quote:

I am inclined to agree with those from the Confederacy. I wouldn't have owned slaves, because of my Irish ancestry. So, I would be fighting essentially for what our forefathers fought for in the Revolution: Freedom from oppressors

?????
Freedom from oppressors but fight for the Confederacy?

I would fight for the Union the government that established the Emancipation Proclamation. Argue the purpose of the document but to be honest I am only interested in what it caused.

General Grant had four slaves right up 'til the 13th Amendment. He coined the phrase, "it's hard to get good help these days".

Get your facts straight. The Confederates would in no way fight a bunch of Yankees so a few rich slave owners could keep their slaves. Get a life. That stupid war was over the almighty buck. Without the South's tax revenue the North couldn't exist. Who'd pay the presidents yearly wages. The North with money made from their foundries? I think not.

The South fought the war to keep their freedom and break loose from an over powering government. Hell, lincoln would have killed his own mother to get the South and the money they had back. That is if his mother hadn't died of milk poisoning. Just thought I'd let you know this. It seems that the North doesn't want its school kids to learn the real truth about the Civil War and lincoln's treason ways by breaking the constitution the way he did.

I'd have fought to the bitter end to protect the South, my home, my family, from a preemptive strike. We were invaded by the North! You damn Yanks have been so brainwashed over the slavery issue. Slavery was a scapegoat for an inevitable war between North and South. The Northern Industrialists had wanted war since the 1830's to take Southern resources for pennies on the dollar. These Northern Industrialists brought up a morality claim against the South alleging the evils of slavery. The Northern Hypocrites conveniently neglected to mention that 5 New England States (Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and New York ) were primarily responsible for the importation of most of the slaves from Africa to America. These states had both private and state owned fleets of ships. Indirectly slavery was a cause of the war. Most Southerners did not own slaves and would not have fought for the protection of slavery. However they believed that the North had no Constitutional right to free slaves held by citizens of Sovereign Southern States. Prior to the war there were five times as many abolition societies in the South as in the North. Virtually all educated Southerners were in favor of gradual emancipation of slaves. Gradual emancipation would have allowed the economy and labor system of the South to gradually adjust to a free paid labor system without economic collapse. Furthermore, since the New England States were responsible for the development of slavery in America, Southerners saw the morality claims by the North as blatant hypocrisy. The first state to legalize slavery had been Massachusetts in 1641 and this law was directed primarily at Indians. In colonial times the economic infrastructure of the port cities of the North was dependent upon the slave trade. The first slave ship in America, "THE DESIRE", was fitted out in Marblehead, Massachusetts. Further proof that Southerners were not fighting to preserve slavery is found in the diary of an officer in the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia. He stated that "he had never met a man in the Army of Northern Virginia that claimed he was fighting to preserve slavery". If the war had been over slavery, the composition of the politicians, officers, enlisted men, and even African Americans would have been different. Confederate General Robert E. Lee had freed his slaves prior to 1863 whereas Union General Grant's wife Julia did not free her slaves until after the war when forced to do so by the 13th amendment to the constitution and court action. Grant even stated that if the abolitionists claimed he was fighting to free slaves that he would offer his services to the South. Mildred Lewis Rutherford ( 1852-1928 ) was for many years the historian for the United Daughters Of The Confederacy (UDC). In her book Truths Of History she stated that there were more slaveholders in the Union Army ( 315,000 ) than the Confederate Army ( 200,000 ). Statistics also show that about 300,000 blacks supported the Confederacy versus about 200,000 for the Union. Clearly the war would have been fought along different lines if it had been fought over slavery. The famous English author Charles Dickens stated " the Northern onslaught upon Southern slavery is a specious piece of humbug designed to mask their desire for the economic control of the Southern states."

The North would have invaded even if
slavery had never existed. Prior to the war about 75% of the money to operate the Federal Government was derived from the Southern States via an unfair sectional tariff on imported goods and 50% of the total 75% was from just 4 Southern states--Virginia- North Carolina--South Carolina and Georgia. Only 10%--20% of this tax money was being returned to the South. The Southern states were being treated as an agricultural colony of the North and bled dry.

Furthermore, the United States of America was founded as a Constitutional Federal Republic in 1789 composed of a Limited Federal Government and Sovereign States. The North wanted to and did alter the form of Government this nation was founded upon. The CSA fought to preserve Constitutional Limited Federal Government as established by America’s founding fathers who were primarily Southern Gentlemen from Virginia. Thus Confederate soldiers were fighting for rights that had been paid for in blood by their forefathers upon the battlefields of the American Revolution. Abraham Lincoln had a blatant disregard for The Constitution of the United States of America. His War of aggression against the South changed America from a Constitutional Federal Republic to a Democracy ( with Socialist leanings ) and broke the original Constitution. The Socialist Karl Marx sent Lincoln a letter of congratulations after his reelection in 1864. A considerable number of European Socialists came to America and fought for the Union



"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
--- The Declaration of Independence

So yes, I would have been fighting for my home, my family and for the very principle's in the Declaration of Independence. American by birth, Southern by the Grace of God! Let me hear a Rebel Yell!

Nathan:

I know what you've stated here to be true. I just never could put the words together like you did. Would you mind if I pass your statement around? Great literature. You must be a teacher or writer or both. Great post and I'll use your name as Nathan. I won't change it around or lay any claim to it.

Sure, most of this information I gathered from books and journal articles while getting my B.S. from Arkansas State University. It is essentially pieces taken from a term paper I wrote for American History.

Thanks Nathan;

With posts like you made the folks up North will realize what a stupid mistake lincoln was and how he ruined peoples lives,stole, murdered innocent peoples and went against the will of the people for the people. How he acted against the constitution instead of abiding by our laws set forth by Thomas Jefferson and all who fought against oppression. Too, maybe the descendants of slaves will realize that the North never gave a damn if they were free citizens or not.

Thanks Nathan.

In everything I have read since my last post I cant argue with anything I have read, but I can make one statement. There were POS's on each side of the Mason-Dixon that allowed the slavery issue in the country to last as long as it did. A damn shame in a country that had a document that supposedly protected basic human rights 90 years prior.

#13669990;
I voted against the $1.00 a pack increase, (little good did my vote do). I know the facts as you should but really don't I suppose. The state government brought this Idea of the $1.00 a pack increase up. Hell, they knew it would pass through the voting system with flying colors. The vote was ONE SIDED, (to say the least). The non-smokers of South Dakota outnumber the smokers by a hefty margin. There was no doubt in their minds that this dollar increase would go through. You might say they bullied the tax through. Sort of like the Yankees won the Civil War because they out numbered the South. I don't know any better way to explain that tax increase to you except the fact that South Dakota needed more tax money and they knew how to get it and they got it FAST.

An Addendum to this you may not realize fella;
When the state of South Dakota realizes that if they set up poll booths on the city limits of Sturgis and close by cities and charge visitors X number of dollars because they can do it...what will your comment be then? Believe me #13669990, the state will get you and people like you sooner or later. It may be insurance on the job, house, automobile or just the air you breath but your time is coming for sure. TAX money, the almighty buck always gets its way where any type of government can step in and collect. IRS for example. Personally, I'm too old to give a damn.

Another Addendum...
You can shove that SLAVE issue where the SUN don't shine. We folks from the South would never kill an American citizen to maintain slavery! We Southerners love life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We loved Thomas Jefferson and what he stood for. We were in the process of freeing the slaves long before the Civil War. We believe that no man should be the owner of another person be he colored, white or whatever. NOW, what GOD do you respect??? Give me the name of this GOD. My GOD has a SON named JESUS. What is the name of the Son Of God you speak of?
I'd like to know.

My Dollars Worth.

quote:

Originally posted by 13669990:
Hey Travis we voted to raise taxes on the death sticks in South Dakota. Thats what you do in a democracy,you should know your facts before you blow smoke up peoples pant leg about freedom. Oh and speaking of freedom, has anyone ever been happy as a slave? I hope there is a real hell so those who believe owning slaves was ok have a place of their own.
Vern May Mobridge SD

This message has been edited. Last edited by: travisab1,

quote:

Originally posted by PoliticallyIncorrect:
I'd fight for New England and the Union.

If I survived it, I'd probably kill myself. Just the sheer horror of ordering cannons to rip apart your American brothers should be overwhelming for anyone here.

(Food for thought, ever seen many pictures of Civil War officers where they look proud of their service?)

The South was, is, and always has been proud fella. If you take a look at ANY portrait, or photograph from that era, everyone looks drab, expressionless and melancholy. It was how you were supposed to look when getting your picture taken. I've got a lithograph of Gen. Lee and Stonewall Jackson that they look pretty damn proud in to me.

I got to thinking that this post of mine looked a little too busy. So, I unbusified it.
Question;
When the people of congress collect their checks isn't this a little like a welfare check? If it is how can they give themselves raises every couple of years. Seems they'd have to go talk to a welfare agent to get more money for doing nothing and those paid vacations they get, WOW, every Americans dream huh?

The South will rise again only this time...the all of the North will rise with them and ta hell with the old lincolnite way of thinking and the likes there of . LONG LIVE AMERICA...GOD bless Thomas Jefferson and our BILL of RIGHTS...The BLOODYConstitution... for which it stands. I love America. Do you??? Don't keep it to yourselves.

Travis Glenn

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Darn, to bad this is a poll, otherwise I would've said some African tribe, because the name of the forum is just Civil War.

Outstanding Posts Nathan!! There are SO MANY misconceptions about the war between the states. I'm a born and raised Kentucky boy, and having studied some of this history, I would have to say that if I had been alive back then, I would have fought for the Confederacy. That being said, I served proudly over 8 years on active duty in the U.S. Navy (Still serve in the Reserves). I am definitely a proud AMERICAN, and don't think another war of secession will ever happen. History having played out the way it did was probably a good thing for our great nation. I doubt the United States would be as powerful as it is had the Confederates won their war of independance.

Folks;
So many people still believe that grown men would lay down their lives to either maintain or stop slavery. How can the folks up North be duped soooo bad to believe this for all these years? This just beats the heck out of me to even think that Americans would fight each other for the cause of freeing slaves to the tune of over 630,000 lost lives. In my mind this would have never been possible anytime anywhere here in the states.

Det3cack;
Had the South won the war the North, Yankees would have joined the newly designed government made by the South. You see, the South believed in the constitution and bill of rights there of.The South didn't want big government or brother. The North would have realized that and once again we'd have a United States created by the people for the people.

My two cents.

Take care folks,

Travis

This message has been edited. Last edited by: travisab1,

Being I'm a Georgian, I would have fought with the South. I'm one of the firm belivers the war was not started just over slavery, but state rights.
As many other young men in belief, you defended the community, state, region before the union. I would venture to say it would still be the same today, your loyality is deeper in the community than the complete union.

Nathan;

I got your post in at this site. Check it out to see what you think...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_were_the_causes_of_the_Civil_War
Under Civil War Causes.

Travis

Gentlemen I think we are all in agreeance that the Civil War wasnt fought over slavery and the understanding I have from what I have read here its the consensus of the people in this forum that it wasnt an important enough issue to have any role in the decisions made starting, maintaining and ending the Civil War, it was states rights.

...but in answer to a comment you had made Travis, at the time that Bill of Rights that you had mentioned only applied to some Americans, not all because some were deemed as property, so I dont think it was an important document for that time in American history, if something that important that provided all of the freedoms claimed didnt apply to all, then well the document had major discrepancies at the time. Half of the country was willing to seperate and start its own army and fight a war for 4 years for reasons like that!!

...and before anyone questions my pride as an American please keep in mind as my profile says I served 10 years in the USMC, something that I will remain proud of for the rest of my life, I would have not served my country without pride for my country, I just have some problems with some of its history.

Hello Sgt;

I'd never question your pride or integrity, far from it. After I got out of the Navy I spent another 30 years in the Merchant Marines. I delivered a many a can of Pabst Blue ribbon and Carling Black Label to the non-com's and Buttwiper to the officers not to mention food and ammo ETC all through the Vietnam and even Operation Desert Shield/Storm. I have a Son in Iraq right now. Sooooo, I'll put this in Texas format although I now live in South Dakota. Always remember this though...The constitution was written by a Southern Gentleman. As far as things being wrong with the constitution goes...Lincoln had no right to break it and become the Judge, Jury and Executioner. I think that comes under what Congress was supposed to do. The North were and all through the Civil War owners of slaves too. I don't and never did believe in the ownership of one human being by another. Now a brief description of that era in Southern format...

You might be a redneck if

you get over 630,000 fellow Americans killed

two years after you started having your fellow Americans killed tell folks you did it to free slaves from a sovereign country when your bestest General Grant owns four slaves to the bitter end, (13th Amendment 1865)

you’ve wiped out entire Indian villages, put the survivors on a reservation & stole their land from them

Then again some folks may think you be the bestest president America ever had, a HERO
With a resume like this...you can't go wrong now can you?

Travis

This message has been edited. Last edited by: travisab1,

Confederates. The south is my home after all.

quote:

Originally posted by SSgt_L:

quote:

I am inclined to agree with those from the Confederacy. I wouldn't have owned slaves, because of my Irish ancestry. So, I would be fighting essentially for what our forefathers fought for in the Revolution: Freedom from oppressors

?????
Freedom from oppressors but fight for the Confederacy?

I would fight for the Union the government that established the Emancipation Proclamation. Argue the purpose of the document but to be honest I am only interested in what it caused.

Just as long as you understand that it only set the slaves in the Confederate States free.

Here are some interesting quotes from the "Great Emancipator"

http://www.37thtexas.org/html/Emancipator.html

Abraham Lincoln, as cited in "The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln," Roy Basler, ed. 1953 New Brunswick, N.J.: Rutgers University Press:

"I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

An address by Abraham Lincoln at Springfield, Illinois, on June 26, 1857 [Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Vol II, pp 408-9, Basler, ed.]:

"A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as immediate separation is impossible the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. Such separation, if ever affected at all, must be effected by colonization The enterprise is a difficult one, but 'where there is a will there is a way:' and what colonization needs now is a hearty will. Will springs from the two elements of moral and self-interest. Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and at the same time, favorable to, or at least not against our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be."

"The Great Proclamation" (1960), Commager, Henry Steele; "Mr. Lincoln's Proclamation" (1964), Donovan, Frank; "The Emancipation Proclamation" (1964), Franklin, John Hope, ed.

THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION:

Whereas on the 22nd day of September, A.D. 1862, a proclamation was issued by the President of the United States, containing, among other things, the following, to wit:

"That on the 1st day of January, A.D. 1863, all persons held as slaves within any State or designated part of a State the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall be then, thenceforward, and forever free...

Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana (except the parishes of St. Bernard, Palquemines, Jefferson, St. John, St. Charles, St. James, Ascension, Assumption, Terrebone, Lafourche, St. Mary, St. Martin, and Orleans, including the city of New Orleans), Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and Virginia (except the forty-eight counties designated as West Virginia, and also the counties of Berkeley, Accomac, Northhampton, Elizabeth City, York, Princess Anne, and Norfolk, including the cities of Norfolk and Portsmouth), and which excepted parts are for the present left precisely as if this proclamation were not issued."

NOTE - Slavery was NOT abolished in one Confederate (Tennessee) and four Union states (Maryland, Delaware. Kentucky, West Virginia, and Missouri).

Abraham Lincoln 1859 [Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, Vol III, pp 399, Basler, ed.]

"Negro equality, Fudge!! How long in the Government of a God great enough to make and maintain this Universe, shall there continue to be knaves to vend and fools to gulp, so low a piece of demagoguism as this?" --

"Constitutional Problems under Lincoln," James G. Randall, 1951, Urbana: University of Illinois Press:

"Among the unconstitutional and dictatorial acts performed by Lincoln were initiating and conducting a war by decree for months without the consent or advice of Congress; declaring martial law; confiscating private property; suspending habeas corpus; conscripting the railroads and censoring telegraph lines; imprisoning as many as 30,000 Northern citizens without trial; deporting a member of Congress, Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio, after Vallandigham - a fierce opponent of the Morrill tariff -- protested imposition of an income tax at a Democratic Party meeting in Ohio; and shutting down hundreds of Northern newspapers."

The Glittering Illusion: English Sympathy for the Southern Confederacy, Sheldon Vanauken, 1989, Washington, DC: Regnery/Gateway.

"...So Englishmen saw it. Lincoln's insincerity was regarded as proven by two things: his earlier denial of any lawful right or wish to free the slaves; and, especially, his not freeing the slaves in 'loyal' Kentucky and other United States areas or even in Confederate areas occupied by United States troops, such as New Orleans."

The Confederate War, Gary Gallagher, 1998, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press:

"The Emancipation Proclamation caused a desertion crisis in the United States Army. At least 200,000 Northern soldiers deserted; another 120,000 evaded conscription; and another 90,000 Northern men fled to Canada to evade the draft, while thousands more hid in the mountains of central Pennsylvania 'where they lay beyond the easy reach of enrolling officers.'"

Abraham Lincoln, as cited in "The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln," Roy Basler, ed. 1953 New Brunswick, N.J.,: Rutgers University Press:
"Send them to Liberia, to their own native land. But free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit this."

Abraham Lincoln, as cited in "Abraham Lincoln: His Speeches and Writings," Roy Basler, ed. 1946, New York: Da Capo:

"Some ten years later, in his December 1, 1862, message to Congress, Lincoln reiterated that 'I cannot make it better known than it already is, that I strongly favor colonization."

"A Constitutional View of the Late War between the States," Alexander Stephens , 1870, Philadelphia: National Publishing Co.:

"When asked by Confederate Vice President Alexander Stepehens at the 1865 Hampton Roads 'peace' conference what would become of the freedmen without property or education, Lincoln sarcastically recited the words to a popular minstrel song, 'root, hog or die.'"

"Freedom: A Documentary History of Emancipation," Ira Berlin, 1987, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press:

"In an April 16, 1863, letter to the War Department regarding the fate of ex-slaves should emancipation become a reality, Lincoln wrote, ''They had better be set to digging their sustinence out of the ground.'"

History of the administration of President Lincoln: including his speeches, letters, addresses, proclamations, and messages. With a preliminary sketch of his life; Raymond, Henry J.; 1864, New York, J. C. Derby & N. C. Miller, pp. 213

Pres. Lincoln's response of September 13, 1862, to a call for a General Emancipation:

"Would my word free the slaves, when I cannot even enforce the Constitution in the rebel States? And what reason is there to think it would have any greater effect upon the slaves than the late law of Congress, which I approved, and which offers protection and freedom to the slaves of rebel masters who come within our lines? Yet I cannot learn that the law has caused a single slave to come over to us."

Overland Monthly and Out West magazine/Volume 9, Issue 52, San Francisco, 1887, pp. 540, 541 - "An Episode of the Civil War," John T. Doyle

"At another time, Mr. Lincoln publicly recommended Central America to a delegation of blacks who waited on him, as suited by climate and so forth to colonization by their people.

In the fall of 1862 there appeared in New York a certain Mr. Koch, with a queer story and a queer project...he had conceived the project of taking to Santo Domingo a colony of blacks from the United States, procuring a grant of land, and settling them on it, to raise cotton.

Mr. Lincoln was entirely captivated by it; ...The President made a contract with him (Koch) for the transportation of the first colony of blacks, four hundred in number, to his (Koch's) island of La Veche, at the price, I think, of $100 per head; to be paid, one half when the colonists had embarked, and the other half when they were safely landed on the island.

Before many months were over, the President was constrained as a matter of mere humanity to send a vessel of war after the poor fellows, and the remainder of them was brought back and landed in Boston.

The last thing I heard of them was a public meeting under violent anti-slavery auspices to denounce the brutal and inhuman conduct of President Lincoln, in sending these poor men into exile; and one or two of the negroes themselves appeared at the meeting in support of the resolutions!

John T. Doyle"

"Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men," Jeffrey Rogers Hummel; Laissez Faire Books

"The Lincoln Administration imprisoned at least 14,000 (Northern) civilians throughout the course of the war. ... The federal government simultaneously monitored and censored both the mails and telegraphs. ... It also suppressed newspapers. Over three hundred, including the Chicago Times, the New York World, and the Philadelphia Evening Journal, had to cease publication for varying periods."

"Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men," Jeffrey Rogers Hummel; Laissez Faire Books

Former Democratic Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio, running for governor, "delivered a speech in May 1863 that accused the President of unnecessarily prolonging the conflict. The Union commander in Ohio" -- never a war zone -- "rousted Vallandigham from his home at night and jailed him. A military court handed down a sentence of confinement for the war's duration, but public indignation forced Lincoln to commute the sentence to exile behind Confederate lin