I'm applying to the Coast Guard as a Direct Commission Lawyer. As such, I'll go in as an O-3. I'll be required to do four years at my first duty station, at which point I'll have the option of either continuing to do law or becoming a regular line officer. What are the chances a DCL could command a vessel? Particularly, a cutter-size vessel? Or even XO?

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Originally posted by SabreKhan:
I'm applying to the Coast Guard as a Direct Commission Lawyer. As such, I'll go in as an O-3. I'll be required to do four years at my first duty station, at which point I'll have the option of either continuing to do law or becoming a regular line officer. What are the chances a DCL could command a vessel? Particularly, a cutter-size vessel? Or even XO?

CGC Mellon had a lawyer as CO from 2005 to 2007.

Thanks for the reply!

It's certainly possible to become an XO or CO of a cutter as a lawyer. As the previous posting has pointed out. It has been done.

Your case may be a little different, and I would encourage you to closely consider the issue before committing to the CG. I had experienced a similar issue having been commissioned through OCS.

A fact of life in the Coast Guard is that deck officers have a have a career path that starts as an ENS/LTJG with division-level billets afloat. The LT level billets are either department level on large cutters, or XO on small cutters. The prerequisite for either is to have prior seagoing experience. Its extremely rare, but not unheard of, for an officer to get a seagoing billet without having experience at the ENS/LTJG level.

I saw the "handwritting on the wall" and did everything possible to get a seagoing billet out of OCS. It worked, and it was the best move that I ever made.

I strongly suspect that the CG lawyer described in the earlier post may have been a OCS/Academy accession who completed an initial sea tour, and then entered the law program. The CG sends a select number of officers to law school each year.

The Coast Guard does an outstanding job of taking care of its lawyers, and providing them with meaningful "out-of-specialty" tours. There's also good operational tours ashore that don't require seagoing experience. We just had a Commandant who lacked the traditionally held Cutterman's Pin or Aviator's Wings.

Best wishes as you move forward.

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We just had a Commandant who lacked the traditionally held Cutterman's Pin or Aviator's Wings.

We've had more than 1.

quote:

Originally posted by SabreKhan:
I'm applying to the Coast Guard as a Direct Commission Lawyer. As such, I'll go in as an O-3. I'll be required to do four years at my first duty station, at which point I'll have the option of either continuing to do law or becoming a regular line officer. What are the chances a DCL could command a vessel? Particularly, a cutter-size vessel? Or even XO?

As you've seen from the posts above, it's possible for a CG lawyer to get into a position of command. However, that path is far from clear in reality. There is NO established officer 'career path' that prepares a DCL JAG officer for command at sea.

To summarize a couple of the earlier posts, I'm sure many lawyers have had command opportunities, though I suspect most of them got those crucial O-1 O-2 afloat JO(junior officer) tours under their belts first, either straight out of the Academy or OCS, and went on later to law school, then back afloat again. While I'm sure you'd be a great deck officer or engineer, I think the problem basically is that you've 'inserted' into the service at a a higher rank (O-3) because of what you offer as a lawyer, and on a ship an O-3 would be expected to have a certain amount of afloat experience that comes from those two earlier tours. But by all means, check with your mentors or detailer and discuss your options, like almost anything else you are pretty much limited by your ingenuity and tenacity. Good luck!

I graduated from the Academy in 1970, had a tour afloat, a tour on an isolated duty station, was selected for law school and graduated in 1977. After several legal tours I served as XO of Support Center New Orleans from 1987 to 1989 and CO of TRACEN Cape May from 1994 to 1998. So, it can be done.

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CGC Mellon had a lawyer as CO from 2005 to 2007.

But probably not a DCL lawyer. Confidence had a lawyer as an XO, but it was a CGA grad that became a lawyer later.

It's tough for a DCL to get command afloat. When the CG started bringing in DCL's as O-3 instead of O-4's, it pretty much shut that road down. I know of one DCL who is in the command afloat pipeline, but that's only because she was able to serve as Weps on a 378 as an O-3 following her initial legal tour.

Starting as an O-3 puts you at a severe disadvantage because you will quickly be a mid/senior LT after your initial legal tour. At that point, it's almost impossible to get into the afloat community.

Other options - can you go to OCS and come in as an O1? You could always do a legal tour after you first/second afloat tours.

Also - you could try to get into the Sector community. Maybe as a Logistics Dept Head or Enforcement Branch Chief for your second tour after your DCL payback?

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When the CG started bringing in DCL's as O-3 instead of O-4's

D'oh! I meant "instead of O-2's"

I'm trying to get into the DCL program right now.
I've always wanted to go to sea. What did your friend have to do to get a WEPS tour on a 378 right after her initial legal tour? Any chance of getting an afloat billet right out of DCO School/Naval Justice School? Any advice on how to do it? Thanks so much.

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Any chance of getting an afloat billet right out of DCO School/Naval Justice School? Any advice on how to do it?

Well, the USCG would commission you through the DCL program to do legal work. It's very difficult to get to a ship as a JO coming in to the Coast Guard in general. Lots of people coming in and not enough shipboard space. If you want to do it, it MAY be a better idea to apply through the OCS program instead. There is NO SET PROCESS for coming in as an officer with a guarantee that you'll get a shipboard billet upon graduation.

I'm curious. Why would you earn a BA/BS, take the LSAT, get into law school, suffer through 3 years of exams and pain, earn your doctorate, pass the Bar in whichever state you desire, then go through NJS, all to go to get aboard a ship-- something you could have done with just your undergrad degree?

Don't get me wrong-- I fully understand your desire to go to sea. I had an absolute blast as a JO aboard a ship. I learned a great deal, and I value my shipboard experience immensely. And I truly loved being on active duty, and I love being in the Coast Guard.

However, I finished my last class in law school last night (as a matter of fact), and now only 4 exams stand between me and a JD. So I understand the process you've been through.

For that reason, I don't understand why you want to go to sea instead of starting out a legal career. You chose a very difficult path in going to law school. Practicing law in the military will have its own set of interesting problems and challenges.

If you truly desire to go to sea instead of practicing law, talk to an officer recruiter-- it might be easier for you to come into the Coast Guard through the OCS program.

It was really a matter of good timing. Since she was a junior O-3 at the time (having come in as a O-2), the cutter was willing to put her in a DWO slot then fleet her up to Weps. Again, since folks come in as O-3's now - they're senior O-3's when they finish their payback tour and there is really no option to get into a DWO billet.

As for going afloat after DCL/NJS - it's not going to happen. You're brought into the CG as a Lawyer through the DC"L" program. If you really want to go afloat - go to OCS and compete for an afloat billet. As an attorney - you could always ask for a legal billet later on. But by trying to go DCL, come in as a LT, and then go afloat without doing a legal tour - you'd be trying to have your cake and eat it too.

This is an old post, but it's worth a response since so many DCLs ask about this.

As a current DCL, I can tell you first hand there is virtually no chance of going afloat. There are out-of-specialty opportunities, but these are typically in jobs that have a strong legal nexus. Currently, prevention billets & military intelligence are the most likely options. Yah, every few years a DCL comes along who manages to go to flight school or someone manages to get underway -- but those are tremendous exceptions, and those DCLs tend to have an engineering background.

Coming in as an 03 has it's advantages, but part of the problem is that you're too senior to do much in the way of a career change. DCL's come into zone for 04 in year 4 or 5 (depending on whether you commissioned before or after the USCGA class that year). That means a lot of seniority awfully quickly. A few years back, DCLs came in as 02s and that allowed more time & opportunity in other operational fields.

Think about the afloat jobs that go to senior 03s & junior 04s -- anyone really want to give a guy with 4 years in as a lawyer (i.e., me) command of a 110? make me the OPS on a 378 or the XO of a buoy tender? We had a DCL in the last year who really busted his hump to get quals and underway time, and he had no luck at all. The legal program finally told the JO DCLs that it was unrealistic.

Still the best job I've ever had, and I'm looking forward to life at a Sector (w/ fingers crossed) sometime next year.

If you have other DCL questions, be sure to get in touch with a DCL recruiting liaison. Every legal office has one, and your recruiter should be able to track one down for you to speak to.

Good luck.