Hello Chiefs,

I was just curious, what were some of the reasons why you guys turned down commissions?

Thanks Chiefs!

There are more reasons that can ever be written here. One thing that really jumped out at me though was your post. Started respectful, Hello Chiefs.....Ended Thanks Chiefs!!!! To me that sums it up. Any good Chief Petty Officer can nod and think that the question answers itself. On the other hand, the Chiefs that do become Officers do it for a number of reasons. More responsibility. The chance to command, money, family, to better the Navy...you name it. It's tempting, but CPO has been in my blood since birth.

Kingsmate pretty much summed it up for me.

Also, I never really felt the desire to enter the Wardroom. Nothing against them, but just didn't feel it was in my best interests.

I don't want another uniform issue. I keep it simple.

I have to come up with excuses all the time on why I don't want to be an officer. My Grandpa made Master in 13, and spent the last 8 years of his career being a CMC of sorts, before there were CMCs. He said his only mistake in the Navy was not becoming an officer. I tell him all the time, hey Gramps, ya didn't make too many mistakes putting on Master Chief in 13 years. He says I'm young enough that I could still hit CDR, maybe even Capt, but I just don't want to go that route. It is tempting, I'm just not sure that it's for me.

My husband turned down a commission for a couple of reasons, mainly because he loved being a chief. He felt that his place was taking care of his people, not making policy.

He was ostracized by some, was told he'd never make Master Chief and told he was making the biggest mistake of his life. In fact the Captain was the only one who understood and respected his decision for himself and our family.

He has never regreted not taking that commission and made Master Chief soon after.

Then again, in my experience, the best CO's I've had are former enlisted.

And now for an opposing viewpoint…

I applied for and accepted a commission.

It was a business decision..

I was in a closed rate. When it did open, and I was selected for CPO they also selected a large number of SCPOs.

Additionally we were in the midst of transitioning to newer model aircraft and the newer manning documents had didn’t have my job anymore, I was being shipped off to a new life.

With a large number of young, junior SCPOs right in front of me I figured that the SCPO quotas would be pretty small in years to come (and I was correct, next SCPO was selected when I was a W-4 selectee)

And I stayed in community and on the hangar deck…

Just for clarification, and it something that confused me for a while....You accepted a warrant from the Navy. A commission is given by the President. I always thought it was the same thing until some of my Deppers started asking about the difference between the two.

I remember being taught that also but I also remember being told that things had changed.

I have a three certificates from the President using the word Commission to reference my change in CWO pay grade (had to dig them out to be sure myself)

Following is a reference that I found in a quick search..

Some of my best memories are of my Chief days and my Navy social circle is my old Chief’s Mess…

http://buperscd.technology.navy.mil/bup_updt/508/milpers/1426-010.htm

References
(a) OPNAVINST 1420.1A

1. Policy

a. All chief warrant officers (CWOs) receive permanent officer appointment upon acceptance to CWO2/3 from their prior enlisted status (reference (a)). Permanent appointment as CWO in the Regular Navy is made by commission of the President. Permanent appointment as CWO in the Navy Reserve is made by commission of Secretary of the Navy (SECNAV).

well, isn't that something. I was just told the warrant thing by an RDC. That's what they are teaching folks up at boot camp about Officers and Warrants. I better get word to 'em. Thanks!

Opposing view

I took the commission since it seemed a normal progression from Career Counselor and classifier. I attended EEAP as part of the last group selected and obtained my BA in psychology. I learned about the clinical psychology program at USUHS and applied. Luckily for me the retired Captain in charge of the program was the son of a WWII Chief. Initially the change was a pain trying to adjust to being an Ensign and not even being around a Navy Command but since being out in "fleet" (i.e. navy hospital) it is much better. And I get to make an impact with a lot of Marines and Sailors.

As an Organization Development professional and former Chief-eligible First Class who earned a commission, I have studied this question in detail. What I have found is that reaching CPO is the pinnacle of many enlisted careers. If not the peak it is certainly a milestone from which many, if not most, would be able to accept as their final promotion. In other words, “I made Chief. If I am not promoted again, I can live with that.”

In most of the cases that I have studied, there is a fear of stepping out of a comfort zone. After all, as a Chief you are the technical expert and you know how to carry out all of the administrative tasks necessary to perform well in your role. You belong to “the Club”. You have your own clubhouse, full of like-minded people who have had similar experiences to yours. You have been initiated and you have held all the secrets that you are required to hold. You speak the Chief language.

Leaving the clubhouse for the wardroom, for most, represents stepping out of the club. It is in fact, stepping out of your comfort zone. It is nothing to be ashamed of. Most people in all walks of life fear stepping out of their comfort zones.

Professionally speaking, becoming an Ensign will require that you deal with the perception that you turned your back on your fellow Chiefs. It requires, to some degree, that you will be treated like an Ensign in spite of all of your years of experience and proving yourself. To accept a commission means that you will drop from the top of one heap to the bottom of another heap. You will have to go back to school to be taught the basics of how to perform in your new role and you will have to stumble and mistakes while you learn. Just like you did when you were a Seaman.

As a commissioned officer, you will be held accountable for things that are not readily within your control. Managing at that level requires a whole new set of skills, a set of skills that you may not have as a Chief. A set of skills that will have to be developed in your new role. Commissioned officers, during the course of a career, will have responsibilities that far exceed those of a Chief Petty Officer. Officers are required to know more, do more, and hold more responsibility. Most Chiefs have a hard time admitting that. They like to fall back on “Chiefs run the Navy”.

But face it. Chiefs do not command ships or submarines. Why does the Navy choose to put an inexperienced 23-year old in the cockpit of an FA-18 landing on a flight deck instead of a Chief who has 10-15 years of Navy experience? People who perceive being a Chief as being at the top of the heap are not seeing the big picture.

Admittedly, it is difficult to go from being seen as an “expert” to being seen as an “ensign”. There is nothing easy about it. The ribbing and teasing. Being put into situations that you have never dealt with before. Falling on your face once or twice. I do believe that more Chiefs could handle this transition if they were willing to take the first step and admit to themselves that they aren’t just going to be perceived as an ensign, but they will actually be an ensign and that they have a whole lot to learn.

This situation is not unlike an 8th grade Middle School student who is preparing to leave Middle School to go to go into 9th grade, or the bottom of the High School heap - A Freshman. Ugh! (an Ensign. Ugh!) It is a situation that causes anxiety. The difference is that we don’t consider the transition of going from 8th grade to 9th grade a choice. It is something that we are all required to do. Going from CPO to a commissioned officer on the other hand, is a choice. And frankly, when most Chiefs are given the choice they back away from it, either because of fear or because they made to choice to prepare themselves to be qualified for a commission. Most Chiefs in the Navy haven’t put the effort in to earn a college degree.

Let’s all try to accept that reasons like “I can take better care of my people” or “I can have more of an impact” are nothing more than excuses. These excuses are given by people who have rationalized the decision to stay in the comfort zone. I assume the reason “I didn’t want another uniform issue. I want to keep it simple” was just thrown out there as a joke. That’s fine, but, it is a too common example of avoiding the reality of the question.

There is no shame in being a Chief Petty Officer. In fact, it is something to be proud of. The Navy needs good Chiefs. And the Navy also needs good officers. Former Chiefs make some of the very best officers I have ever seen or had the good fortune to serve with. If you are one of the Chiefs who has not pursued a commission, at least be honest with yourself about why you made that decision (or never put yourself in a position where you were qualified to even consider that decision). Be proud of who you are and what you have accomplished. But accept your fears and your limitations. Stop giving excuses. I haven’t heard a single Chief on this thread give any of the following reasons:

• Because I was afraid of getting out of my comfort zone
• I didn’t prepare myself by getting a degree
• I only wanted to climb halfway up the ladder
• I didn’t want to step up to that kind of responsibility
• I didn’t want to make the effort
• I’m on easy street. Why mess with that?

Where’s the honesty? Where are the Honor, Courage, and Commitment? All of us in the Navy would benefit by seeing the CPO position for what it is – an earned position of respect and responsibility that is roughly one-third of the way up the pay scale. It shouldn’t be thought of as a stopping point or the Holy Grail. Making Chief is something to be extremely proud of, so bask in the glow, pat yourself on the back, do your very best at it, and keep pushing on.

Believe me, by continuing to learn, to fight, and to climb you are better serving yourself and the Navy. You are also better preparing yourself for what life in the civilian world after your retirement. With all due respect, out here no one really cares that you were a Chief. There is no “awe factor” for former Chiefs. After retirement, you will have to learn your job and earn respect all over again. Just like a brand new Ensign does.

Real nice post from the guy that never made Chief. I'd rather be a Chief than a Commander any day. The burden that the anchor bears is more than an officer will ever know. Chiefs do run the Navy. They are the backbone. It has nothing to do with fear of the unknown, or getting out of the comfort zone. Chiefs train junior officers to make sure when they are in charge they don't make bogus policy or make stupid comments. Pretty lengthy post though. Must have a lot of time on your hands. I'm sure it was no different when you where in the fleet.

MustangFred -

Couple of things here.

First off, the Chiefs do not run the Navy; we make it run. The CO sets out where they want the command to go - we then take that and put it into practice.

Second, you listed the following as reasons:

"• Because I was afraid of getting out of my comfort zone
• I didn’t prepare myself by getting a degree
• I only wanted to climb halfway up the ladder
• I didn’t want to step up to that kind of responsibility
• I didn’t want to make the effort
• I’m on easy street. Why mess with that?"

Those are not reasons; they are very lame excuses. I will plead guilty to the one about the degree, and that is something I will have to live with.

Every day I served as a Chief before I retired, I was outside my "comfort zone". If I wanted to be comfortable and live on "easy street" I would have stayed an E-6 instead of being a First Class and then competing honestly to be a Chief. Climbing halfway up the ladder - depends on what your goals are. It would have been nice to make SCPO/MCPO, but I wasn't going to get too worried about it. As for the comment about responsibility, I was a reservist in the Voluntary Training Unit last year. That is a unit made up of personnel in a non-pay status either in search of a pay billet (primarily officers) or personnel who are no longer authorized to drill for pay due to HYT and either need some extra time for retirement or just like serving. I was detailed to a unit with a mission that deals in expeditionary logistics as the Senior Enlisted Advisor. No one twisted my arm, but they needed some help and I stepped in. When the XO was mobiliized I found myself "fleeted up" to that position with the CO on detail for several months at battalion HQ working on mobilization plans. I didn't need the responsibility but then it wasn't about what I wanted, but what the Navy needed from me.

As for the comment about life in the civilian world, I will agree with you. But then, no one will care if you were a Navy Officer when you apply for a civilian job - all they will care about is whether or not you show the ability to do what your employer will pay you to do.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Boats22151,

Actually the Navy recently ran an experiment with Chiefs as Div-O's on one of the surface ships. They stated in Navy Times that it was a resounding success but do not want to implement it Navy-wide because Chief's need to focus on things other than managing.

The division officers to BECOME Captains and Admirals need guidance from their Chiefs. Chiefs train both junior enlisted AND junior officers. Chiefs need to retain some ability to jump in there and get hands on.

As far as pilots, the Navy continues to run their new flying Warrant program. Being a warrant requires enlisted experience and technical skills. The Navy not only gets pilots who will be pilots for life (as opposed to moving up to desk jockey once they get to high of an O-paygrade) but also can pay them less than their CDR equivalents.

I'm sure MustangFred does not regret receiving a commission, nor will I if I can get one, but that doesn't mean you should knock someone elses goal.
The degree thing is an invalid argument since degrees are not required for LDO's or Warrants and the Navy is encouraging its Seniors and Masters to get degrees (and many already have them)

I don't see how being a CMC, Fleet MC, Force MC, or MCPON is "less" than being a LCDR. I would say most of them probably get a lot of respect from CDRs and CAPT's. You can actually take a pay-cut too at a certain point in your career. (Although isn't there something called save-pay?)
The choice is not be a Chief or be a Captain. . .thats not realistic.
The choice is at the end of a career be a Master Chief (maybe CMC, FCMC, or MCPON) or be a LCDR.
Do you think the Navy would retain the COB or CMC billets if they thought it was a bad idea? Those didn't exist originally. A lot of CO's thought the Navy was placing a "spy" on their boat by creating it. Since then the position has proven its value creating useful checks and balances.

The Air Force took a different take. When E-8 and E-9 were created the AF used these super-enlisted paygrades to justify canning all WO CWO's and LDO's. They don't use 'em. What does that say about the real value of E-8's and E-9's? So do I propose all Warrants and LDO's are just making excuses to avoid a "REAL" job?

I would agree that any quality Chief is going to have a higher goal. Don't make value judgements if their goal is LDO, Warrant, URL officer, Master Chief, Senior Chief, MCPON, CMC, Fleet MC, or any other goal they have. As long as they are striving to be better I don't think anyone has the right to criticize.

I'm actually going for OCS, because with a degree ENS and LTjg are more in my comfort zone than being a Chief. JO's lead because they learn quick and have a degree (and the good ones know to listen to their chiefs). Chiefs lead because they have experience. As a 1st Class who is up for board at 7 years I feel I'm a little more on the quick learner side than the experience side of the house. (And I am comfortable shutting my mouth and listening to the Chief.)
On the off chance I make Chief this year, I would still consider that an excellent goal and I will throw myself into the task at hand the best I can. Nothing wrong with having several concurrent goals either.

Both of you, very well put. A lot of great points there. I waited a little while before I posted anything else, as I was a steamed a bit by his post. On the Peleliu, and most amphibs, Chiefs are Divos in AIMD. So the division officers for one of the most critical departments on the ship are Chiefs. Imagine that. I've never seen an Ensign, or pretty much any officer have the same skill sets as a good Chief. While a Chief can step in and fill an officers role pretty much anytime. I don't think anyone here is making excuses on why they are only moving up part of the food chain. Good Chiefs don't think that way. It's about taking care of the mission and taking care of Sailors. That's what it's all about. Not what money you make or what respect you'll get in the civilian world. If I cared about that I'd be out of the Navy by now.

[QUOTE
This situation is not unlike an 8th grade Middle School student who is preparing to leave Middle School to go to go into 9th grade, or the bottom of the High School heap - A Freshman. Ugh! (an Ensign. Ugh!) It is a situation that causes anxiety. The difference is that we don’t consider the transition of going from 8th grade to 9th grade a choice.
[/QUOTE]

I don't know about you but I had a choice in which high school to attend. So let's say we are all in 8th grade. Do you want to go to the vocational oriented high school with mechanic, computer, and shop classes? Or do you want to go to the "special" liberal arts magnet school? Neither is any less of a 9th grade or less of a high school. They just prepare you for different duties. Sure automechanics make less than lawyers frequently. Nonetheless the lawyer makes no money if he can't get his car fixed because he was rude to the automechanic.

quote:

Let’s all try to accept that reasons like “I can take better care of my people” or “I can have more of an impact” are nothing more than excuses. These excuses are given by people who have rationalized the decision to stay in the comfort zone.

Bullshit! To pretend to speak with authority about other's experiences or reasons for their decisions is a fool's task that you apparently readily volunteered for.

Of course those who think as you do tend to be extremely suprised when they retire, are hired by a civilian company and find out their team leader is a Master Chief with an MBA.

It's a little bit of chicken and egg thinking

I always felt that the reason especially in the surface Navy that they had all those "useless" Divo billetts, you know the type, normally filled by guys that sole mission in life is driving the ship without running into anything long enough to get there SWO pin but when they are not doing that are more than content to sit in there staterooms and play Nintendo while they let the LCPO "run things" Until they get out after 5 years. Was because the Navy had to have something to do with all those JO's that they kept making every year.

Have you wondered where all those idiot Dept heads come from??

Eliminate NROTC, The USNA would be able to make more than enough officers.

I always thought the Navy would be better off if they made greater use of LDO's in all Divo positions not just a few like EMO for example, let them go on to be Dept heads even CO's if they stuck around long enough. You would need to make all those JO's to begin with and it would help open up the rates for the guys that wanted to stay enlisted.

I guess that would have made TOO much sense.

The problem is relying to much on LDO's means you won't develop enough Admirals. LDO's, as the Navy commissions them, only have between 12 and 22 years left, at best.
This was proved as well with the CNO's Chief as Div-O test on that one surface ship. Navy Times had a big article about it. The problem was that Chief's were great Div-O's but now how do you train Officers for their future responsibilities?
You are correct in that the Navy could choose to use more LDO's but they would have to revamp the program to ensure some people can make it that far. So we're talking commissioning people at their 3,4,5 year mark/regardless of paygrade vice minimum of 8 years of service/and eligible for Chief. Oh wait, thats called OCS and STA-21.

There's actually a former STS1 I know who retired at 20 years with a Masters and two Bachelors. He used to be a "dirty blueshirt" but in his new job a full bird calls him "Sir."