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Basic Training |
RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,154718,00.html
Hugh R. Taylor 10th SFG\ABN http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,154718,00.html Let's not make to much over the salute, as to when you or don't. I will, even as a civillian continue to show my respect to all veterans & military personnel, by saluting when I think should. It's all about respect. Veterans please check out my new web site fo all vets. URL: http://oneshotonekill.org/page1.aspx |
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Member |
Any hierarchical organization (Is there any other kind?) cannot afford to have lower echelons regularly second-guessing decisions made by the higher levels. The lower level officer, who blows back a "stupid" order, risks a lot, including the possibility that he himself may be wrong.
What the U.S. military urgently needs is empowerment of the captains and the majors. Our tasks and operations should be initiated more from the gound up than they appear to be. I think that the Army should look at the concept of increasing the size of a company and make the Company Commander a major. A lot of the jobs being done by majors now could be manned by captains, who would act more as facilitators for the operational units than as managers of staff sections. I can't remember a full colonel, who wasn't also an imposing and confident leader. But I only worked for infantrymen. |
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Basic Training |
Stupid is as stupid does......Forrest Gump
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Member |
Often times I have been given what I thought were stupid orders, only to find out there was an important reason. It has a lot to do with faith and respect for our seniors. They are the leaders, they know what they want to accomplish and youmay only have a small piece of that tasking. DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY
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Experienced Member |
I can tell you what the rule is for surgical residents ... you should question the senior surgeon's directions at most once ... by asking "uhhh, are we sure?" ... then follow directions. |
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Experienced Member |
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Basic Training |
I certainly do not advocate disobeying orders, I just hope that everytime they send out military to fight that they have remembered and applied the Strategy and tactics that Colin Powell and Casper Weinberger created for future conflicts. In retrospect the 58,000 men and women who died in Vietnam are similar to the men in the Charge of the Light Brigade. Our Leaders gave us orders to go to Vietnam, but they never gave us the men, equipment, and objective to decimate every Viet Cong and Regular that existed, and hold the territory we bled to gained below the DMZ. Were those stupid, illegal, or immoral orders that sent men to die in a conflict that had no plan that would lead to victory. The only good outcome that was Victorious in Vietnam was the Patriotic service that was rendered by every Airman, Marine, Soldier, and Swabby that did their Duty.
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Basic Training |
Many thanks to all for some great feedback, I appreciate it.
I do have to take issue with the consistent assertion of "follow orders, the superiors know better." This assumes the superiors have previous experience relevant to the situation. The problem is, most folks wearing stars and eagles these days have never practiced any kind of counterinsurgency or engaged in the kind of asymmetric fighting typical of today's environment. Part of empowering leaders is understanding that sometimes, the low man on the totem pole has the clearest perspective. Ray Kimball |
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Basic Training |
To encourage junior officers to refuse 'stupid orders' is to encourage mutiny.
Would you consider an order to send light infantry, trained only for attack, into defensive positions against armor, with little or no anti-tank weapons, in the snow, a 'stupid order'? Common sense says "yes, it is" But if the junior officers of the 101st Airborne had refused those 'stupid orders', the German offensive in the Ardennes Forest in 1944 would have succeeded in splitting the Allied armies, and would have prolonged the war. Junior officers have a legal and moral obligation to obey all lawful orders, trusting their superiors to get it right. Sometimes the superiors are wrong, but it is not the place of junior officers to make that decsion. |
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Basic Training |
David:
I would hope that any officer, given that task, would immediately ask, what's the purpose. Given a purpose of "maintain control over a crucial road junction to limit German movement", you make the stand. Given a purpose of, "gee, I don't know, that just comes to mind" - that's a stupid order. That's why we require task and purpose for tactical tasks. |
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Member |
Hey StJoeBch he who hides his profile.
Stuff it...I would like to drop you right in the middle of Iraq without a weapon. Lets see how fast you pray for somebody to give somebody an order to save your azz!!! Na, it would be a stupid order. |
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Member |
I certainly don't like following, what I perceive to be, stupid orders. However, I try to keep in mind the fact that I may or may not be privy to ALL of the intelligence/information/factors/consequences that have to do with the order or mission. I may not have the need to know the full plan. No system is perfect, and I don't want to sacrifice mysel or others for stupidity. The strategic reason for a tactical movement/mission is way above most troop pay grades, and our leaders should not have to give that full and complete explanation. You receive your op-order, and you do your best to complete your mission, and get yourself and your squaddies out alive and in one piece. I'm not a spiritual man, but, I guess it's about faith. Faith in our leaders as fellow soldiers/humans, and faith in the fact that we are the good guys, and we are doing the right thing. No military action is without risk, and that is the nature of the beast. I guess all I can say is, be there for each other, and be the best at your job, so you will never fail.
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Basic Training |
If an order seems stupid one should ASK the senior person for permission to speak and clarify the order. If it must be obeyed then do it, but maybe it may get some clarification first.
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Member |
Following stupid orders is not the issue, following stupid orders from idiots is!
Out of 12 of us who grew up together from the age of 7, and all joined the military at 18, I’m the only one that survived the Viet Nam war! The other 11 have been dead now over 35 years. What do you think I think about that? BTW I was an 0311 and 0331 in the 7th Marines. For those who don't know those MOS's are Infantman and Machinegunner. I have only one word to say about following stupid orders, given by idiots, PHOOEY. This message has been edited. Last edited by: DanDaily, |
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Member |
WHAT A GRIM JEST! To have faith in and respect for 'our seniors' was proved beyond doubt the wrong course to follow, on sooo many levels, from the Viet Nam war! History is only useful if the lesson is LEARNED from the experience. And history has clearly taught us not to blindly follow orders from anyone without questioning just what the hell is going one first! |
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Basic Training |
I've had plenty of experience with this both in and out of the military. Firstly, it's a good idea to ask for clarification or suggest an alternative course of action if it can be done in a way that doesn't undermine the authority of the position or cause the person to lose face. Secondly, if there is nothing great to be lost in doing so, follow orders first and question them later. The salute at the sound of the faulty bugle call is a fine example. If all that was lost was a few moments among a portion of society that is famous for 'hurry up and wait,' where's the harm?
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Basic Training |
There is no such thing as "stupid orders", only misinformed "Stars and Bars". It is our job as senior NCO's to help them see the "error of their ways. That was tongue in cheek and intended to make light of the question. Here is what really happens. I'm a retired CMSgt(E9) and when given an order, I follow it. If the order seems "strange". I discuss it (briefly) with the officer, tell him why I think it's a little "strange" and then wait for the final decision. I then do what he/she says. Second guessing is not an option. I don't expect my officers to give illegal or immoral orders, but if it does happen - ie. murder, robbery etc., then it's time to rattle some cages above. Having been a Chief, I enjoyed that privilge of O-6's listening intently to what I have to say. And really, that is what Chiefs are for.
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Basic Training |
We are all human, thus prone to error.
If you receive a questionable order you should try to clarify the intent (goal). If the intent is fuzzy or unfocused you keep asking questions to force your senior to think things through. There is rarely such thing as a perfect plan. However, there is a lot you can do as a junior officer/NCO to compensate for the flaws in a plan. You can often make some arrangements to cover for the weak spots while still staying within your lane. Still, you may find yourself (as I have) with a set of bad, very specific orders and a senior who will not budge. If it is a point dealing with the efficiency in a procedure or simply something that you do not think is necessary, just carry on and do your duty. However, if the outcome involves an unnecessary loss of life or a breach of values you should go back to your senior and raise your concerns. If you do so in private (not as a mob in front of everyone) you may be able to reach him/her without affecting morale. In the end, you have to live with yourself. I would rather give away rank and position than carry the though of having wasted away somebodyś life. Or worse. I am horrified at the thought of finding out that the price on my morals could be as low as a new position or the next rank. |
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Basic Training |
What defines a "stupid" order? Since that answer is individual to each and every one of us, advocating disobeying "stupid" orders only leads to anarchy.
This country and its military is great in large part because we understand that legal orders given by our superiors are sacrocanct. You can ask for clarification if you don't understand them or even offer alternatives, but often times the receiver does not have the benefit of the orignators information. Therefore, what seems stupid to you may in fact be a very valid order. Hindsight is 20/20, so after the fact orders may seem silly, stupid or simply not the best course of action, but in combat, you don't have the luxury of hindsight. Leave the questions to the historians and the armchair generals. |
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Basic Training |
AN ORDER IS AN ORDER! You follow the order, no matter how stupid you think is sounds; the person giving the order probably has more facts than you. Second guessing does not work. Case in point, in Vietnam on a recon patrol, I gave the order to skirt the edge of a field rather than go directly through it. My men did. The next unit went through the field directly. They suffered sex killed and four wounded.
Nuff said. |
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