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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Future War Who will defeat the USA eventually?|
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DITTO |
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whats that supposed to mean.
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That sounded just like Kevin Costner in "The Postman". Kinda brings a tear to the eye. |
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Perfectly said. Watch out for the insane liberals. |
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Member |
Our "empire" is not about land and military conquest, its about economy. We are currently outsourcing all our manufacturing and tech jobs to India and China as fast as we can, which will lead to our demise. China in particular, will grow in economic and manufacturing strength. In 50 years, their economy and manufacturing capability will dwarf the US. That's when our empire will end. When China can spend 1% of its GDP on military, and spend more than the US military budget, we'll be heading downhill. China won't have to fire a shot. We'll become a regional power like England, like cubsrock stated.
How did we win WW2 and become a superpower? By better soldiers? technical superiority? power of democracy and ideals of freedom? That's pretty, but bullshit. We won WW2 by out-manufacturing the **** out of every other country on earth. Germans and Japanese started with better weapons, and some might say the Germans ended the war with better weapons. We simply smoked them on building quantities of weapons. Same way we won the cold war. We produced so much, the Russians went broke trying to keep up. As China continues to develop manufacturing capability, and we willingly give it away, in 50 years they would win the war of weapons production. I'm assuming of course that nukes would be too horrible to come out. Now we outsource simple products, but the technology that China builds for us is getting more and more developed. We are now outsourcing all our programmers... soon we will outsource engineering... then research? Its already happening. We think we'll always be two steps ahead, but I don't believe this. China will develop millions of engineers producing millions of products, that will outstrip our economy and military. We are not only supporting this, we are accelerating it. Heaven help us if India and China combine forces. |
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Highly Experienced Member |
WE WILL KILL OURSELFS IF WE DON,T BECOME ONE U.S.A NOT TWO THERE IS NO RED OR BLUE WE OUR RED WHITE AN BLUE THAT WHAT I FOUGHT FOR
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New Member |
Actually, don't believe that defeat is the proper word for what will get us in the long run so much as failure to understand that better than isn't at all the same thing as adequate, unless one is grading on the curve, that is.
Viewed from the perspective of overall performance, the US has occasionally achieved a score as high as 43% with the current performance level standing at roughly 34% and dropping. Still better than its nearest rival, which has rarely bettered 28%, but hardly something to stand up and cheer about. A few of my criteria are criminal recidivism (over 60%. Since at least 20% would likely not have repeated even without jail, this yields an actual score of less than 20%), adequacy of legal structure in correcting problems (the handling, if that's the word for it of the executive frauds, child custody cases, and things like the $6,500,00 judgement against MacDonalds are a very few of the rather large stack of "A* ****s", 1 of which wipes out 1000 of the mostly non present "At-a-boys", according to the proverb, educational capability (far too many students scoring far too low on even basic reading skills), citizen initiative (An interesting area, this. All sorts of folk, including those whose life work as been the disemination of the concept that under no circumstances should the citizen ever act in an unapproved way, remember that fine old phrase, "Don't take the law into your own hands!"? will get all worked up because everyone just stood around and let some horrible thing happen to someone. Sorry folks, but intervening in such matters is to "Take the law into one's own hands", and may well result in arrest and jail time plus a lawsuit. (And another downcheck for the overall US percentage in the citizen initiative area.) Then there is the matter of military functionality, which is pathetic. In the recent Iraqi campaign, the Iraqis managed to score at least twice on the grand tactical level. The command structure had begun with a violation of the Napoleonic principle that one bad general was preferable to two good ones, and since none of the people in charge were particularly good, or even adequate, and still aren't, for that matter, the result was predictable. Would also have helped if Saddam Hussein had not been so much better a strategist than his opposition, which appears to have problems spelling the word, let alone defining it. Part of the problem in this area is that the actual nature of the difference between tactics and strategy is pretty clearly not understood by the people in charge. Among the politicians, the reason is that they are so accustomed to putting a 'spin' on things that they have lost whatever sight they may once have had of the concept of a standard being a basis for measurement. Among the generals, promotion is at least as much a matter of saying what the the politicians want to hear, as opposed to telling them what they need to know, as it is of actually having some sort of a clue as to how to use their forces properly. No general can be expected to keep all his men alive, that isn't his job. Any general who spends more lives than required to win does not deserve his position. Some wins are more dubious than others. At any rate, to return to the matter of the overall performance score, you will see that I am basing my evaluation on a variety of factors, actually, several hundred of them, in terms of what appears to be necessary for success in the long term. One consideration I would mention is the equation that defines the stress level on the governors of a society, which is the product of the following; Population * Factions ! * Technology level ! * Percentage of tightness of control the government is attempting * percentage of acceptance of the governmental ideology all this divided by the number of those who can make decisions affecting 10% (roughly) or more of the population * 86400 86400 is the number of seconds in a 24 hour day, if anyone is wondering. (The Cheerful Charley assumption here is that it will only take 1 second to evaluate each item brought to the attention of a governing person. Technology level is defined in 12 levels on the basis of definition, repeatability, transmission speed and storage. Tech level 0 would consist of things like the scent marking a dog leaves on a tree while tech level 10 would be analog telecommunications, teletype and computer punch cards. To offer two examples. Factions refers to things such as political parties, labor unions, business associations, religious affiliations, etc. The perception of this will be somewhat dependent on how tightly the government is trying to control things. The tighter the attempted control, the more factions will be perceived. Obviously, any government which gets itself into such a state that the stress level approaches unity is heading for trouble. Any government that exceeds unity is in the deep kim-chee as the saying goes, and the nation it is supposedly governing is in serious trouble. What happened to the Soviets is a classic recent, horrible example of this. Of course, their pre-income tax of somewhere between 85 and 93 percent didn't help much either. Was a real morale buster. Pre-income tax? It is my understanding that in the worker's paradise it was (1) Illegal to be unemployed and (2) The government was the sole legal employer. (3) The 'Sole Legal Employer' i.e., the government set the wages, which, on the basis of various items that came to my attention over the years, appear to have averaged out at perhaps 11% of what the job would have paid anywhere else. This, folks, is a pre-income tax at work. Has several obvious effects. Pretty hard to accumulate capital under such a system, and What sort of morale are the people doing the work apt to have after years of being told by their boss that they are worthless? Because the low pay says exactly that, day in, day out. Which brings me to one of our ongoing problems, the income tax, and, for that matter, taxes in general. Would point out that interesting phrase in the Declaration of Independence "deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed" Am not sure how consent can be interpreted as meaning "aquiesence at gunpoint" but that is the effect of taxation as a principle. Yeah, sure, I am quite certain all sorts of legalities, none of which had even been proposed when the bleeding was going on in the Revolutionary War, can be quoted to justify this, but I sort of doubt that those popping away at the British had this sort of thing in mind. Thing is, you can have citizens, or you can, in the long run, have taxpayers and/or slaves. And history makes it rather clear that too few of the first tends to lead to none at all of the second. Otherwise known as the Roman Empire gone out of business, now under dismemberment by the Ostrogoths, Huns, Goths, Vandals and assorted others with a grudge syndrome. Putting it simply, our house is not in order. |
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New Member |
i am not here to criticize anyone's country. but moreless just wanted to share my views on this interesting topic.i realise most of u, who have contributed on this topic are saying what u think and not reality. for those of us who believe in god will know that no country in the world will defeat the united states. the bible has clearly explained it self in daniel and revelations about the destruction of the united states. the united states will be destroyed by god in the second coming.don't mine all the talk about china will be the next superpower this is rubbish by people who are sicking popularity. america has done so much for the world and still some of their friends are trying to undermind them. i must say i am proud as a soon to be british royal marine commando who will serve next to americans soldiers all over the world to defend our homeland,our democracy,our alies and a force for good around the world.i am sorry that america will be the fist to fal in the second coming, but it is god's word and not mine.for more about america's defeat listen to http://www.3abn.org it is an dventist station bring the true word of god to us.
NB. if it ever come to the day amrecia and britian will face each other in arms we will not defeat them but surely we will not be defeated. we are friends and we will not see that day if it ever comes. |
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On warning DaveBarker  |
I think that America will not collapse for a long time, if at all. Throughout history many countries have had their positions as the worlds superpower, England, Italy, France, Greece, Germany, Japan etc, and in every single instance these countries tryed to literally conquer the world. Each time one of these countries had their chance on top, they've tryed to pillage the world and put it under their command. Germany and the Nazis, Italy and the Roman Empire, France and Napoleon, all tryed to dominate everything. America however, while being in perhapes the best position in history to conquer the world, has not expanded its territory through invasion once since taking its position as a super power in 1945. After defeating Germany and Japan in 4 years of war, America rebuilt these two ruined countries into thriving modern states. Russia, the other super power of the day held onto its claim in Germany for nearly 50 years. Since taking its position as #1 America has focused on making improvemtns within its own borders. Civil rights, enviormentalism, charity, and numerous other things. While other super powers throughout history have looked to conquering other lands to improve themselves America has looked at itself. I believe that one of the main reasons all of these other empires failed is because they refused to look at their own faults. In nearly any debate, be it political, social, or economic, Americans are usually the first to critize themselves. No one in Rome would have dared to critize the government and certainly not in Nazis Germany. Thats what makes America unique and thats what will make it last.
The reason America has been able to critque itself is largely because it is made of people from all these former "imperialistic" countries. Its as if the small number of people from these countries realized what was wrong and immigrated to America to do it the right way. The international community gives America so much Flak because it is easier for them to sit on their asses and critize instead of looking in at themselves and their own problems. America is the new kid in town with the new ideals and ways of doing things. All these other countries have had their chances and have blown it, now there jealous of us and will do anything to stop us from doing what they couldn't. Don't get me wrong, America has its many faults, but at its core it is unique and good. Where other Super Powers were based on pillaging the weak and raping other land, America is based on justice, freedom, and improvement at its core. Although America does by all means like to be successful,it does it by making thoose around it successful, not by stealing from them. When America moves into a foriegn country it does not enslave its people and destroy their land and cultural, it employees its people builds on the land and blends its culture into others. This is another thing that will ensure America lasts forever. No longer is America one people, one country, or one idea, it is many people, numerous ideals, spread across hundreds of countries. A popular argument for Americans trying to explain how important they are, is one in which they say that when America collapses the world will collapse becuase of America's role in the international economy. This is marginally correct.But America's economic role is only superfical in comparison to its many other roles. America is the world, the world is America, when America dies the world will die. The land between Canada and Mexico and that government that rules it may and probaly will be gone in the future, but America will not be dead then. America, American, Americans, has become so imbedded and important to the world that the only way to extinguish America completel would be to destroy the world itself. Very nicely said!!  |
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I don't recall specifically reading the "United States" anywhere in the bible. Anything else is subject to interpretation. I don't really know how to plan for God destroying the U.S. Should I not bother staining the deck this year? How soon are we talking? I have some vacation time to use up. |
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Jeez man, I couldn't agree more! We DID NOT "win" the Cold War by out-manufacturing the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union went into Afghanistan and went broke because of it, because their economy wasn't strong enough in the first place. Why do you think the M1 Abrams tank was created? Because of the massive, massive numbers of Soviet and Warsaw Pact tanks that outnumbered the United States and all of Western Europe. So a tank was needed that could kill about four Soviet/Warsaaw Pact tanks for every one Abrams. Same with the AH-64 Apache helicopter. a tank hunter, to make up for the lack of numbers. SOVIET TANK STRATEGY WAS TO OVERWHELM THE ENEMY WITH VAST NUMBERS OF WEAPONS AND TROOPS; THAT IS NOT U.S. STRATEGY. And we did NOT win WWII solely by out-manufacturing everyone either. The United States did develop some superior weapons than Germany or Japan (like the P-51 Mustang). The United States outsources programming jobs that require maintenance. The actual development of software is not outsourced. And engineering is not outsourced. The major engineering of U.S. aircraft, naval ships, rifles, computers, etc....all designed and built by the United States. Major advanced computer systems are not permitted to be exported because another country could use them against the U.S. Only small parts are designed by other countries, such as the main gun on the Abrams tank, a good deal of the guns in the U.S. military, etc....but those guns are MANUFACTURED in the United States. The electronics systems of our fighter aircraft, the engines, our tanks, ships, etc....all U.S. built. We have our own automotive corporations, computer corporations, etc....this country has an incredibly strong infrastructure, which is what allows us to manufacture such advanced weaponry. Look at how skeptical NASA was of China going into space. You really think that kind of advacned engineering stuff will fall to the Chinese? No way. The military and government will not allow it. You talk about the manufacturing leaving this country. You really think the U.S. couldn't raise up factories to manufacture massive amounts of weaponry if actually needed for a war? China will not surpass the United States for a long time. They have to equal us economically, which will be a while, and then militarily and technologically. They have no experience operating a modern navy, or a modern army even. England did not "simply" become a regional power. they were a world empire that lossed their colonies, then got kind of thrashed after WWII. The United States is different. And the government and military are not stupid. They do not want to give up their superiority (military-wise) to other countries. They take great care to make sure that the important engienering and research are all done in the U.S., by the U.S. |
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u must understand the bible so u could understand the last days. watch 3abn.org or visit a pastor who is willing to tell the truth about god the way it is written,then u will understand the destruction of your country.all the wars and the natural disasters that u are seeing happening in the world today is prophersize in the bible. let me give u a little of wat i know. the bible talks about the first beast which is rome where church and state was one.it talks about the second beast with the seperation of church and state which is america. it also said that the second beast gave power to the fist beast and its wounds was healed.the wounds there is the fall of the roman empire. now the bible is stongly against the unification of church and state.to make it clear to u because it seems that u are not a believer i will put it this way.rome is the religious power in the world and america is the political power in the world. in the last days rome will make a rule that anybody who donot worship on sunday will be persicuted because they have (rome) change the sabbath from saterday to sunday. and with that rule rome will ask america with its political might to enforce that law.we as a people now must decide on who's side are we, weather we are on god's side or the devils.now when god has had enough he will come to shield his people and destory the persicuters.to make it even more clearer america has stand for the seperation of state and church from seens it grew as a nation.but as the bible put the two horns on the second beast head which stand for the seperation of church and state will form one which is the unification of the two. now that unification has started in america. u will ask me how and i will tell u look at the 2004 presidental elections.bush got most of his votes base on religious believes.the unification of church and state is dengerous because laws will be influence by the churches and thats when the persicution starts. i am sorry to say but america is the beast in prophercy it is fulling the unfication of church and state. check an adventist pastor and he will explain it better for u.trust the bible it is the word of god. |
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| <Critter0712>
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Our Selves will do it thru stupidity>
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New Member |
The only country that wants to go to war with us is the European Union. China has no intentions of going to war with us (even though they hate us) knowing the heavy consequences. Neither does Russia. India is a powerful country as well but there is no way we would go to war with them anytime soon. The United States is excellent at deceiving it's rivals and playing sides. The EU, China, Russia, and India would kill each other off before we'd have to worry. If we'd lose it would only be because of poor political decisions as China, Russia, and the EU would gang bang the US. Even if that happened India would play our ally and we still might win.
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The E.U. wants to go to war with us, are you joking? They can't even agree on a constitution, there's no way in hell that they'd all agree to go to war against us. You're also wrong about China not going to war against us, they've been studying our tactics for years to try to figure out ways to defeat us, their new Kilo submarines were acquired with the express purpose of taking on our carriers, & the military's magazines have been talking about the impending war against the U.S. for a couple of years now. |
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Experienced Member |
The USA will probably become Balkinized and turn on itself eventually. Also, abortion and birth control in the USA and Europe is killing the west faster than any war possibly could.
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Good grief, please don't start with that nonsense. If that was the case, the U.S. population wouldn't continually keep growing the way it is. |
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You can't deny that birth rates in the West are on the decline, now whether that's from abortion/birth control or just people deciding that they want to have fewer kids than their parents did, I don't know. Immigration the last time I checked is why the U.S. population is still rising.
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The soviets never got out of war production mode after WWII, we did. Yes our superior weapons developed since then were designed for quality, not quantity. I totally agree with that point. But the soviets knew their weapons were crap compared to ours, and knew they had to build 5 or 10 to our 1. That's expensive, and that helped destroy their economy. It was when Reagan kick-started military development and production, that the soviets really spent themselves into doom. I don't believe Afganistan alone would have ended the Soviet Union. I didn't mean we won WWII solely by out-manufacturing everyone. We did have some superior weapons, (The P51 was a sweet plane) but we also had a lot of inferior weapons, at least at the start. Our Shermans were vastly inferior to the Tiger. Our torpedoes were vastly inferior to the Japs torpedoes. Our planes did not start the war at the same level as the Zeros and ME-109s. The examples are long. The point is, once the war started, we filled the seas with our ships, the air with our planes, the land with our tanks and Jeeps. And we had leftovers for England and Russia. I also agree that our weapons are not outsourced, I never said they were. But enough high technology is going outside to greatly accelerate the Chinese military development. And they make spying a top priority. They do have a tremendous came of catch up to play, which is why I said about 50 years. But once their economy triples or quadruples ours, they can outstrip our weapons development budget to catch up. I don't want the Chinese economy to outstrip ours. As for the US going into mass production mode in a future war, I'm not too sure future wars would last long enough to build up the factories. I sure hope our government isn't stupid enough to give away our lead. And I'd be fine with outsourcing all toaster and toy manufacturing in the country. But the line is fuzzy. All our electronics are now coming from China. Ships and Heavy industries are coming from China. I guess I would just like the government to give business some incentive to keep design and manufacturing in house. Its only the Chinese and Indians I see being united enough, large enough, and competing for world resources enough to risk large scale war with us. |
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Military.com Forums Hot Topics & Current Events Future War Who will defeat the USA eventually?
