quote:

Originally posted by Tykon:
I was at camslant when the two car accidents took place, and I don’t believe the IT was a watch stander. The OS was. I had problems making it to work and home some days because the drive is so far. It’s a lot like camspac, kind of in the middle of no-where.

We can complain about this all we wont, it will never change, watch standers will continue to be over weight, tired and very unhealthy and no one will ever care. It will always be the watch standers fault.

What bothers me the most is that if all of the training, personnel inspections and mandatory medical/dental appointments that we have to go to were in the middle of the night, no day worker would ever show up.

The watch rotation is the only reason I do not want to do this any longer.

amen... 98% in concurrence... except for the last part... that's only a portion of why i don't want to do this any longer... but will because it pays well... not because it's rewarding

I wonder why I've never seen a treadmill in a command center. Just being able to walk for an hour has to be better then sitting on my a$$ all night

Not all midwatch standers are overweight... I do believe it is the watch standers responsibility to maintain the weight standards even if they have to stand 12 hour watches. If you cannot maintain the weight standards it is from your lack of initiative. The one thing that I have noticed after working 12 hour shifts of mids in a Comms center is that I am prone to more injury since I started this job. Ever since I started sitting around in the commcen doing nothing but talking on radios, answering phones, and looking at radars I have been more prone to injury once I actually do get out and do physical activities. Why? Because our bodies are slowly acclimating to being lethargic. The idea of a treadmill is awesome and would actually promote fitness on the job, but it wont happen because our job is to sit in the same room for 12 hours and be sloths who work as information relayers to help other people do their jobs. Choose your rate choose your fate describes us all perfectly.

BOTH (Group) Command Centers I have been in have had treadmills in them. Once the dust reached an inch think, we took them out. For those with a desire, jumping jacks, push ups, etc work just fine! If you don't believe me, I know a FSCM that I can introduce you too.

MC,
We asked if we could work out on watch just doing like you said - jumping jacks/pushups/sit ups, bring in dumb-bells to do curls. we were told "Not in my Command Center". And we were asking if we could do it on mids/weekends, not during the week/normal work day when day workers would walk in.

quote:

Originally posted by remy73:
MC,
We asked if we could work out on watch just doing like you said - jumping jacks/pushups/sit ups, bring in dumb-bells to do curls. we were told "Not in my Command Center". And we were asking if we could do it on mids/weekends, not during the week/normal work day when day workers would walk in.

A long time ago when i was at Camslant, a few of us would bring in Dumb-bells. While we were at our own respective stations sitting in our chairs...we would do curls and such. Of course this was done on the weekends and mid-watches where it was primarily slow. In addition, we asked our CWO and he had no problem with it.

Heck, im not going to blow smoke up anyones rear...It is hard to stay awake and keep motivated during a mid-watch. Yet when i make the next pay-grade i will definetly allow for some push-up/sit-ups standard exercise while on mid-watches just to keep your blood flowing and mind awake.

It's also all about presentation when you bring it up to your Chief or Command. Always remember this; Go to your command with an issue and a solution. Never go to them with just an issue and expect them to find a solution. For one, that solution may not be the one you are looking for. Now you may have already done this. If so, then looks as if you may need to go through your chain of command and possibly route it through the Command Chief. Depending on who you have talked to already.

In regards to the Os that stood a midwatch and ended up killiing someone in a car accident. None of us know the whole circumstances behind it. I am not familier with the situation so one of my first questions would be...Did this OS get adequate rest/sleep during the day prior to going to a mid-watch?
I was a Cams. Yes i lived in Chesapeake near I-64. It was roughly 30 minutes to get to work. Yet I chose to live where i did even though there are houses and such much closer. I also ensured i slept during the day prior to going to my mid-watch. Now im not an angel or anything and there were those days that i wanted to do something during the day knowing i had to be up all night working...so yes i was tired but again I chose to do that. So blame cannot be put on the schedule maker.

Will the policy ever change? Maybe, maybe not.
We used to stand a 24 hr Sar controller watch at groups...that policy got changed so there may be hope in the future.

OS1 H.

quote:

For one, that solution may not be the one you are looking for. Now you may have already done this.

I'll give a for instance on this, just becuase I still chuckle a little bit. At the last Command Center I was running, my watchstanders noted that a new message came out telling commands they needed to provide a certain amount of time, during the 'workday' for people to work out. The watchstanders (a mixture of JOs and enlisted) pretty muched dropped this on my desk and gave me their opinion that I needed to make this happen. I did! I increased all of the watch lengths by 1 & 1/2 hours and designated the first 90 minutes as 'Command Sponsored Voluntary Workout time.' You may find this hard to believe, but they found other solutions and retracted their 'demmand' that the Command find the time.

quote:

Originally posted by Mightyz90_93:

quote:

For one, that solution may not be the one you are looking for. Now you may have already done this.

I'll give a for instance on this, just becuase I still chuckle a little bit. At the last Command Center I was running, my watchstanders noted that a new message came out telling commands they needed to provide a certain amount of time, during the 'workday' for people to work out. The watchstanders (a mixture of JOs and enlisted) pretty muched dropped this on my desk and gave me their opinion that I needed to make this happen. I did! I increased all of the watch lengths by 1 & 1/2 hours and designated the first 90 minutes as 'Command Sponsored Voluntary Workout time.' You may find this hard to believe, but they found other solutions and retracted their 'demmand' that the Command find the time.

Now thats pretty good MC.
The old addage " You give them an inch and they will take a mile" ...applies both up and down the chain.

Master Chief,

Althought I can't complain about the subject of what took place at your command, I would like to state that in the Manual it states that 12 hour watches are a last resort. So making the work out period before a 12 hour watch.... I don't agree with that. Once again, it's your shop and you can run it how you want. What else I read in the manual is that 96's can be giving during special circumstances.... sooooo in my opionion, a last resort watch schedule should be able to grant 96's. To that I add, if you stand 12 hour watches and deserve 96's..... then you could hold your watch standers to the weight standards. If someone happens to fail their weight in, then hold nothing back. I know some of our people complain about not having time off to work out like their supposed to. Then when they fail their weight in, the don't want to follow the weight program work outs, like their supposed to. I can't come in and work out mon wed friday like eveyone else on the program because I stand mid watches is usuall the excuse. I always think it's good to give someone the inch (of rope) as in you get 96's cause you deserve them, then when they take the mile (of rope) and fail their weight in, they have no excuse, slam them to the wall.

Everyone I know LOVES this saying:

Choose your rate, choose your fate

Yup, and that's what you should say when people start complaining about your watch standers getting 96's.

Someone please cite the para that allows 96s?

(By the way- the story above applied to both 8 and 12 hour watchstanders. I just mentioned the more dramtic affect on the 12s)

quote:

Originally posted by sillybeep:
Yup, and that's what you should say when people start complaining about your watch standers getting 96's.

I absolutely agree. They just took our 96's away here.

Folks:
PERSMAN 7.B.2.b "....Regular liberty periods shall not exceed three days in length, except in the case of public holiday weekends and public holiday periods specifically extended by the President.."

7.B.2.c, "Special liberty periods of three or four days may be granted on special occasions or in special circumstances, such as:

1. Compensation for significant periods of unusually extensive working hours."

would not apply to a NORMAL watch rotation. For those that might argue 'four straight twelves surely meet that,' I might agree, but the solution is not to schedule four straight twelves.

7.B.2.c. Special Liberty
Special liberty periods of three or four days may be granted on special occasions or in
special circumstances, such as:
1. Compensation for significant periods of unusually extensive working hours.
2. Compensation to members on board ship in overhaul away from homeport.
3. Compensation for duty in an isolated location where normal liberty is inadequate.
(Note: This does not apply to units for which compensatory absence is authorized.)
4. As special recognition for exceptional performance, as determined by the
commanding officer.
5. As a traffic safety measure on long weekends or to avoid peak traffic periods.

looks like we were posting at the same time. You see I didn't include para 2-5 as NOONE could argue they apply.

Again - even para 1 doesn't apply to a regular watch rotation. MAYBE if there was a shortage of people and an extended P/S (like for a week or more), but not as part of a ROUTINE or NORMAL Schedule.

I think the main issue is that they don't separate day workers and watch standers. I believe that shift work, no lunch breaks, extended hours due to cases, 36 or 48 hours of work in 4 days, etc, is an absolute valid reason for 96's. I'm not even saying specifically ALWAYS 96's, but throw in one a month, or a couple of 96's over a 3 month period. That's certainly deserved.

I've been a day worker and a watch stander and trust me, I much prefer standing watch, but when the day workers get special liberty from Thanksgiving to New Years - the watchstanders should be taken into account. A lot of units wouldn't even need to exist if it weren't for the watch standers.

Again - scheduling a person for 4 straight 12's is absurd in most cases. A lot of times it is done to justify 96s. On special circumstances, yes they can be waranted.

quote:

PERSMAN 7.B.2.b "....Regular liberty periods shall not exceed three days in length, except in the case of public holiday weekends and public holiday periods specifically extended by the President.."

Watch standers are never in the situation to enjoy the public holiday weekends and public holiday periods specifically extended by the President. Sometimes 4 days on is required due to ops pending, leave, etc as you know. I know that 96's as a norm is against the Regular Liberty policy, but obviously can be utilized for special liberty. Since a lot of watch standers cannot have off Xmas, Turkey Day, Veterans Day, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Martin Luther King Jr Day, New Year's Day, Presidents Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, I think 96's are definitely warranted. Of course, that's just my opinion.

I havent chimed in for awhile but given the circumstances of this conversation I feel it may be warranted.

My goal when I came in was to have my own Command Center someday. When it happens you bet as a Cheif I will try my best to make the 8 hour watch happen. Even as a first I may have an impact if we are on the same page. Someone mentioned its all in the proposal and I for one agree. The problem is if your a Second or a Third class getting all the Seconds and Thirds together to complain about this and that and bringing out manuals and pointing fingers and comparing your not going to get anywhere. Im on a cutter that has dayworking for OS`s underway, thats obsurd and I made my case to my Command and it got shot down. There is a cutter that ties up next to us that doesnt have dayworking for anyone underway, their Chiefs run the shop and thats the way it should be. That being said it brings me to my next point. How you approach the subject is the key, and of course whether or not your Senior Leaders care, if your a third you should take it to your second, the second should take it to the first and the first if he/she is a good one will talk amongst his or her peers to figure out a way to approach the Command about it and it should work for you.

At my last Sector I was a SAR Controller the last two years there and we worked one 12 hour day and then one 12 hour night then three days off. Everyone had so much time off they didnt care about what they were standing. Know one ever had any issues with the type of watch we were standing. Now that I am on a boat if I hear someone from land complaining about their schedule I hope they have a good explanation to go behind it, unless they want to go down south for two months away from home.

Some may not like that mode of thinking but I get that mentality from the many rates I see on my cutter busting their butts day in and day out while my shop and I sit on ours up in CIC or in Radio making sure we can get a hold of CAMS or putting together a brief which we all know is sooooo tough.

It twists me the wrong way when people say Choose your rate, Choose your fate because when we are on land its normally us as OS`s saying that to other people who would love to stand the kind of duty we do.

It really is a crime the amount of time we get off on land. Be more appreciative. Couldnt believe it when I first became an OS and went to a Sector.

Thats my two sense, dont spend it all in one place.

OS1 S

By the way Master Chief,