Check These Out: Buddy Finder | Videos | SpouseBUZZ | My Friend Network | News | Military Equipment


Military.com    Military.com Forums  Hop To Forum Categories  Sound Off!  Hop To Forums  The War Reporter - Joe Galloway    Re-open Investigation of Abu Ghraib
Page 1 2 

Moderators: DaveBarker
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
-star Rating Rate It!  Login/Join 
Basic Training
Picture of cjs173
Posted
RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,140697,00.html

As always, Joe is right on the money.

As always, the Bushbots here will soon scurry out of their holes and try and gnaw at him.

CJ
 
Posts: 237 | Registered: Fri 04 April 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Basic Training
Posted Hide Post
RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,140697,00.html

Joe I have never heard of you before "We Were Soldiers". I have read many of you oped and to be honest you do not impress me vary much. I have to say the Abu Ghraib mess is more and more a mess and you are right let the chips fall where they may. Let's nail the General J. K(G)arpknski to the wall. That pos should be under the brig/stockade until hell freezzzz over. I am not happy with GW or Don either but let's be honest you can blame the WH and GW all you want but I have not seen the DEMS offer anything at all other the plans to stick to all the troops and bail out of the ship even before it started to sink. Let's not forget who attacked first. I am going all the back to IRAN and the HOSTAGES. And it blows my mind how everyone like you has forgotten about the sarin gas and the yellow cake that has been found in IRAQ. I do not care how old this stuff was it was their it was found and it was not used on anyone. Yes Ronald gave some ot this to IRAQ durring the war with IRAN but it still does not come close to your pal JIMMY. So even though I may agree with you on this point you need to back off and reexamin you oped thoughts. One last thing what if all the books are open and I mean truly open and GW and DON were not invovlved as you say. WHat if it was some 4 stars in DC covering their bacon and their sercet plans. Will you shut up and admit you error's on the matter. Or will the desire to just hate and bash others not allow you to admit we can all be wrong every know and then? You will not like it if the fairness docterine not comes back to airwaves but to print and the net also would you. It will be good onky when applied where people like you think best. But be carefull what you wish for you might get it.
 
Posts: 7 | Registered: Thu 12 October 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted Hide Post
I'm with you 100% Joe! There's a problem though...

Nobody with a job in the Pentagon, the White House, or the Department of Justice wants to do anything about it. About half the people in Congress and the Senate don't want to do anything about it either. And, when this administration is finally over, the next one won't want the bother of special prosecutors trying to dig up enough evidence to put any of these guys on trial.

The really important work will be to restore individual integrity and accountability in the Executive Branch of our government, followed by a restoration of a truly professional meritocracy among the flag officers in our military.

So much depends upon who becomes the next President of the United States.
 
Posts: 1391 | Registered: Tue 31 August 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Basic Training
Posted Hide Post
Good Lord - Abu Ghraib!!! Who cares about Abu Ghraib? What a complete waste of time and money to investigate a prison that is holding a bunch of scumbags that have killed or were going to kill American troops. I swear, I see crap like this and it truly makes me wonder why I am in the military. To act like Abu Ghraib is just a tragedy on par with Nazi concentarion camps is just absurd. Get a life, what a useless column.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: Fri 29 June 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Basic Training
Picture of boatguy23
Posted Hide Post
What happened in that prison pales in comparison to what happens to an American when they become captured. Why don't you think about that for a while.
 
Posts: 25 | Registered: Tue 10 April 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted Hide Post
This is not a story about Abu Ghraib - that was covered a long time ago - this is about a Major General that was given a job to investigate a blot on our history, did it to the best of his ability, which was not what the powers to be wanted to hear or be informed about. It appears that when you are the bearer of unacceptable bad news to Administration policy, aka General Shinseki and this 2 star, you no longer have a career. Does this foster yes men - it is rather obvious that is what our military people have become. Why would a two star General be promoted to General in record time (not the norm) and be given command of our Iraq troops - why would the former Commander of Iraq troops become Chief of Staff of the Army? Rewards???? How many General did they jump over for these promotions - oh yes, those that didn't jump up and down and spout total support of what was happening. Why do we now have a Czar of Iraq Military Operations? I know that I'm probably wrong and I expect an email from the Administration telling me that I'm fired or that my career is over - oh, that's right, I've been retired 31 years.
 
Posts: 441 | Registered: Wed 02 August 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of gmost
Posted Hide Post
Below is a more dispassionate and factual account than Galloway's "Opinion" piece:

quote:
The Abu Ghraib Supplementary Documents
The Center for Public Integrity posts classified documents that form the basis of the Taguba report

By Alexander Cohen

WASHINGTON, October 8, 2004 — The military's mission at Abu Ghraib was inadequately planned almost from conception. It was subordinated to political and intelligence goals and bogged down at every level by inadequate resources and hostile conditions, according to classified documents reviewed and now posted by the Center for Public Integrity.

The documents, the first installment of background materials from Army Major General Anthony Taguba's investigation into abuses of military detainees in Iraq, were provided to the Center by Rolling Stone contributor Osha Gray Davidson. The Center plans to post the second installment of the documents later this month.

Including high-level policy memos, special investigations and witness testimony, the documents describe attacks, prisoner riots, interrogation methods and the torture and deaths of detainees. They reveal that the torture and abuse of inmates at the prison by military police, exposed in April 2004 news accounts of the classified report, took place under the guidance of military intelligence with little direct supervision from overburdened senior officers.

Documents
Methodology
Currently, the U.S. government has detained thousands of individuals in Afghanistan, Iraq and other countries suspected of ties to terrorism. Bush administration officials have suspended basic human rights protections, including provisions of the Geneva Conventions, and have detained U.S. citizens and other individuals and approved new harsh interrogation techniques. Incidents at Abu Ghraib and other locations have included sleep deprivation, hooding of prisoners, forced nudity and violent sexual abuse, the use of dogs on prisoners and beatings. Military intelligence, the Central Intelligence Agency and other, unnamed agencies interrogating prisoners were found to be involved in prisoner abuse, but government investigations conducted so far—some of which have documented the similarity of abuses in different detention areas to the government's proposed interrogation techniques—have absolved high officials of direct responsibility.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld waits to testify on the abuse of detainees in Iraq at Senate Armed Services Committee hearings, May 7, 2004. (photo: Jerry Morrison/DOD)
The Taguba report, though publicly available, is still classified. The CIA, conducting its own investigation, has not released any information, and the U.S. government has stalled Freedom of Information Act requests for the background materials for the Taguba and other investigations. The documents being posted by the Center offer the most complete, first-hand account ever made available.

The 800th Military Police Brigade assumed responsibility for all Iraqi detention operations during the summer of 2003 under a new commander, reservist Brigadier General Janis Karpinski. Mobilized since January, Karpinski's unit was already significantly understaffed and many of its soldiers were beyond their initial six-month tours of duty. The Brigade's 320th Battalion, assigned to Abu Ghraib under Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, had also already been investigated, and four soldiers charged, for a prior incident of prisoner abuse at Camp Bucca, located in the south of Iraq near Umm Qasr.

Taguba cited Karpinski's poor leadership in several areas in his report, including stating that though Karpinski claimed to have visited detention facilities, her appointment calendar showed such visits were infrequent. However, the testimony of her chief aide, Lieutenant Elvis Mabry, indicates that she was frequently visiting facilities prior to November and the calendar he provided, though hard to read, shows at least nine visits from June through October. Taguba also blamed Karpinski for not removing Phillabaum after she temporarily relieved him of command in October, though she stated that she lacked sufficient capable officers and had little choice.

"Boots on the Ground"
The 320th Battalion assumed operations at Abu Ghraib in July 2003, taking over from another MP unit. An investigative report from June, known as a 15-6, reported a riot during the second week in one of the two outside camps housing prisoners, Camp Vigilant. Prisoners threw rocks and tent poles, protesting conditions, including insufficient water with local temperatures running well over one hundred degrees. Subduing them, the MPs killed at least one prisoner and injured several others. A prisoner also escaped through a fence by spreading apart the concertina wires with cardboard. The report explained that the prisoners slept on the cardboard and that "this was good for preventive medicine." Another riot occurred in November in the second camp, Ganci, when an incident quickly spread to engulf all eight compounds. According to the serious incident report filed, guards fired upon the prisoners, killing four and injuring eight.

Designed to operate from the rear beyond hostilities, the Battalion dealt with almost daily external assaults. During July, the 280-acre prison complex was the target of numerous assaults including seven mortar attacks during a two-week period as well as rocket propelled grenade attacks and several incidents of gunfire. Other serious incident reports from the compound describe a mortar attack on August 16th that injured 62 prisoners and killed three and another attack on an outside military intelligence tent on September 20 that severely injured 12 soldiers and killed one.

The prison faced numerous internal security issues as well, relying on contractors and Iraqi Correctional Officers. In an incident on November 24, an Iraqi prisoner in the wing used for security detainees fired on Sergeant William Cathcart and several other soldiers, with a pistol smuggled in by one of the Iraqi guards. According to squad leader Sergeant Robert Elliott, an investigation would later conclude that several of the guards were Fedayeen operatives. A "SPOT" report from January 30, 2004, also reported the failure of 15 Iraqi guards to show up for work.

Human Rights Violations and Early Warnings
Amidst the chaos, members of the 205th military intelligence brigade were establishing interrogation operations, eventually using part of the main prison building, nicknamed the "hard site," and two sheds for interrogation of prisoners of special security value. The January 2004 Criminal Investigation Division investigation and depositions that preceded Taguba's report would document that most of the alleged prisoner abuse occurred in these areas. The investigation—which readers should be warned is extremely graphic in its details—lists the involvement of more than 10 soldiers and civilian contractors in abusing more than 20 detainees, including repeated, severe beatings—some of injured detainees, as well as nudity, sexual abuse including raping and sodomizing detainees, forced food and sleep deprivation and various methods of humiliation.

Maj. Gen. George Fay discusses his investigation into the abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison, during an Aug. 25, 2004, press conference. At right is Lt. Gen. Anthony Jones, the lead investigator for the Fay report. (photo: R. D. Ward/DOD)
Much of the abuse was conducted by members of the 372nd military police company who arrived at the prison in September, but the documents record the presence, direction and participation of military intelligence as well. They also describe members of covert intelligence agencies and military units hiding some detainees, including one who died in custody, from human rights organizations in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

An August 2004 report in the Lancet accused medical personnel of complicity in abuses, and the documents provide some new support for those charges. One detainee, for example, received several beatings, had his kidney, back and legs jumped on, and was sodomized with a police baton. A comparison of detainee identification numbers with serious incident reports reveals that a detainee with the same number was evacuated on December 2 to a combat army surgical hospital on suspicion of a ruptured appendix. Another detainee, shot during the incident with Sergeant Cathcart on November 24, stated that he was beaten on his injured legs, a statement corroborated by Sergeant Reuben Layton. Layton, who witnessed the beating by Corporal Charles Graner while treating the detainee, said that he did not report that and other incidents because he knew military intelligence was involved in some of them and thought they were sanctioned.

CID testimony would also reveal the use of military dogs in interrogations, including an incident in which a prisoner was bitten. Witnesses indicated that Colonel Thomas Pappas, commander of the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, approved the use of those dogs for interrogations, contrary to his statements in his deposition. In fact, a November 30th memo from Pappas to coalition commander Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez specifically requests the use of muzzled dogs in an interrogation. Sanchez would state that he never specifically approved a request to use dogs in an interrogation.

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld takes a tour of the Abu Ghraib prison, on May 13, 2004. (photo: Jerry Morrison/DOD)
Many of the problems eventually revealed at Abu Ghraib were uncovered in a November 6th evaluation by Major General Donald Ryder. Visiting military detention centers run by the 800th, Ryder's team found that human rights, health, sanitation, and security conditions met "minimal standards," but that most units were undermanned, noting that "the prison staff lacks resources to provide basic necessities," and that "current physical lay-out conditions in many facilities are abysmal." The team found major sanitation problems at Abu Ghraib, including trash-strewn compounds (one had even been built above a disintegrating landfill), and flimsy tents that provided little protection from the weather and enemy attacks. Their report suggested that future detention operations at the prison were not sustainable, finding that "the area is not conducive to the long term management of detainees."

Ryder also pointed out that units "did not receive corrections specific training" during mobilization. While he didn't find that military police units were deliberately applying inappropriate confinement procedures, he did find "a wide variance in standards." Units with corrections officers were singled out as more effective in running prisons, finding that "military police generally lack the requisite institutional knowledge." Noting that "management of multiple disparate groups of detained persons in a single location by members of the same unit invites confusion about handling, processing and treatment," Ryder's report recommended segregating different detainees and consolidating security detainees at Abu Ghraib. He also recommended against using military police in interrogations or procedures, "clearly separating the actions of the guards from those of the military intelligence personnel."

Setting the conditions
An investigation by Major General Geoffrey Miller reveals the interest of high-level officials in obtaining valuable intelligence from the prisoners at Abu Ghraib and other detention facilities in Iraq. Miller, the head of intelligence and interrogation operations at Guantanamo Bay, arrived in late August with interrogation experts from Guantanamo, military intelligence and the CIA. Seeking to "rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence," the team made three main recommendations: that interrogation operations needed a "unified strategy to detain, interrogate, and report information," that on-site analysts be integrated into interrogation operations, and that detention operations must "act as an enabler for interrogation." Calling for "one command authority," the report specified establishing a center to "consolidate both detention and strategic interrogation operations and result in synergy between MP and MI resources," and recommended using military police to set interrogation conditions. The report also noted a lack of both written guidelines and effective detainee processing and release procedures, calling for expanded training and procedures to create a "safe, secure and humane environment that supports the expeditious collection of intelligence." The team, concluding its evaluation on September 9th, predicted a "significant improvement" in intelligence operations by early October.

Following the Miller evaluation, two memos on interrogation rules and procedures were issued by Sanchez. The second, issued October 12, 2003, was reportedly penned after Central Command disallowed some interrogation procedures detailed in the earlier September 14 memo. Approved interrogation techniques listed in the second memo included segregation of detainees and deliberately trying to frighten them. Sanchez instructed interrogators to "completely control the interrogation environment," including the detainee's food, clothing and shelter, and to work in "close cooperation with detaining units." Listed safeguards to protect detainees included allowing adequate sleep, food and water and muzzling any military working dogs. The use of techniques that were not listed by the general required his approval and review by the Coalition's judge advocate.

Major General Antonio Taguba (photo: DOD)
Meanwhile, efforts to fulfill the recommendations and goals of the Miller evaluation were proceeding. In September, intelligence operations were consolidated under the Joint Interrogation and Detention Center at the prison and the head of the center, Lieutenant Colonel Steven Jordan, told investigators that the interrogation center had been put together at the direction of the White House specifically to consolidate intelligence information regarding possible terrorist activity. As the head of the JIDC, Jordan was questioned by Taguba about his knowledge of abuses that took place in the facility and told Taguba that he had little knowledge of abuses and hardly set foot in the facility, a statement contradicted by the testimony of numerous other witnesses, including Sergeant Shannon Snider, who wrote in a sworn statement that Jordan visited the interrogation wing "almost daily." In spite of Colonel Pappas's role as the overall head of military intelligence at the facility, Jordan would also tell investigators that he acted in a liaison role and ultimately reported to Major General Barbara Fast, the head of intelligence operations at Coalition headquarters.

Aggravating accountability issues, military intelligence was given control over the base on November 19th—that in spite of Ryder's specific recommendations to clearly separate detention and intelligence operations. A briefly worded order assigned control of the facility to Colonel Pappas. That order further muddied the waters regarding overall responsibility for the base. Brigadier General Karpinski, for example, insisted that it gave overall control to Colonel Pappas. Pappas disagreed, claiming in his depositions that he was solely responsible for issues relating to the defense of the facility and the security of its detainees and personnel. The testimony of other soldiers also reveals considerable confusion over the extent of military intelligence authority. Sergeant Elliot would tell investigators that command authority "just depended [on] who was around at the time."

Both Pappas and Jordan testified to receiving considerable pressure to extract information from detainees, which led to friction with some of the MPs assigned to escort prisoners to the interrogation area. Shortly after the 19th, MPs stopped officially escorting prisoners, though different parties gave different reasons for that action in testimony. Karpinski and Major Michael Sheridan both testified that in addition to the manpower issues mentioned by Pappas and Jordan, he stopped escorts after personally witnessing the interrogation of a naked male prisoner, an incident he reported to both the 320th MP Battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, and to the 372nd Company commander, Capt. Donald Reese.

Major Sheridan and other interviewed soldiers also testified that they tried to obtain written guidance from interrogation officers on proper limits to interrogations. Snider of the 372nd MP Company told investigators that he unsuccessfully asked for written guidelines from several military intelligence officers including Captain Carolyn Wood, Chief Warrant Officer Edward Rivas and the Judge Advocate for military intelligence at the base. Fellow company member Sergeant Keith Comer agreed, writing in his sworn statement that military intelligence produced very little in writing.

Lieutenant Colonel Jordan indicated in his testimony that Colonel Pappas was similarly reluctant to keep a record regarding "ghost detainees"—prisoners held without record on behalf of various intelligence agencies and special military units, including the CIA, the Iraqi Survey Group and Delta Force. Jordan claimed that, in a meeting with Pappas, he, Captain Wood, Chief Rivas and Major David DiNenna of the 320th MP Battalion all asked for a memo detailing agreements to hide the OGA detainees (OGA is short for "Other Government Agencies," a euphemism for the CIA). Jordan also revealed his role in persuading Red Cross inspectors on a second visit to the prison that their safety would be easier to guarantee if they interviewed detainees in a central location instead of their cells. It would later be revealed that several detainees were hidden in interrogation cells from the Red Cross during this visit.

Despite efforts to hide documentation about the ghost detainees, some officers outside of Abu Ghraib became aware that prisoners were being kept off the books. Legal officer Colonel Ralph Sabatino, a judge advocate working with the Coalition Provisional Authority, told investigators that he observed 11 secret security internees when he visited the prison security wing in early January 2004, undocumented in violation of the Geneva Conventions. He also recounted an embarrassing diplomatic incident, later publicized, of three detainees sought by the Saudi government who were hidden at the prison for several weeks.

Shortly after Sabatino's visit, Specialist Joseph Darby of the 372nd MP Company alerted Army investigators to the numerous incidents of prisoner abuse that had been taking place in the interrogation facilities at Abu Ghraib. At that point, according to a report submitted by the 205th, Abu Ghraib's main building housed 865 prisoners, while the interrogation operation included 43 detained alleged Al Qaeda and Ansar al-Islam operatives. That month, Major General Taguba was ordered to begin an investigation, which commenced with his appointment at the end of January.

On September 15, a federal district court judge upheld an ACLU demand for the release of records of prisoner abuse, ordering the Defense Department to produce or identify them by October 15, 2004.

 
Posts: 1148 | Registered: Tue 20 September 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of smokey5
Posted Hide Post
If one needed an example of how blind hatred can consume someone, then look no farther than Joe.
 
Posts: 859 | Registered: Wed 20 October 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Highly Experienced Member

Old Fart #00

Picture of JimSorber
Posted Hide Post
More incoherent babbling from Ol' Joe. Should not sleeping dogs be left to lie? This one's for you, JCR! Dvlish
 
Posts: 7583 | Registered: Thu 23 January 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
10 day suspension for CiC bashing. 30 Jan 08 dmuhler
Posted Hide Post
Totally over this one Joe. Considering the fine treatment our captives get when their heads are lopped off...leaves me not caring one iota about these Islamic scumbags. What goes around, comes around!
 
Posts: 412 | Registered: Wed 14 March 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted Hide Post
"It's long past time for Congress to reopen the matter of who's really responsible for Abu Ghraib and let the chips fall where they may - even if that means they pile up around the retirement home of a former secretary of defense or the gates of the White House itself."

I think they will Joe, I think they will. It's just a matter of time.
 
Posts: 1246 | Registered: Fri 09 June 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Basic Training
Posted Hide Post
Right on the money Joe!
This is another example of an administration who believes they are above the law.
History will show that this administration's flaws exceed most if not all previous administrations and thier interpretation of the law and the global ramafication of thier arrogance and ignorance will affect the future of this nation for the next half century.
 
Posts: 4 | Registered: Wed 20 July 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Posted Hide Post
Let us not forget, Abu Ghraib was a symptom, not the disease. Gen. Taguba did his job consistent with duty, honor, country and inconsistent with the wishes of power, and was bureaucratically "punished" like an insubordinate soldier getting sent to the Aleutians. Those in power were exposed as a cabal of zealots who overreacted to information consistent with their fears (such as Frontline's The Darkside) and desires and dismissed reports that disagreed (such as Reconstructing Iraq published two months before the invasion of Iraq in '03). It's no longer about Abu Ghraib. It's about American principles that assert we hold ourselves to higher standards than religious fanatics, international terrorists, war criminals and "rogue nations." It's about recognizing that Abu Ghraib would never have stayed hidden, and whenever it was revealed the damage to our nation's prestige would be devasting. It's about retaking the moral high ground.
 
Posts: 1542 | Registered: Wed 02 August 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Highly Experienced Member

Old Fart #00

Picture of JimSorber
Posted Hide Post
Somebody get a napkin.....Joe's droolin' again. Abu Ghraib is over and already gone under the bridge. People have been reprimanded, relieved and imprisoned already. What purpose could it serve to reopen this can of worms? Droolin' Joe must be running short of stuff to carp and complain about.
 
Posts: 7583 | Registered: Thu 23 January 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Highly Experienced Member

Old Fart #00

Picture of JimSorber
Posted Hide Post
There is a cretin by the name of Joe C Ruger that has chosen to email me by PM with his personal rants about Droolin' Joe Galloway. it appears that this cretin has been banned from posting on Military.com, but still has chosen to read my profile and attack me with personal comments. I choose not to hide my profile from this cowardly attack and dare this buttmonger to attack me in the open where I have fair opportunity to duel it out with him. I have previously brought this to the attention of the mods and remain under attack so now it is self-defense and I hope that this moron will expose himself and give me the opportunity to expose him as a fake, poser and charlatan. Joe C Ruger, winner of the grade of E3 after more than 6 years in the Navy....I hope that you are paying attention and if there is somebody out there that knows your status and whereabouts, maybe we will have the opportunity to meet face to face. Until then.....bite me, Squid.
 
Posts: 7583 | Registered: Thu 23 January 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of AMS1tinksworld
Posted Hide Post
I am beginning to wonder if The representation of Joe Galloway in the movie We Were Soldiers is accurate...if it is...it is hard to believe that he produces Bilge like this....

This is over and done...those responsible have received their punishments...and those that haven't will...let it go...
 
Posts: 1159 | Registered: Wed 22 February 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Basic Training
Posted Hide Post
Oh, Joe... your sympathy for those "poor, abused" wretched souls who would slit your throat in a NY minute is SICKENING! These jihadists weren't subjected to torture... just hazing that fails to compare to how any of our service members are treated should they be captured... PLEASE save the drama and pity for some deserving souls!
 
Posts: 158 | Registered: Wed 25 April 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of Weatherguesser
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Let's nail the General J. K(G)arpknski to the wall.


Along with every single person above her who initiated the attrocities, ordered HER to shut-up and look the other way?

Joe Galloway's reporting is above reproach, or I am certion someone in here would have proven him to be a liar, long ago... right?

Yah, right.

You'd think the spin meisters would too, but nope. See they can't, because he is speaking the truths of what most of us didn't know, but is IN the Congressional Record - and has been, for a long time now.

But hey, if anybody can prove him wrong, please go ahead. I'd sure like to see that.
 
Posts: 2272 | Registered: Sat 23 September 2000Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Member
Picture of Weatherguesser
</
Posted Hide Post