back at you in regards to dayworking OSs afloat!

I have not seen a single unit that had all of it's people trained, qualified and competent to todays standards. When that happens, then maybe the Chief's can daywork. For those folks that say 'so-and-so' needs to be around for the regular wirk day to do 'so-and-so,' then that person is a great candidate for the 4-8s! We all have different backgrounds. I guess mine is what makes me just shudder that anyone would even think of having a dayworker afloat in our rating. In my sea-time, nobody in my rating was ever a dayworker. NOBODY, period.

If someone can show me a unit where every OS is qualified at Comms Watch, every OS2 and up as a CIC watchstander and every OS1 as a CIC watch sup, then they can take a breath and have dayworkers. Everyone has work to do in between watches and that may or may not relate to what compartment they stand watch in. (It should be irrelevant as we are all OSs). Four on/Eight off with normal ships work between 0730 and 1530 is a normal routine!

I love throwing out "choose your rate, choose your fate" only because #1 I KNOW it grates on people (teehee) and it's annoyed the piss out of me as well. My other half is a retired BMC and I've heard it more then once from him comparing STA's duty (duty, day work, off) to our cushy schedule. Or as he used to say "You should be fired for collecting a pay check"

I don't think anyone in their right mind would complain about 8 hour watches as long as you had enough watch standers to do that. They attempted 8 hours here and it worked for the Comms because they had enough watch standers. It would not work for the Command Center unless we stood 8 days in a row - 8 hour watches or 3 - 8 hours watches, 1 day off, 3 watches, 1 off, and that was without any leave authorized. So in an ideal world 8's would be great. However, more often then not, it's just not feasible.

quote:

1. Compensation for significant periods of unusually extensive working hours.

Master Chief,

How does this not apply to the normal watch? It says extensive working hours. Work hours are just that work hours, doesn't matter if they are watch, or day work. I see alot of day workers get slidding weekends cause they had to stand duty on a weekend once every two months. Here you get a day off cause you had to work an extra day...... hummmmm, seems like to men anyone working over what the command deems to be a normal work week, without lunch breaks and work out periods would be extensive work hours and would deserve 96's. That's on land of course, working on a cutter is a whole other monster.

Seems to me I am not the only one that thinks this way too. Only reason anyone would get 96's is if they were short on people. Which seems to be the case since the 8 years of my career standing watch, on land and at sea. Always thought the watch rotation would be so much better at my next unit, then I get there and it's the same. Looks like someone listened the rumor is we're getting 4 new billeted watch standers.... right before I leave of course.

sillybeep,

I agree with you. Once the change came about here w/ 96's being "unauthorized" that's what I mentioned too. Working 50-60 hours a week (on land) IS working unusually extensive work hours. However, as we know, that doesn't mean much once someone has a particular opinion about it.

Let's use Joline's figures - the low end ones.


There are 168 hours in a week. To get 50 hours in on watch, that would mean that only 3.3 people worked that week. (2.8 people splitting the watch for 60 hours). So, if you only got 3 people splitting up the watch for significant period well then a 96 when you get two or three more people back in the rotation may be warranted. Now, when you have 4 people to split the watches, you only get 42 hour a week. Five people do 34 hours a week.

As you see above, I already talked about some self imposed issues. If Commands do up watch schedules like a 4 on 4 off, then they are talking in circles, trying to justify 96s by the way they choose to do a watch when they could change the schedule so that they do no have 4 on. No matter what, EVERYONE STANDS THE SAME AMOUNT OF WATCH!

One thing I haven't hit on yet is balance. Remember, on those occasions where you are doing "50-60" hours, you will end up on the other side when you are doing 34 hours. Do you want to call that a wash, or do you want to get day working days.

Master Chief,

I do agree with most of what your saying. Except the issue with after you worked extensive work hours 50-60 a week you end up on the other side doing 34 hours. That sounds like a statement I hear from people who don't stand watch. I mean every Command I have been at has always said that's the perfect time to have a training day, all hands, AOR run, Helo run, visit the visiting cutter, TAD to almost anything you can think of, ISC 300 trainging for example. Just about anything you can think of instead of liberty. I am not complaining, I am actually behind the command on most of these choices. I feel alot of people who cry about training are usually the ones that need it most. If not for knowledge for maturity.
I just wanted to remind everyone that when you look at a schedule, the days your scheduled to stand watch, are not the only times your at work. Most people tend to forget that. I mean honestly, I bet you could walk into almost any command center and ask the person in charge of setting up training, why did you pick that day for training and the answer will probably be, that's when most people were off, enjoying liberty or recovery time as I like to call it. I still believe the 96's aren't just an hours "numbers" game. Most people get lunch, work out, training, morale days, beach clean up days, holidays, anything you can think of to not come to work days, all during their 40 hour work week. Not so for the OS, any of that stuff listed has to be done on a day off, or during leave. I still feel you can make a strong case for 96's. So I can already hear what some are about to say.... Choose your rate, Choose your fate. Makes me wonder why people couldn't figure out why OS's advanced so fast, you couldn't keep a OS to stay in.

quote:

sillybeep,

I agree with you. Once the change came about here w/ 96's being "unauthorized" that's what I mentioned too. Working 50-60 hours a week (on land) IS working unusually extensive work hours. However, as we know, that doesn't mean much once someone has a particular opinion about it.

LOL, you know how that goes, your held to the letter of the law in the Manual, unless it works out to your favor.

You are mostly on the right track, I just got to kill some of the myths like we 'normally' work 60 hour weeks. I also got to point out inherent flaws in some arguements like giving 96s is a must becuase we schedule 4 12s in a row.

I wasn't implying that we always work 60 hour weeks. Again, trust me when I say that even though we DO work excessive hours I would never rather be day working even with all the extra time they get off (i.e. sunshine liberty!?)

I stand 84 hours of watch every 2 weeks (I never compare a WEEK because it changes often with leave etc, this is average). That's 84 hours without lunch, without "sports" lunch, without "doctor" or "dentist" appointments, without early liberty on Fridays, without morale BBQ/lunch/pizza, and the plethora of other 'perks' mentioned by sillybeep.

On top of 84 hours - we come in on off days for training, all hands meetings, the watch standers are up 4 hours after mid watches for training and then come in for a mid watch that same night. We go to doctors appointments on our days off. (as we should!)


The big picture is - we do and have always worked excessive hours. Shift schedules is one of the worst things that you can put your body through - mind you - I'll GLADLY put my body through the sleep deprivation if I can have my random Wed off to buy my groceries or go shopping without the annoyance of all those people! (BLET!).

I'm not even sure if watch standers are complaining about NOT having 96's. I think it's more that folks that don't/haven't stood watches think we don't deserve it.

This is going to come down to one thing and that is the definition of significant periods of unusually extensive.

You have my view.

Jekel,

I think we should break it down even more than what you did. If you remember my statement about the way we did it in my Sector. We did 6am to 6pm one day then off 24 hours and 6pm to 6am then off 72. In my opinion I think that is the best way you can do it. I figured out the hours based off of that schedule and it breaks down like this for us compared to dayworkers on a forty hour work week and a 31 day month, base off of that

31 DAYS= 744 HOURS
31 DAYS FOR WORKING 2 ON 3 OFF= 156 HOURS
31 DAYS FOR DAYWORKERS= 184

I think its a little more fair (if thats what the argument is) that we give up a little personal time for training. I know it sucks and I hate it too but we could be overseas instead. Just my thought.

"Im on a cutter that has dayworking for OS`s underway, thats obsurd and I made my case to my Command and it got shot down. There is a cutter that ties up next to us that doesnt have dayworking for anyone underway, their Chiefs run the shop and thats the way it should be."

HAHA, now that's classic. I am one of those cutters that does not have dayworking OS's. Certain circumstances may warrant the need for someone to day work..maybe, but not all the time. Yes my chief's (cic and radio) run the shop however i do stand watch and still find the time to learn to take over the shop from my chief's; heck my OSC's are just there to ensure there is a smooth flow. Any competent 1st can run both shops and have seen it many times.

As far as land units...well coming from a sector where i stood comms watch for 2 years then went to the Sar controller for the last 2 yrs, life there was cake. One week we would end up working 50+ hours then the next week was like 30 or something...so it all balanced out. Of course not having the red letter holidays off with the wife was a pain....yet i just kept thinking about the time i did have off and any ill thoughts just went away.

OS1 H.

One of the funniest exercise I see people do is search for a watch rotation that makes the 'least' amount of hours. I love to watch how much energy they expend before they realize that no matter HOW you divide up the watch duties between X number of people, they will always stand the same amount over even a short period of time. I believe that shifting a person sleep schedule within 24 hours like above is insane! It doesn't take a scientist to figure out how that affects a body. The more consistant you can make a schedule, the better. Of course, at some point, even that becomes too long. I think the best answer is between 1 and 3 months.

BUR: Your schedule seems to assume a five person pool. Try this for me. See if you can figure out a way to give people a 'pattern.' There is at least one way to set up a five person rotation so that every person stands the same watches, on the same day, every week. Give it a shot and then I will give you an example.

I would hate hate hate to do 1 - 3 months all days or nights. Your body gets used to it after about 3 weeks... you stand another 2 months of that and you jack up your mind, body and "soul" even more when attempting to change over to stand the opposite for 1 - 3 months. I can't remember where I read it but 'stastics' have shown that it's actually more conducive to an individual to stand no more then 2 weeks of days or nights straight so when switching over it doesn't wreck such havoc on your mind and body. This was just a recent article to... and when I say recent I mean 3 - 4 months ago

This sounds to me like an awful lot of crying from people who get to go home to their families every night (or day as the case may be). Yes you might have watch on a federal holiday or a saturday but you were still there for half the day. Better off then your underway counterparts. If you put half as much time into studying and preparing for exams as apparently is spent complaining about the watch schedule you could be in the posisiton of the supervisor who you think could be doing a much better job then they are.

Next time you are tired and can't believe you have to go to training, just remember that the six hours or so of sleep you do get is in your own bed, in your own house, with your friends and family.

quote:

Originally posted by jade9202:
"Im on a cutter that has dayworking for OS`s underway, thats obsurd and I made my case to my Command and it got shot down. There is a cutter that ties up next to us that doesnt have dayworking for anyone underway, their Chiefs run the shop and thats the way it should be."

HAHA, now that's classic. I am one of those cutters that does not have dayworking OS's. Certain circumstances may warrant the need for someone to day work..maybe, but not all the time. Yes my chief's (cic and radio) run the shop however i do stand watch and still find the time to learn to take over the shop from my chief's; heck my OSC's are just there to ensure there is a smooth flow. Any competent 1st can run both shops and have seen it many times.

As far as land units...well coming from a sector where i stood comms watch for 2 years then went to the Sar controller for the last 2 yrs, life there was cake. One week we would end up working 50+ hours then the next week was like 30 or something...so it all balanced out. Of course not having the red letter holidays off with the wife was a pain....yet i just kept thinking about the time i did have off and any ill thoughts just went away.

OS1 H.

Jade,

I may have misunderstood your reaction but I want to clarify what I was trying to say there, what I am getting at is the "uppers" so to speak should not be involved in how we run the shop, the Chief should. Im right along side you there, I dont run radio but like you said it wouldnt be that difficult. I dont even mind the dayworking thing underway so much for us because to be honest with you, my guys dont really daywork unless I have something for them to do specifically, so they sit in the lounge and study on how to become a better OS or whatever the topic is for the day. Sector life is a fantastic break from being underway though, I dont care what anyone says. Like I said before, it should be a crime to have that much time off. When I was a SNOS I worked another job on the side almost full time and still had plenty of time off. It was a good time for money. But I have a wife and three kids so I do what I have to.

This clash between U/W and ashore OS really has to stop. You u/w people need to realise we've all been there. Is being a watchstander at a CC easier than U/W, Hell no. During Transfer Season and high optempo operations Ive spent more time on watch than I ever did u/w.

Now you had better get used to the idea of running set schedules as thats the route the CG is headed and is the best way to run watches. Flip-flopping days and nights should not be allowed, it kills your body. Not to mention the CG has released studies backing it up. At a minimum 1 month of days followed by 1 month of nights is the way a watch schedule should be set up.
We're lucky enough here to have enough people that like nights to were they always stand nights and everyone else stands days. In D17 we did the month to month and it worked great. Understand since I left somone went and F'ed it up again.
The point is we have to get out of the mind frame of "this is the way its always been done". There are better ways of doing things people, use your brains instead of blindly following everyone else.

Just so no-one misunderstands MY meaning of day working:

A "dayworker" is a person not on the watch schedlue.

"Ships work" is that stuff done by folks not currently on watch between 0800-1600 (and beyond).

EVERY OS afloat should be a watchstander until EVERY OS at that unit is 100% qualified IAW the position based competecy requirments, at all OS watches and ships work for their paygrade. The likelyhood of that happening for any serious amount of time is near nil. Even if that were the case, then everyone needs to be being pushed to get the next qual at the next higher pay grade. Studying for tests, etc, is for the most part a personal issue that should normally be done outside of ship work hours.

quote:

We're lucky enough here to have enough people that like nights to were they always stand nights and everyone else stands days

From a supervisors standpoint, that can be bad if you really meant "ALWAYS." Vampires need to see the light of day sometimes. Observations of supervisors and interaction with real human beings is a vitsal part of growth.

quote:

This sounds to me like an awful lot of crying from people who get to go home to their families every night (or day as the case may be). Yes you might have watch on a federal holiday or a saturday but you were still there for half the day. Better off then your underway counterparts.

I also remember taking tons of leave and working trop hours inport. Seems to me the command paid me back for all the hard work I was doing underway!! Underway life was hard, Command Center life is the same in a different way.