps of the Army of the Potomac set his schedule back far enough that he DIDN'T get that chance to report to Lee before the battle began. Now here starts that problem, Stuart was late. no, he was right where he should have been, but thanks to Richard Ewell things were thrown off.
There is the problem of the missing couriers between Stuart and Lee. To this day no one knows what happened to these men. They disappeared and were never found. Stuart didn't get word until the night of July 1st that the battle had begun at Gettysburg.
The Gettysburg Campaign, A Study in Command, by Coddington, is probably the best resuorce we have as to what happened in the Headquarters of the ANV that spring of 1863. Reading it makes you wonder how Lee and his staff got anthing accomplished.
Maybe somday a letter or document will surface and fill us in more as to why Lee didn't utilize the remaining cavalry.
I have to say, for claiming not to be CW historian you made some very good and knowledgable remarks and asked some damn intelligent questions! Bravo sir.
As to JEB, what can I say. He was the man. There will never be another like him. He was much more complex a man than historians try to make him.
I had honor to portray him for several years, and the attitude of people for him was just great. I tried to portray him with honor and realism and people responded positively to that.
He remains my favorite general and commander.
Yes, I also believe that Gettysburg would have been fought even if Lee knew the Federal army was nearby.

Please share your thoughts on why Gen. Lee would still have chosen to fight in Gettysburg even had he known the the truth about the numbers he was facing? I think based on his prior campains that it was obvious he was not affraid to face a larger force but I have to think we he did he felt he had other advatages such as terrian and quality of personal ...I do not think Gen. Lee just went charging pal mall into a battle agenst larger forces out of just being stubborn or trying to make a reputation ...my thoughts have always been that had he known what he was trully facing that faithful 3 days that he might have choose to find better ground to fight on ...why else would he try to take a superior force that was in trenched on the high ground....he must have thought for whatever reason he had the some type of advatage ...based on what intl he had at the moment ... one of the decesions that really perplex's me is why he was so adamant about sending Hood up Little Round Top when Hood felt he could flank the defenders by going to the right and coming up from behind them...knowing that Hood was a very competent and brave officer why did Gen Lee not listen and agree ...Im sure Gen Lee had a logical reason ..but it is hard to understand when the results were so tragic ... I live in Paducah Kentucky but was raised in Alabama ..lived in Alabama for over 50 years so my southern Heritage and pride run deep ...as for Georgia's Beau Sabre He WAS the man .. AND "The Last Cavalier"...by the way I am very pleased to have found this forum ..I am sure I will learn alot.

OFC

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OneFatCat,

First of all let me say,I've gotten back into my library and dug out some books to refresh my memory and knowledge concerning this whole subject.
Lee did use the cavalry he had, but to an extent that it didn't provide him with what he wanted to know about the Federal army. Now that opens up another whole line of thinking.
As to your question concerning Lee's possible not approving of the commander Stuart left behind, I would think that Lee would have voiced his misgivings to JEB. Stuart took Wade Hampton with him to further groom him for command. most thought that Stuart would leave Hampton behind to command the remaining cavalry. Their's was a father-son type relationship and I don't think Lee would have been silent to Jeb about any misgivings he had.
As far as fighting as Gettysburg, Lee choose to regroup the army at Gettysburg because of the terrain and country in Adams County, Pennsylvania. It is good ground for large masses of men and equipment to manuver in. Plus all the major roads that intersect in Gettysburg.
Maybe he didn't want to fight there to begin with, but as the first day progressed the results became favorable and he decided to commit.
As for Hood wanted to go around to the right, he had received word that there were no Federal units on the Round Tops at the time. Confederate scouts had been on the hills tops on the afternoon and evening of the first day and found the place deserted.
It was only a near thing that General Warren found that same thing out, July second, and grabbed units of Vincent's Brigade to cover that area. Vincent's Brigade having been dispatched to cover Sickles' flank. Sickles sacrificed his corps by putting it out three hundred yards in front of thr rest of the Union line bought that time. The Union units barely beat the Confederates into position. Hood had good reason to argue.
I believe that a battle in that area of the country was invetiable. Lee knew he was operating on borrowed time having his army split into three groups. Which was a Napoleonic
type of formation. Two or more fully contained army corps operating within a days ride of each other for mutual support.
I need to do some more thinking on this. I haven't been really keeping myself current on my CW history as I've been involved with another project. I was a re-enactor/livinf historian for many years but had to quit because of health reasons. But I do believe I'm going to be more active this coming year.
I like to write and I was working on a sword and sorcery novel. I have two CW novels finished and working on a third. But the S&S novel had priority. Hope......fingers crossed, to get one of the three published this year.
I'll get back in a week or so after digging in the books.

After reading Gen. Longstreets account of the 2nd day at Gettysburg in regards to why Gen. Lee would not allow Gen Hood to go too the right and flank the union ...I can not help but wonder why if Gen Hood was so convinced that the right was open why Gen Longstreet did not go to Gen Lee and argue his case. I konw that according to Longstreet that he was over a mile away from where Lee was and I know that according to Gen Longstreet that he and Gen Lee had discussed the option the night before but decided ageanst it ...however according to Gen. Longstreets account Gen Lee had not actually road to the sight and visually seen it for himself..it just seems that something THAT obvious should have been STRONGLY suggested to Gen Lee ... I am not sure of the relationship between Lee and Longstreet but from all accounts it seems they had a mutual respect for one another and it would seem that Gen Lee would have at least listened to Longstreet had he confronted him after Hoods protest ... one can not help but beleive after reading Longstreets account that the blame of Hoods disaster falls on Longstreets sholders for not trying to change Gen Lee's mind ...from some of the other Generals who were at Gettysburg they reported that had Hood took the flank the battle would have had a different conclusion.

OFC

This message has been edited. Last edited by: OneFatCat,

I have done a little reading myself on the subect as to how Gen. Lee utilized the calvery that he had the first day or so at Gettysburg. I found that according to Generals Longstreet and Hood that the calvery that was present at the opening of the battle were being used to guard the supplies and wagons that were so vitle to the army while being in a hostile state. I can't help but come to the conclusion that Gen. Lee felt this was a priority and so he commited what horseman he had for this endevor expecting Gen Stuart to join him at any time with information about the union forces he was facing. One may argue that this was a miscalculation on Gen. Lee's part but I think he was just a victum of circumstances.

OFC

He was also a victim of SOP. At the time there was alot of thinking that that was all cavalry was really good for. Lee was not alone in that thinking. Generals on both sides were afflicted with that malady for quite a number of years in the war. Thewagon trians idd need guarding there is no doubt of that and I'm sure lack of numbers may have had something to do with it also.
Please forgive my lack of response. But I'm down with a rather bad case of bronchittis and general crud! Being that I take so much medication for my heart condition, it compromises my immune system. Colds are alot worse for me that for noncardiac patients. Oh, well as the old golfer said, "At least I'm on the right side of the grass!"

Garry Owen in glory!!!!!!!1

JP good to hear from you ...I was beginning to think I was talking to myself on here ...does not seem to be a lot of interest in this subject from the lack of input ...I hope you get to feeling better my friend ...we can take this up at a later date.

OFC

Thanks bro! Love your little icon! That's cool!!!!

There were a series of cav fights south of the present park along Emitsburg Pike. I hadn't realized they occured until I hiked from the Eisenhower to Longstreet's jump off point on day two. There are at least 3 or 4 separate monuments, dedicated to those fights, just off the road.
So, it seemds that Lee's available horse were "occupied" during the timeframe in question.

Abo****ely right! There were cavalry fights going on the whole time right before the main battle and after. No one has said the cavalry wasn't doing anything. It is the question and debate, were they doing what they should have?
A great majority of those answers can be found in the books I've mentioned on this thread and The Cavalry at Gettysburg by Jeffrey Wert. Very good reference material. A new book, in the past year, is "The Coming of Age of the Union Cavalry, by Mr. Allen. I can't remember his first name, but he's from the Columbus, Ohio area and knows his subject. MUST reading for anyone who is a Cavalry buff on the CW cavalry, both sides. I met him at the Artillery Show in Mansfield, Ohio last May.
Excuse me i have to take my antibi-otics and rest abit. Damn this bronchitis!!!!!!!!!1

Sorry about that!!!!!!!! ABSOLUTELY! Damn I HATE being sick!!!!!