Is there anything anywhere within the next 10 years (other than whatever else we come up with) that could compete with the F22 Raptor? I have seen the european Hurricane and it doesn't even compare. They say that its the best dog fighter but is there dogfighting anymore. What good is a good dogfight when you can target and engage the hurricane before it can even see you on its radar? I believe the stealth capability and the supersonic cruising capability puts it miles ahead of anything. I do believe that in any future war with a conventional army we would gain aerial supremacy right away without a problem.

What do you think?

The F-22 is the dominant fighter for the near future. The only problem is there are not many of them. There is only funding for less than 200 of them.

At this time there is only one possible aircaft that could challange teh F22, that is the F35. IT will not enter service until around 2012. The Russians are working on a couple of stealth aircraft, but they do not have the technology to meet either the Raptor or the JSF.

The Russians are about a generation behind the US in fighter technology. Europe is closing teh gap but we still have the edge overall.

Remeber history, and think about the F-4 vs the Mig 21. We needed dogfighting then after we came up with missile will solve everthing attitude. That said the F-22 is a very good dogfighter with a cannon and vectored thrust should it come to that.

We did had a dogfighter in Vietman, the F8. But it was put aside in favor of the F4. The F8 had the highest kill to loss ratio of any US fighter in Vietnam.

I believe we did learn our lesson from the F4.

Before I post, I must disclose that I work for the company that builds both the F-22 and the F-35. And yes, it is pretty cool, even if I do not work on those programs.

The three areas that will matter in a fighter for the forseeable future are:

Vectored thrust systems. Planes with it, and the pilots that know how to use it, will beat non-vectored thrust aircraft every time in a dogfight or in avoiding missiles.

Targeting. If you cannot lock on, you will die when the other guy does lock on. The F-22 showed that at the latest Red Flag exercise, where one F-22 took out an entire group of F-15s, without a single lock on from the F-15s. This has happened more than once, and with RAF pilots as well, who described it as "flippin frustrating to be able to see the F-22 and do nothing more than wave at it"

Support. The aircraft that wins will have the best support systems, upgrades, computers and weapons upgrades. One such system is a "missile carrier" aircraft, that can launch an air to air missile, that is controlled by either a F-22 or AWACS for initial flight, and transferred to the F-22 for final targeting. It extends the weapon capability of an single F-22 from what it could carry by a factor of more than 10.

So, thanks to our great engineers, program managers and the courage of the Air Force procurement leaders to insist on nothing less than the best, we have the best fighter aircraft in the world for the forseeable future with the F-22 and F-35.

quote:

Originally posted by WyattT:
They say that its the best dog fighter but is there dogfighting anymore. What good is a good dogfight when you can target and engage the hurricane before it can even see you on its radar? What do you think?

As long as comabatants can put planes in the air there will be a need to be able to shoot them down. And as long as enemy forces can use relatively cheap SAMs to deny us the ability to insert troops by air, we will need to develop ways to take out those SAM sites, whether by HARM, ATACMS or other long-range artillery, cruise missile, or what have you. The F-15 is a bada$$ bird, no doubt about that, but it is a 35 year old bird, and aerospace technology has come a LONG way since 1972. So there is definitely a place for the advanced fighters, and if there are only a couple of hundred of them being built - well, 'quality over quantity' seems to apply here...

Oh, and one of the reasons for the low numbers of F-22s being produced is that much of the same technology is being used in the much cheaper F-35 JSF. I can picture missions using a vanguard of F-22s to take out active defenses such as enemy fighters and SAM sites, followed by F-35s in ground support and additional antiair suppression roles.

quote:

Originally posted by TXARNG_E7_Medic:
Oh, and one of the reasons for the low numbers of F-22s being produced is that much of the same technology is being used in the much cheaper F-35 JSF. I can picture missions using a vanguard of F-22s to take out active defenses such as enemy fighters and SAM sites, followed by F-35s in ground support and additional antiair suppression roles.

That is the plan. Just like the F-117 or the B2 goes in and takes out the front tine elements today. Then when there is a hole the F15's or F/A18's come in and smash the rest.

Both planes will continue to make our military rulers of the sky.

I might also add my company makes parts for the F-35 and does some more with the F22. I would love to be involved in the final assembly.

F22 Discussion mates
I was privileged to be a part of the EMD phase of the F22, saw the first flight and on to the deploywment to the desert.
With the 22, the 35 and the F16, the threats posed now and into the future have no chance.
As to deployments, and use, add into the mix the Boeing F18, AWACS, F10s and the mothley aircraft the Leathernecks use and the end is foreseen.
end

Yea, the F22 is one hell of an aircraft. I've seen them in person, and they are simply stunning. My only concern is that a saturation of cheap aerial drones armed with lasers can pose a serious threat. I know this sounds ridiculous, even comical, but the technology exists, and for the cost of 1 Raptor, a military can get over 50 of these drones. One F22 can't shoot down all 50 drones, and all it takes is one drone to make the exchange "cost effective."

quote:

Originally posted by chopperftw:
Yea, the F22 is one hell of an aircraft. I've seen them in person, and they are simply stunning. My only concern is that a saturation of cheap aerial drones armed with lasers can pose a serious threat. I know this sounds ridiculous, even comical, but the technology exists, and for the cost of 1 Raptor, a military can get over 50 of these drones. One F22 can't shoot down all 50 drones, and all it takes is one drone to make the exchange "cost effective."

Good point...
The 22 was designed to kill opposing and similar aircraft. The UAV technology is coming on strong. Add stealth to the UAV and the problem is really strong.
Also, the UAV has no pilot to lose.
Boeing makes the latest UAV and parts of the 22, so the R and D folks have to come up with a means of dealing with this new technology.
Right off, I dont see a solution.
end

quote:

Originally posted by dwgerard:
Before I post, I must disclose that I work for the company that builds both the F-22 and the F-35. And yes, it is pretty cool, even if I do not work on those programs.

The three areas that will matter in a fighter for the forseeable future are:

Vectored thrust systems. Planes with it, and the pilots that know how to use it, will beat non-vectored thrust aircraft every time in a dogfight or in avoiding missiles.

Targeting. If you cannot lock on, you will die when the other guy does lock on. The F-22 showed that at the latest Red Flag exercise, where one F-22 took out an entire group of F-15s, without a single lock on from the F-15s. This has happened more than once, and with RAF pilots as well, who described it as "flippin frustrating to be able to see the F-22 and do nothing more than wave at it"

Support. The aircraft that wins will have the best support systems, upgrades, computers and weapons upgrades. One such system is a "missile carrier" aircraft, that can launch an air to air missile, that is controlled by either a F-22 or AWACS for initial flight, and transferred to the F-22 for final targeting. It extends the weapon capability of an single F-22 from what it could carry by a factor of more than 10.

So, thanks to our great engineers, program managers and the courage of the Air Force procurement leaders to insist on nothing less than the best, we have the best fighter aircraft in the world for the forseeable future with the F-22 and F-35.

What is:"Planes
with it",mean?

quote:

Originally posted by TennSlim:

quote:

Originally posted by chopperftw:
Yea, the F22 is one hell of an aircraft. I've seen them in person, and they are simply stunning. My only concern is that a saturation of cheap aerial drones armed with lasers can pose a serious threat. I know this sounds ridiculous, even comical, but the technology exists, and for the cost of 1 Raptor, a military can get over 50 of these drones. One F22 can't shoot down all 50 drones, and all it takes is one drone to make the exchange "cost effective."

Good point...
The 22 was designed to kill opposing and similar aircraft. The UAV technology is coming on strong. Add stealth to the UAV and the problem is really strong.
Also, the UAV has no pilot to lose.
Boeing makes the latest UAV and parts of the 22, so the R and D folks have to come up with a means of dealing with this new technology.
Right off, I dont see a solution.
end

Drones and UAVs are vulnerable to being jammed or signal loss if their satellite relay is taken out of action. The F-22 still has a live pilot sitting in the cockpit in order to carry out its mission.

quote:

Originally posted by dwgerard:
Before I post, I must disclose that I work for the company that builds both the F-22 and the F-35.

No you are not obliged to disclose that; in fact it is downright stupid to do so! You've now just put a great big red flag over your account that says: "Hey I've got some level of access to an advanced military program! Are there any interested foreign intelligence collectors around on this unsecure open website?"

People like you leak bits of info that the enemy can put together. People like you get our troops killed. Well done!

quote:

Originally posted by fargodakota:
I might also add my company makes parts for the F-35 and does some more with the F22.

quote:

Originally posted by TennSlim:
I was privileged to be a part of the EMD phase of the F22, saw the first flight and on to the deploywment to the desert.

Oh great, more fools! Surely you have a restricted network where you can brag about your jobs to your heart's content without advertising yourselves to the world? Can you keep track of the people accessing this website?

Every bit of info you give out can be gathered and put together to form an intelligence picture. Are you really that happy to freely provide even a snippet of information to the enemy of the future?

reccejet
You are absolutely correct, NO MORE brags on previous jobs. The urge to brag and reveal MUST be curbed in todays world.
Apologies to all.
end

Hello all.

I was watching a show on the discovery channel, Top Ten I think, and an English defense expert, who's name escapes me, said that " The only problem with stealth is that is cost so much and the counter to it are cheap." (this is a little vague, sorry)

Is this true? I always thought that our stealth aircraft where very hard to defeat. If it is true what are the counters to stealth.

quote:

Originally posted by RecceJet:

quote:

Originally posted by dwgerard:
Before I post, I must disclose that I work for the company that builds both the F-22 and the F-35.

No you are not obliged to disclose that; in fact it is downright stupid to do so! You've now just put a great big red flag over your account that says: "Hey I've got some level of access to an advanced military program! Are there any interested foreign intelligence collectors around on this unsecure open website?"

People like you leak bits of info that the enemy can put together. People like you get our troops killed. Well done!

quote:

Originally posted by fargodakota:
I might also add my company makes parts for the F-35 and does some more with the F22.

quote:

Originally posted by TennSlim:
I was privileged to be a part of the EMD phase of the F22, saw the first flight and on to the deploywment to the desert.

Oh great, more fools! Surely you have a restricted network where you can brag about your jobs to your heart's content without advertising yourselves to the world? Can you keep track of the people accessing this website?

Every bit of info you give out can be gathered and put together to form an intelligence picture. Are you really that happy to freely provide even a snippet of information to the enemy of the future?

LOL, telling who I work for is not a BFD, any more so than people saying they work for the Marines, Navy, or Civil Service. All they have to do if they want to know who works for who with my company is look up the address in the phone book and then look at the license plates that park in the parking lot. Anyone with an insurance license can look up the address and owner of the vehicle, and voila, they can send junk mail!

If you want to call someone a fool, you had better check six as there is a mirror right behind it the back of your head showing and that title above it. By the way, I used to work for law enforcement and I know exactly how easy it is to find out just about anything you want, so pizzing and moaning about who I work for is a whole lotta nada. So take your paranoia somewhere else and call them fools ya dink!

quote:

Originally posted by Blackmoon860:
Hello all.

I was watching a show on the discovery channel, Top Ten I think, and an English defense expert, who's name escapes me, said that " The only problem with stealth is that is cost so much and the counter to it are cheap." (this is a little vague, sorry)

Is this true? I always thought that our stealth aircraft where very hard to defeat. If it is true what are the counters to stealth.

My feelings exactly, counter it with what? Who has been able to do so? How many stealth aircraft have been shot down by enemy action? How many of those were intentional and how many were pure freakin' luck? It is very easy to put a microphone in front of some expert and spout drivel that sounds good, but exactly how many stealth aircraft have the English built lately? I do know of one RAF pilot who was involved in the last Red Flag, and he did not have any negative words about the F-22, and he flew against it I believe.

Yes there are planes that can compete, mig-29, su27.....This is the most expensive fighter ever, but the initiaal model washigher g's and more lethal. The production model has the F-15 ejection seat instead of the reclined "High G" seat that assisted it's selection. Other electronics or capabilities were also canceled.

Our current front line fighter, F-15C, lost to the INDIAN AF (Mig29/Su27) just a year or two ago on war games. The active duty got SPANKED and lost ALL engagments.

Stealth is good as is speed and manueverability. Some other aircraft have vectored thrust and or front canards. Russians have had helmet tacking for years(Mig29/su27 and others) Their jets have had IR tracking slaved to radar and TV. They track by heat then launch a weapon then turn radar on at last moment if needed. Radar stealth dont protect against that. I kid you not, over the shoulder weapons shots and off angle, (90 degrees of beam)weapon launches.

This also goes to their weapons tech also. We have learned the hard leasons the Mig 25 could shoot down and SR-71. There missles can attack at longer range (Some not all)

So stealth works against some sensors and Yes, the first to see is the first to shoot and kill, but you still need the manuverability to close in and get the angle in the F-22. meanwhile a Mig could launch at an angle before you get a good lock(or the missle is in the right AA to attack). The AF is finally looking into helmet sights now like used on the apach and cobras have had for decades.

The F-22 is a great AC and a leap in technology, but we still havent adapted old technology that would increase lethality.