Hey guys, right now I'm in the middle of a serious dilemma.

I'm getting myself in shape for the USN after I get out of college in the spring, but I'm still trying to decide whether or not to go enlisted or officer.

My family is pushing me towards OCS since I have a college degree and it pays better, but I don't think I'm a very strong candidate because I have an English double major in literature and writing (with a minor in political science) and I thought OCS preferred graduates with engineering, physics, and management degrees. Even though I have high grades, I don't have many extracirricular activities or demonstrated "leadership qualities" either...

My brother, who is USN enlisted, says that officers (ensigns) are not as well respected on the job as enlisted, because they don't really work for a living (are just paper-pushers) and haven't "earned it." He says that officers are shipped around arbitrarily every few months without regard to specialization, and that most of their work is administrative. He's a biased opinion, but he was very persuasive.

The only reason I would consider being an officer is the pay, and the possibility of naval flight school. But to be honest, I have a feeling I would be just as happy working on the flight deck as an aviation tech or in air control as I would be up in the air.

It's just hard, because I have a hunch my family feels like I'm wasting the money they spent on my college education...well, it's more than a hunch. My mother has asked me outright several times, "What about all that money we spent for you to get a degree? You're not even going to *try* to use it to get into OCS?"

How hard is it to get commissioned after enlistment? I think I would have a stronger application once I get some military background.

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Originally posted by 10713768:
My family is pushing me towards OCS since I have a college degree and it pays better, but I don't think I'm a very strong candidate because I have an English double major in literature and writing (with a minor in political science) and I thought OCS preferred graduates with engineering, physics, and management degrees. Even though I have high grades, I don't have many extracirricular activities or demonstrated "leadership qualities" either...

No harm in trying now. It won't be that long of a wait because the review applications pretty regularly. Sure they prefer technical degrees, but one of the best Nuke officers I ever knew had a BA in liberal arts.

They look at the whole individual, and you will be competing against active duty as well as civilians. Just get your package together and get it looking as best you can. Even if you don't get picked up initially and decide to enlist, you'll have the stuff together to put in another package later.

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My brother, who is USN enlisted, says that officers (ensigns) are not as well respected on the job as enlisted, because they don't really work for a living (are just paper-pushers) and haven't "earned it." He says that officers are shipped around arbitrarily every few months without regard to specialization, and that most of their work is administrative.

More of a level of knowledge thing, and the attitude of the JO (junior officer) involved. If a JO comes in humble and makes the effort to learn from those who know they have a pretty easy time and gain a lot of respect. Those that come in cocky, thinking they know it all, well.....they usually end up getting their @$$es handed to them and don't get any respect

On the same token a dirtbag first class who doesn't know anything gets no respect either.

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The only reason I would consider being an officer is the pay, and the possibility of naval flight school. But to be honest, I have a feeling I would be just as happy working on the flight deck as an aviation tech as I would be up in the air.

That's a decision you have to make, as far as what you want. Look into pilot, NFO, aircrew and flight related ratings to see what you want and what you may qualify for.

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It's just hard, because I have a hunch my family feels like I'm wasting the money they spent on my college education...well, it's more than a hunch. My mother has asked me outright several times, "What about all that money we spent for you to get a degree? You're not even going to *try* to use it to get into OCS?"

Your life, not hers. Do what YOU want. If it bugs her that much tell her you'll pay her back over time, like a student loan.

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How hard is it to get commissioned after enlistment? I think I would have a stronger application once I get some military background.

For OCS, exactly as hard as it is as a civilian. All the applicants go into the same pool. If you think you need time in to make a stronger package then do it, but remember that in order for enlisted time to help you need to be s*** hot. Like I said no harm in putting in the application now, and trying again later. With officer programs, sometimes just putting in multiple applications helps (took my husband 3 tries to get selected for STA-21, he just kept pluging and working his butt off to make his package better each year. Each previous year he submitted everyone was "sure" he would get picked up, and he wasn't. You never know)

The only issue with you expressing that you want to be an NFO if you do go officer is age. If you enlist first before going for OCS (nothing wrong with that if you truly want to be an enlisted Sailor and see if the officer thing if for you) you might not make the age cutoffs for flight school. People with enlisted service can get waivers for those limits, but just something to be aware of.

I'd suggest going to talk to both officer and enlisted recruiters and hash out what programs you think would be best for you. In the end, don't worry about what anyone else wants- it's your career.

Thanks a lot Catherine. That's some great advice. I'll go ahead and get my package together then, and decide from there. If I do decide to enlist instead of go civvie-to-officer, I'll always have it ready for later.

Officers have to learn there own set of jobs and learn to command/lead sailors. They want well rounded individuals and a well rounded team of leaders. If every OCS grad was a Engineering, Science or Business School grad, the Navy (and Army, etc) leadership would be very one dimensional. My electrical officer has a liberal arts degree, the personnel officer had a BS in Biology and so forth. Do you want to be a technician or a manager? I can say in the civilian world there is more opportunity for cross over in technical jobs, but the military is more formal on roles.

Your brother was either describing a Surface or a Sub ensign. There really is no such thing as an NFO ensign in the fleet. By the time you leave flight school, you're a LTJG (not that it would make a difference). In any event, the aviator types don't really deal with much more than flying and maybe some collateral duties until they're full Lieutenants. They also most definitely do NOT get shuffled around like surface/sub JO's. So, without actually refuting the accuracy of your brother's summary of whatever JO's he may have encountered, I'll just say it doesn't apply to NFO's. Of course... There's no guarantee you'll get to be an NFO, even if you do get into OCS. Keep that in the back of your mind. If you're not willing to do whatever the Navy decides it needs you to do, then don't even think about joining (as an officer or as enlisted). You may just find that there's no amount of money they could pay you to do what they expect you to do (and believe me, they really do try and throw ridiculous amounts of money at some skill sets because retention is so poor). Or, who knows, you may find you'd be willing to do it for free if you get a job you really like. Although so far I've only seen ships' Captains be willing to go that far... And they might have been lying to boost morale...

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They also most definitely do NOT get shuffled around like surface/sub JO's.

Usually every 6-9 months they are moved to a different division. Very similar to most surface/sub JOs. They have to learn all the moving parts

Well everyone pretty much gave you good advice.

Just don't go to one or the other because everyone pushed you and to go there and it "pays better." While "everyone" maybe well-meaning, it doesn't mean you'll be happy where they want you or that you'll perform well there.

Whether you come in as a boot officer or boot enlistee, you earn respect by the way you present yourself to others, knowing your job and how well you do it.

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Originally posted by AoiSonlee:
There really is no such thing as an NFO ensign in the fleet.

If there was he/she either 1) is still an O-1 because of admin errors or 2) they got busted!

At either rate, someone is going to ask questions because it's an oddity!

I guess it would theoretically be possible if they were able to start API immediately after commissioning and they had no delays through flight training. If you look at the training syllabus for an NFO it adds up to less than two years, so it's possible to make it through and be winged as an Ensign, but the inevitable waits in flight training seem to prohibit it.

My two cents:

Both prior-E and straight commissioned officers will be both good and bad.
We had a CHOP (supply officer) who was 12 years prior-E and was a big. . .lets just say weenie.
We had great Academy grads and some poor ones. We also had a prior-E Academy grad on the boat.
Neither route is SUPERIOR to the other.

Legitimate concerns:

1. Your personal maturity level. Enlisting is a little bit less of a commitment in some peoples opinion. You can do a four or five year tour cheesing out as a 3rd class who meets minimum requirements, if you decide you no longer want to make it a career.
There is a little more spotlight on an officer and I'm guessing there doesn't get to be as much cheesing out. On the pay scale fresh officers are being paid "around the same" as junior E-7's and E-6's. During your time at OCS you are actually paid as an E-5. This compensation indicates the level of work you should be doing.
Coming in enlisted is also a good start to get your foot in the door, build up some leadership experience, and make up for a lack of extra-curricular leadership activities by getting great evals and picking up some "officer" watchqualifications as an enlisted and taking on some good collateral duties.

2. Age. Age limits are always a legitimate concern. Each warfare community has its own age limits. Enlisted time served will get you a month for month waiver to the age limit for up to two years typically. So for example Surface Warfare age limit is: 29. A prior enlisted with at least two years of service can therefore become a SWO prior to age 31.
Nuke 27.5 waiverable to 29.5
Supply: 35
Aviator is NOT as strict as the nuke age limits but I don't remember the exact cut-off either.

Look up requirements for those programs you are interested in.

3. Waivers. There are less waivers accepted for officers. Going enlisted is one way around previous mistakes ASSUMING that you come clean about said mistakes AND that your enlisted record is stellar and that you have not relapsed into any of those dumb behaviors. So for example: an enlisted person with a drug waiver (in their service record) might have a better chance than a civilian needing a drug waiver. One of them has proved they are no longer "experimenting" or "addicted"

4. NOTE: Any benefits from enlisted time as far as being accepted are semi-bullhocky. The assumption is that QUALITY enlisted service will make up for low GPA's, lack of extra-curriculars, "weird" degrees, and other concerns. Key is the QUALITY comment. If a civilian applicant is better than an enlisted applicant "whole person" the board is going to take the civilian. Just being enlisted gives you NOTHING.
Because of enlisted leadership's priorities you are not competitive as an enlisted sailor at a lot of commands until you have WARFARE pins. Or are at least serving in a REAL FLEET capacity with REAL FLEET EVALS, with good marks.

The only last thought. . .maybe not as applicable to the OP's concern but others might care to know. . .is that the Navy has something calle LDO/CWO.
If you prefer to stay engrossed in your technical field Limited Duty Officers and Chief Warrant Officers serve in their enlisted specialties as officers. Neither of these require degrees but allegedly you need AT LEAST an Associates to be considered "competitive."
Of course LDO requires 8 years min of enlisted time (And E-6 with a "Pass" on the E-7 exam) and CWO requires 12 years (already E-7)

The only reason I mention these programs is because they are still experimenting with a flying Chief Warrant Officer program which might interest the OP a little more. That "pilot" program (pardon the pun) targets E-5's with 4 to 8 years of service. . .seems a lot like the Army's Helo warrants. Somebody else might know a lot more details about that test program and what the requirements are.

Pizzadude Here...

Simple Answer: Go to College, Graduate College, and Then Go OCS.

I had an AZ (Dont Get ME Started on People that CHOOSE THIS RATE!)...He was An E-2 with an Masters Degree in Business Administration from Cornell University. No Joke.

He was relegated to Washing Airplanes and Cleaning Up Hangar BirdS**t after being TOLD he should Join the Enlisted Navy...Eventually The Skipper will Notice You are Educated and Send you to OCS. (WRONG!!!)

I was Leaving Hawaii 2 years later And Airman "Cornell" was taking His E-4 exam for the 3rd time. (His Time was up and He went back to Arizona...He Never Became an Officer.)

Finish College and THEN Apply For OCS!!!

Pizzadude
Boston Mass.

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taking His E-4 exam for the 3rd time.

Might explain why he never became an officer.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll definitely take it into consideration.

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Originally posted by pizzadude:
Pizzadude Here...

Simple Answer: Go to College, Graduate College, and Then Go OCS.

I had an AZ (Dont Get ME Started on People that CHOOSE THIS RATE!)...He was An E-2 with an Masters Degree in Business Administration from Cornell University. No Joke.

He was relegated to Washing Airplanes and Cleaning Up Hangar BirdS**t after being TOLD he should Join the Enlisted Navy...Eventually The Skipper will Notice You are Educated and Send you to OCS. (WRONG!!!)

I was Leaving Hawaii 2 years later And Airman "Cornell" was taking His E-4 exam for the 3rd time. (His Time was up and He went back to Arizona...He Never Became an Officer.)

Finish College and THEN Apply For OCS!!!

Pizzadude
Boston Mass.

Airman "Cornell" probably would not have made the cut for OCS if he applied for it from the civilian world.

(Minus the advanced degree) was this Sailor Officer Material to you? Did he seem like he had the drive to lead sailors? From what you've written about this person, it don't look like he was officer material, even with the degree. (Did he get busted too? Don't the Navy let you in as an E-3 if you have your degree?) Did Airman Cornell do anything to get noticed (like show initiative)? Or did he just feel sorry for himself that he went enlisted?

Having a degree or an advanced one is just that: possession. How you apply yourself after earning it is what really counts and what will get you noticed.

I've said this before, I'll say it again, It's easy to say, "Got a degree? Become an officer!" Degree or not, becoming an officer means nothing if you lack the drive or don't have the right state of mind.

There are a whole bunch of people with degrees who enlist (and a lot who were enlisted already and got their degree while AD) and led sucessful enlistments whether they be four, eight or twenty years. It doesn't make them any less of a service member or educated person.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: SgtLtUSMC,

First Cornell's Security Clearance is going to get a little harder with over $40 Grand in College Loans. Also Supply Officer Quotas were a little tight in Drawdown Years. (2007-2008 NOW are Drawdown Years.)

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(Minus the advanced degree) was this Sailor Officer Material to you? Did he seem like he had the drive to lead sailors?

Brains: Always had Better Ideas than anyone I know, But NEVER Forced it down anyone's Throat.
Leadership: I mean People WANTED to Follow Him. No Threats, Foul Language, No Politics. This guy could Do Management Problems (aka Metrics)in his Head that the made the Master Chief do a double take, scrap plans, and rewrite with Cornell's suggestions. Hey If the Maint Officer thinks this guy is this good...

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Did Airman Cornell do anything to get noticed (like show initiative)?

AZAA was put in Coffee Mess for 45 TAD. He suggested a Sale on $6 2-year Old Flight Patches for $3 Bucks. (Sold out in one Week Flat.) Next a 5cent Price Hike in "Hi-volume" Coffee, Soda, and Candy Bars. The Profits Soared, and AA Cornell was "Noticed" with his First Navy Achievement Medal. Not Bad for 6mos Aboard???

Admin/Computer Skills made Leadership (Chiefs) look Bad. I mean the MCPON Today mentions Chiefs spent WAAAY Too Much Time spent Behind Computer Monitors. This guy was given a Laptop to Correct and then Teach the New Windows 3.0 Software, Spreadsheets, and this thing called Email. (Hey its 1994 and Pentiums are still years away.)

Now He is making enough Khakies look Inept. If it came down to a decision that people needed credible information. When the LPO was INFORMING you to your face that We are Way Too Busy to Be Your Personal Information Booth. GOT IT? 1 min later Cornell is quoting a maint Reference and handing you the NavAdmin Message...and Making LPO look like a pure DumbAzz in the process.

I figured enough times "He Outshined His Boss" that his Efforts were holding him back. He had the medals, knew his job, and but leadership just treated him like every other Junior like Sweeping a hangar deck and Repeatedly Washing Filthy Airplanes. This was truely a Jem in a sea of pogue 4.0 Sailors Too bad the 5.0 Early Promote Eval was still years away.

Now Joining the Enlisted side is gonna be a waste if you get stuck here. Also Knowing that People with Multi-Enlistments are not going to appreciate You trying to jump ahead of their Efforts.

Well written post pizza.

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Originally posted by pizzadude:
First Cornell's Security Clearance is going to get a little harder with over $40 Grand in College Loans. Also Supply Officer Quotas were a little tight in Drawdown Years. (2007-2008 NOW are Drawdown Years.)

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(Minus the advanced degree) was this Sailor Officer Material to you? Did he seem like he had the drive to lead sailors?

Brains: Always had Better Ideas than anyone I know, But NEVER Forced it down anyone's Throat.
Leadership: I mean People WANTED to Follow Him. No Threats, Foul Language, No Politics. This guy could Do Management Problems (aka Metrics)in his Head that the made the Master Chief do a double take, scrap plans, and rewrite with Cornell's suggestions. Hey If the Maint Officer thinks this guy is this good...

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Did Airman Cornell do anything to get noticed (like show initiative)?

AZAA was put in Coffee Mess for 45 TAD. He suggested a Sale on $6 2-year Old Flight Patches for $3 Bucks. (Sold out in one Week Flat.) Next a 5cent Price Hike in "Hi-volume" Coffee, Soda, and Candy Bars. The Profits Soared, and AA Cornell was "Noticed" with his First Navy Achievement Medal. Not Bad for 6mos Aboard???

Admin/Computer Skills made Leadership (Chiefs) look Bad. I mean the MCPON Today mentions Chiefs spent WAAAY Too Much Time spent Behind Computer Monitors. This guy was given a Laptop to Correct and then Teach the New Windows 3.0 Software, Spreadsheets, and this thing called Email. (Hey its 1994 and Pentiums are still years away.)

Now He is making enough Khakies look Inept. If it came down to a decision that people needed credible information. When the LPO was INFORMING you to your face that We are Way Too Busy to Be Your Personal Information Booth. GOT IT? 1 min later Cornell is quoting a maint Reference and handing you the NavAdmin Message...and Making LPO look like a pure DumbAzz in the process.

I figured enough times "He Outshined His Boss" that his Efforts were holding him back. He had the medals, knew his job, and but leadership just treated him like every other Junior like Sweeping a hangar deck and Repeatedly Washing Filthy Airplanes. This was truely a Jem in a sea of pogue 4.0 Sailors Too bad the 5.0 Early Promote Eval was still years away.

GTG. Did Amn COrnell ever apply for OCS? Or did the "leadership" prevent that? Even if the the latter is true, then it would depend on how bad he wanted OCS.

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Now Joining the Enlisted side is gonna be a waste if you get stuck here.

That depends on what "stuck" is how you present yourself.

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Also Knowing that People with Multi-Enlistments are not going to appreciate You trying to jump ahead of their Efforts.

Then that's poor leadership if you ask me.

Unless you've been an officer, it's still easy to tell someone to go that route if you've never been there.

I'm not an advocate for going enlisted or officer, but I do advocate seeing what your abilities are and choose your route. Amn Cornell seemed to have the traits of a leader and MAYBE an officer, but apparently something was missing, otherwise he would be a LCDR by now (if you say this was the early '90s. It takes about nine to ten years after commissioning to pick up Maj/LCdr provided you don't foul up). The leadership might be at fault, but hey if you want something bad enough, you'll get there! Being bitter or letting others get in your way won't get you where you want.

All I'm Saying is this was THE GUY...An E-3 with 3 Achievement Medals and his EAWS Qual is enough Motivation for Me.

To the Origional Poster: Dont bother wasting a perfectly good degree in English and Political Science going Enlisted and Hoping to Go Officer. (That Line gets longer by the Minute by Miles.) The Avail. Aviation Officer Billets are Mainly in Maintenance Control. No Wings/NO Flying.

My Background is Aviation:
That Said, If your Heart is set on "Flying For a Living", you can come into the Navy as Aircrew. The AW Rate is Wide Open and Flight Engineers (3rd guy in cockpit) are always in demand. Training is Long and Study intensive. Also Your Swimming Ability is Mandatory on Day 1.
Enough People that were Aircrew went onto become Officers after enough years in the air. Choice is Yours Numbers.
Good Luck.

Pizzadude
Boston Mass.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pizzadude,

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Originally posted by pizzadude:
All I'm Saying is this was THE GUY...An E-3 with 3 Achievement Medals and his EAWS Qual is enough Motivation for Me.

Question is, did "THE GUY" ever apply for OCS, or did he feel down about making the Khakis look bad an d them retaliating (if any) that he said forget it? Again, if he wanted to be an officer bad enough, he would have become one, even through going through an enlistment first. You're right, he had all these traits and awards to prove he should be an officer, but unfortunately he apparently lacked the desire. If he lost the desire when he arrived to the Fleet, then it's on him, not the system.