I was in Basic Training (A 2/80 FA) in Ft. Sill in 1989. In September of that year, my basic training platoon was at the BRM range (SPOTS range) when we were struck by a round from an M105. 23 people were injured, two were killed at the scene, and one drill sergeant died about a year later. The round was over-charged (too many powder bags) and went 2.5 miles further then it should have, landing in the training area. Our platoon guide at the time (a prior service Navy Seal who was cross-training into the Army) was actually struck by the round. He had just called "fall-in" and we were all heading for the formation when the round hit him & exploded next to the base of a tree (spraying everyone with shrapnel). There was a cover-up of sorts, as well as a very intense debriefing by the Post Commander that followed the incident. Many of my fellow soldiers (as well as myself) saved the lives of our friends by performing first aid (that we had only recently learned in BT). The only recognition or acknowledgement of the incident that I ever received was a letter in my 201 file for my gaining commander that stated that I may be suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and to keep an eye on me! The Army did a great disservice to my fellow soldiers and myself by not recognizing that we performed extremely well under the circumstances. I later eventually became a Battalion FDC Chief and served for 9 years in the Army prior to leaving in 1998. The incident still haunts me; but more importantly, I am surprised and disheartened by the way the Army handled this incident.

Is there anyone else out there that was either in A 2/80 FA or who remembers this incident? Does anyone have any of the press clippings or military documentation? I'm doing some personal research for a biography about my military career and would appreciate any information that anyone could provide.

I would really question the use of the term 'cover up'. Remember at the time of the incident you were a recruit, and though a tragic accident, I imagine the people in your chain of command were working to focus the recruits on the completion of basic.

One suggestion regarding research for your biography is to use I believe it is the national archieves which should have alot of information, because they get the CQ logs and such, though you'll really need to know how to navigate the system to obtain the information you need (plus live near DC).

A similar incident occured in either December 1988 or January 1989 to D 2/80 FA (Veit I believe was the Battalion Commander). A round was fired out of safe killing one recruit and wounding several others. The FSO was determined to be at fault, though I had moved onto C 2/80 FA for AIT so certainly didn't see/hear about everything.

'On Target'- Motto of 1/84 FA (LAR)

My old launcher chief, SSG Arrington, was hit by shrapnel in that incident. He has a scar on his face from it to this day. He always explained that it was officers in training, i guess OBC (?) who fired the rounds. Very bad accident

This message has been edited. Last edited by: JasonMLRS,

quote:

Originally posted by ajm184:
A similar incident occured in either December 1988 or January 1989 to D 2/80 FA (Veit I believe was the Battalion Commander). A round was fired out of safe killing one recruit and wounding several others. The FSO was determined to be at fault, though I had moved onto C 2/80 FA for AIT so certainly didn't see/hear about everything.

'On Target'- Motto of 1/84 FA (LAR)

Can't be the FSO's fault. It's the FDO's job to clear everything safe. Only way FSO could be responsible is if a round was fired and he told them it was observed safe when it was not.

srpeters18,

Not FSO= Fire Support Officer, rather Fire Saftey Officer. Not absolutely sure if that is the correct acronym, as I didn't know a great deal about the gun line, plus 15+ years of memory to lose.

'On Target'- Motto of 1/84 FA (LAR)

Aah, I see. Don't know that there is a fire safety officer. I don't know a whole lot about the gun line either, as I am a 13F. But I've never heard of one. Only two I could think of responsible for that are the gun chief and the Fire Direction Officer.

quote:

Originally posted by ajm184:
I would really question the use of the term 'cover up'. Remember at the time of the incident you were a recruit, and though a tragic accident, I imagine the people in your chain of command were working to focus the recruits on the completion of basic.

One suggestion regarding research for your biography is to use I believe it is the national archieves which should have alot of information, because they get the CQ logs and such, though you'll really need to know how to navigate the system to obtain the information you need (plus live near DC).

A similar incident occured in either December 1988 or January 1989 to D 2/80 FA (Veit I believe was the Battalion Commander). A round was fired out of safe killing one recruit and wounding several others. The FSO was determined to be at fault, though I had moved onto C 2/80 FA for AIT so certainly didn't see/hear about everything.

'On Target'- Motto of 1/84 FA (LAR)

The term "Cover-up" didn't come from my lips initially, it came from my Drill Sergeant's recollection of the events that followed that fateful day. I originally thought that it was just part of my job...an occupational hazard of sorts...until I became a Sergeant myself. During my military walk I was responsible for training management, long range training plans & Army Training & Evaluation Programs (ARTEPs). My mentors taught me in the old-Army style. Once you get your Sergeant's stripes, it's not about you anymore...it's about your soldiers. A leader isn't judged by his own accomplishments...he's judged by the caliber of soldier that he forges. I took those words to heart and lived by them. Knowing now what I didn't know then, we were really treated poorly. I had the opportunity to serve under some really great Americans (true heroes in every sense of the term) and every single one of them were amazed that things went down they way that they did.

I know that conspiracy theory & cover-up talk usually gets met with rolling eyes & disbelief, but I assure you, what happened to my fellow soldiers and I was not only morally wrong, it was down-right disgraceful.

I know my description may seem harsh & judgemental, but I speak through the context of personal experience, both military and private sector. The whole situation was handled badly.

Aceman,

Your description is not harsh and judgemental. Nothing is harsh if it is the truth. The issue I have is that you are not offering information that supports your two primary claims; a) there was a cover up and b) that you and your teamates were treated poorly.

With respect to a cover up, you know about it, as do the other people who were involved and as far as I can discern nobody was told not to discuss the incident. So in my mind, it is not the incident that was 'covered up', though potentially there was a cover up regarding the investigation findings, where fault lyed, etc. In my opinion this is the area you need to focus and provide detail upon before saying 'cover up', even if it comes from another party.

Regarding how you and your fellow soldiers where treated poorly. My question is, what would have you done differently? Now, I will certainly agree, that positive recognition may have been deserved by soldiers, for which none is apparent. You appear unhappy with the letter in your 201 about the gaining unit should 'keep an eye on you', yet then say the 'incident still haunts me'. So, the question is, what context do you say the incident 'still huants' you?

I'm not defending the school's conduct, rather saying that you need to bring a clearer story supporting your position.

'On Target'- Motto of 1/84 FA (LAR)

ajm184,

I can respect & understand your position. I truly haven't listed every nuance of the event or adequately detailed the chronology of events or how they unfolded.

Let me speak directly to a few things:
1) With respect to a cover up, you know about it, as do the other people who were involved and as far as I can discern nobody was told not to discuss the incident.
a. During our on-site debriefing (immediately following the incident and even prior to a prayer that was offered by a chaplain), everyone on the site was ordered (direct order from a general officer) to not discuss anything with anybody. We were told to not even talk amongst ourselves about the incident or how anyone (cadre or soldiers) reacted to it. The press was allowed to interview one soldier from our unit, but he wasn’t even at the incident site.
b. Following the incident, we were made to feel like we were bound by duty to not ask any questions about who messed up, why they messed up, what the hell happened to our friends that were now in Reynolds Army Hospital…it was like they (The cadre, BT chain of command, chaplains, JAG, everyone not directly involved with the issue) was trying to down-play the severity or seriousness of the incident. I watched a guy that I was talking to, only moments earlier, get the whole side of his head sheared off by an artillery round. Another guy ran into me holding his throat, blood spurting from a hole in his jugular, fell on me, looked into my eyes with a stare of panic that I still remember clearly to this day, and slipped into shock. You can’t get much more serious then that. The MPs even found one poor soldier running down the tank trail naked, flipping out yelling incoming (while I even initially laughed about that…when you consider what it takes to get a person to that level of insanity…it’s really not that funny).
c. We didn’t know enough about the military or our rights as soldiers at the time to understand that what they were telling us to do was not only un-healthy from a psychological standpoint, but morally wrong to boot. People need to talk their way through these kinds of tragedies, not be forced to suck it up and drive on. Of course we still talked about it, cried about it, got pissed about it…but we were told that anyone who had problems with the incident would basically be a hold-over (stuck in BT) until we got better. The last thing that any of us wanted was to be stuck under the thumbs of those insensitive jack asses any longer then we had to be. It’s easy for anyone to get the wrong message when there’s interpretation involved…but we were directly told that we would not graduate with our class if we did poorly on our psyche evals – that’s f-ing harsh! You just can’t give soldiers ultimatums like that…of course they’re going to opt to clam up and get the hell out of dodge…and they knew this…
d. No attempt was made after I left BT to follow-up or check on my mental health by anyone (even in spite of the letter in my 201 file). I even asked if there were any resources available to me when I completed AIT & was ready to be assigned to my permanent duty station…I never got a reply back from the chaplain, chain of command, or anyone…it’s like nobody knew what to say or how to deal with it, so they just ignored it. I even felt like some were almost jealous that they weren’t involved with the incident. No bragging rights or war stories to share…so they resented us for having some imaginary edge or something over them…it was really weird. At the time I wasn’t very affected; I almost expected the worst after being treated poorly & chocked the whole thing up to good training…that’s what I signed up for…right? It’s the frigging Army…what the hell did I expect – this was just a hint of things to come…war is hell (but training’s worse!)
2) Regarding how you and your fellow soldiers where treated poorly. My question is, what would have you done differently?
a. If I were charged with supervising a soldier that had just gone through what we had gone through, I wouldn’t have given them the opportunity to “Not” talk about what happened. I would have actually forced them to discuss it, especially with their peers who when through the same thing.
b. If I were the base commander, I would have recommended that every single soldier who performed first aid on their buddies get at the minimum a letter of accommodation detailing what they did and how they performed well under pressure. That CDR was in the position to put a positive spin on the military & capitalize on how well our only rudimentary training up to that point allowed us to perform superiorly under pressure. To put things into perspective…I saw sorry-***, confused & disoriented CPTs in Iraq get their units lost (multiple times), drive through mine fields because they didn’t know how to use a GPS or didn’t want to listen to their drivers…get ARCOMS, Silver Stars for bravery, & even a damn Purple Heart for getting fragged by a hastily emplaced AP mine that he accidentally brushed up against while tripping out of his vehicle (smoking a cigarette in the middle of the night) while leading a convoy. These guys got awarded for being idiots & endangering their soldiers while other soldiers that hadn’t even made it out of BT yet got screwed. Bitter…a little…but that’s how it goes…they don’t call it the Big Green Weenie for nothing!
c. If I were the chaplain who prayed with us after the base commander told us to shut-up about the incident, I would have taken a little extra time to follow-up on the status of every soldier. Chaplains can request to see orders & keep tabs on personnel that they help (they’ve got more power to intervene & assist then any other person involved). I wouldn’t simply wish the soldiers luck & send them on their way.

I’m speaking from the standpoint of a leader, father, Sergeant, and above all else an ordinary human being…the way that we were treated was wrong in every way. It was lazy and indifferent at the very least, and downright shameful & dishonorable to be more severe. The poor actions of one person or a collection of people who have a personal interest that will be negatively affected by a course of action may have a reason for acting dishonorably…they’re looking out for themselves & that’s wrong, but understandable. But to treat people the way we were treated, with no apparent motivating reason or justification, was just wrong.

I was in AIT in E Btry 3/30th I believe when that happened. We were in the Gunnery portion of our training. I believe it was either the BUCS or Charts and Darts. I am now a Iraqi OIF 2 veteran and a 1LT Btry Commander. If you want, I also know of one of the soldiers that was in that unit that came to Vermont and joined the National Guard. He served in Operation Desert Storm as an FDC for MLRS. All I can say is that I was at the ceremony that was at Fort Sill and Echo Btry had some of your soldiers come to us and the Drill Sergeants told us not to talk to the soldiers about it. They were worried that you guys might have problems. All I can say is that the events had in impact on me as a soldier from E-1 through to E-6 until I got commisioned an officer and throughout this time it has reinforced that in whatever we do from the FO to the FDC to the gun line, that we check and recheck before firing that round down range. Please know that I heard only the most proffesional comments about your platoon from other soldiers back in 1989 and also from the soldier from your platoon that joined my unit in Vermont. If you want to find out more about him you can email me and I can find out more information on him and where he is today.

1LT Richard F. LaBarre
richard.labarre@us.army.mil.

quote:

Originally posted by AceMan_RedLeg:
I was in Basic Training (A 2/80 FA) in Ft. Sill in 1989. In September of that year, my basic training platoon was at the BRM range (SPOTS range) when we were struck by a round from an M105. 23 people were injured, two were killed at the scene, and one drill sergeant died about a year later. The round was over-charged (too many powder bags) and went 2.5 miles further then it should have, landing in the training area. Our platoon guide at the time (a prior service Navy Seal who was cross-training into the Army) was actually struck by the round. He had just called "fall-in" and we were all heading for the formation when the round hit him & exploded next to the base of a tree (spraying everyone with shrapnel). There was a cover-up of sorts, as well as a very intense debriefing by the Post Commander that followed the incident. Many of my fellow soldiers (as well as myself) saved the lives of our friends by performing first aid (that we had only recently learned in BT). The only recognition or acknowledgement of the incident that I ever received was a letter in my 201 file for my gaining commander that stated that I may be suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and to keep an eye on me! The Army did a great disservice to my fellow soldiers and myself by not recognizing that we performed extremely well under the circumstances. I later eventually became a Battalion FDC Chief and served for 9 years in the Army prior to leaving in 1998. The incident still haunts me; but more importantly, I am surprised and disheartened by the way the Army handled this incident.

Is there anyone else out there that was either in A 2/80 FA or who remembers this incident? Does anyone have any of the press clippings or military documentation? I'm doing some personal research for a biography about my military career and would appreciate any information that anyone could provide.

Myself and a medic were first on sence and took 3 to the chopper, many more to the hospital. We were from the 1st Bn 17th FA. Glad I have a chance to chat with one of you guys. One of your DS was named Cook. I lived with him and his family. Tell you more if you want to know... I know more about what happened. I was the Battalion FDC chief when it happened.



Copperhead

I was there, too, after the incident. I was with HHB 1/17FA, LTC Hardie's driver. There were a lot of people involved in the investigation - I think there were at least three firing points active that day. I got the call to get the hummer at dinner and we all met up, I think at 75th FA Regiment command. It was pretty late when we figured out which section fired the round. I thought the LTC told me to radio everyone on our team that we had found something, which I did, then propmtly got reamed out for broadcasting it. I think he was worried that CNN or somebody else was monitoring the radio frequencies.

The section was firing a 5 or 6 round fire for effect, and the last round went in the tube with an uncut charge. The section chief is totally to blame - he is responsible for the safe operation of his gun! They knew they shot the round long because (go figure) it was louder than the previous ones. When I was on the gun line (4/29FA, 8th ID), I was the no. 1 cannoneer and my section chief checked every round, charge, deflection, and elevation. HE gave the order to fire, and nobody else, and only when he was satisfied that it was right.

I think the BC and the platoon leader got letters of reprimand, effectively ending their careers. I don't know what happened to the chief of section.

I saw the impact area the next day. It was like visiting a sacred place. It was quiet, nobody was there, just the remains of the damage. There was a shack or something there - it was all sliced up from the shrapnel.

I feel for you and your comrades. That event has stayed with me, too.

quote:

Originally posted by bsadlick:
I was there, too, after the incident. I was with HHB 1/17FA, LTC Hardie's driver. There were a lot of people involved in the investigation - I think there were at least three firing points active that day. I got the call to get the hummer at dinner and we all met up, I think at 75th FA Regiment command. It was pretty late when we figured out which section fired the round. I thought the LTC told me to radio everyone on our team that we had found something, which I did, then propmtly got reamed out for broadcasting it. I think he was worried that CNN or somebody else was monitoring the radio frequencies.

The section was firing a 5 or 6 round fire for effect, and the last round went in the tube with an uncut charge. The section chief is totally to blame - he is responsible for the safe operation of his gun! They knew they shot the round long because (go figure) it was louder than the previous ones. When I was on the gun line (4/29FA, 8th ID), I was the no. 1 cannoneer and my section chief checked every round, charge, deflection, and elevation. HE gave the order to fire, and nobody else, and only when he was satisfied that it was right.

I think the BC and the platoon leader got letters of reprimand, effectively ending their careers. I don't know what happened to the chief of section.

I saw the impact area the next day. It was like visiting a sacred place. It was quiet, nobody was there, just the remains of the damage. There was a shack or something there - it was all sliced up from the shrapnel.

I feel for you and your comrades. That event has stayed with me, too.

I was in charge of Bn FDC. I was the one who called Cease Fire Freeze. I heard Spots range call in that they had taken an Incoming round and had 4 men down.

Copperhead

I was finishing my OR training, my last day actually, when this happened. I am also haunted by the memories of all the injured. I was so sad to hear that the DS had died. I too had searched for any info, even a news report...this was the closest I've found.

quote:

Originally posted by 8953836:
I was finishing my OR training, my last day actually, when this happened. I am also haunted by the memories of all the injured. I was so sad to hear that the DS had died. I too had searched for any info, even a news report...this was the closest I've found.

If you want to know what happened I can tell you. I was there.



Copperhead

Yes, I'd like to know more. I think of that day almost every day. I'd like to know what others experienced. I'm not familiar with this site, and not sure how to PM, etc.

Elizabeth

quote:

Originally posted by glamzilla:
Yes, I'd like to know more. I think of that day almost every day. I'd like to know what others experienced. I'm not familiar with this site, and not sure how to PM, etc.

Elizabeth

I just have to ask, where were you at the hospital or in the assmbly area or on one of the ambulances.

I have no problem telling you anything. Where do you want me to start.


Copperhead

quote:

Originally posted by glamzilla:
Yes, I'd like to know more. I think of that day almost every day. I'd like to know what others experienced. I'm not familiar with this site, and not sure how to PM, etc.

Elizabeth

You were on the range that day at spots.



Copperhead

I was in the OR, finishing my AIT. We were there ALL night (obviuosly) and hardly a day goes by that i don't think about it and all the guys.

Elizabeth

quote:

Originally posted by glamzilla:
I was in the OR, finishing my AIT. We were there ALL night (obviuosly) and hardly a day goes by that i don't think about it and all the guys.

Elizabeth

I still remember some of the face of the men and woman that day. I remember the young soldier sitting on the floor and asking a nurse if he was going to die. I remember her talking with him to calm him down, it worked.

I remember the men and woman in the OR and the great job they all did that day. If it wasn't for all of you we mite have lost more men...


Do you want to know how it all happened from start to finish.


Copperhead