Do they still teach manual computation of firing data in Ft. Still? Or is it all computers now?

Manual gunnery sucked ass. When I got out in 04 the btry level still had someone going over along with the computer. As much as it sucked, I hope they still are. What else would they do if the comp or the generator **** the bed? Let the grunts get waisted? Don't see that happening anytime soon.

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Manual gunnery sucked ass.

And just what do you think Marine and Army artillery used from the WWI era through Viet Nam and beyond?
You obviously never were in a situation that required you to use 'charts and darts', so you're not able to appreciate just how good a sharp FDC could be.
I was one of the first Marines trained on the old FADAC back in 1968. It was a good piece of gear, but the generator was unreliable, the machine tended to overheat- we didn't have air conditioned bunkers or tents- and getting it fixed was difficult.
AFATDS is a great piece of gear; I've had some familiarization training with it and my manual gunnery background enabled me to quickly understand what had to happen.(All my co-workers are former or retired Army- most of them have computer skills superior to mine- but have no clue what AFATDS is really useed for.)Bottom Line: If you can master the rudiments of manual gunnery, you should be able to understand AFATDS or any future system.
And I hope we're still maintaining our skills with 'charts and darts'. Computers don't work all the time!

You meen they didn't have computers back then?
Manual gunnery was pain in the ass to learn. For someone who never learned more then pre-algebra before enlisting I ended up having to find a math tutor in order to leave Ft Sill as an FDC man. I found it very complex and a pain is the ass, yet a necesity for where I was put as a Marine. Once I learned it and could do it, didn't make it any less of a pain.
The btry still had one man on computer, one man doing the charts. We still trained on how to do charts. It was a necesary evil. For the reason we both reiterated: generators fail, computers crash. The mission needs to be able to be accomplished, so I would assume and hope that they are still teaching and requiring manual gunnery.
Aside from being 'required' to do them before a mission could be sent to make sure everything was concurent, you are correct. I have never been in a situation where there was not the two man integrity with one of them being on a computer vise both Marines useing charts. And a good chart man would have his data almost point on with that silly box. I was not that good. No where near it.

AFATDS was looked at as a piece of **** that took over a year for us to have anything remotely close to a practical use for it more then a virtual map. Once we were given the chance to utilize it properly it was a much better system. From a lack of knowlage to the system itself, to the higher ups dragging there feet on wanting something different then what they had, it made it more complicated then it had to be. We recieved them at somepoint in my first 18 months in. What realy made it practicle was when one of the developers came into the field with us, as well as gave classes on main side on its operation.

I remember the FADAC, we used it when I was in HQ Btry 1/11 with MSGT Lewis and Major Sharples worked in the S-3, LtCol Redman was the Bn C.O.

When you new guys speak of doing manual, that means you just follow along with charts? Do you still have the computer sticks? And of course Ft. Sill FDC classes were a pain in the ass, learing manual FDC, but it was alot different out in the Fleet. Not only could you use the charts and darts and the sticks, but you could work firing data straight out of the books. I forgot what they're called, but I saw Top Lewis do it straight from the firing tables.

Anyway, I loved Las Pulgas and 1/11. Great place to be in the 80's.

We still used the charts and darts. The first thing I did when a Marine came to me from school is teach them the five requirements. Then I based the rest fo the lessons off of that. It gave them the sense of why and a better understanding of what they were doing. One of the first things I did when I was established in a position was ensure all of the manaul stuff was ready to go and on occasion we shot straight manual. I loved doing the live fire hip shoots.

As far as which place I liked more, I would have to say "N" Street more than Pulgas. 11th Marines was definately quicker to adopt the AFATDS (Advanced Field Artillery Tactical Data System) which replaced the BCS, which replaced the FADAC. 4 years after I left 10th Marines they still had not really integrated the the EPLRS to handle their digital comm. They were still using the sincgars.

I hated 10th Marines and LeJeune. When were you there?

April 1999 to Dec 2002

I honestly can't remember which we were using more or if there was anything that was an issue with using EPLRS properly. I know we had used both while I was at 1/10 (03-04), but never herd it prior to that with 2/10. I suppose that is one of those things that seemed important at the time but after being out for 5 years has nothing with any memory of my active duty time.

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And of course Ft. Sill FDC classes were a pain in the ass, learing manual FDC, but it was alot different out in the Fleet.

I didn't find it any easier in the fleet. Books and all. I could do it, just never seemed to be fast enough and never with the ease that a lot of the other guys seemed to have. I think my main hang up was I couldn't understand the how and why. No matter how many times I was told to forget the how and why it works.

When I first got to Las Pulgas, it was strictly all manual. We had the FADAC but it never worked. Then about 85 or 86 we got the BUCS system and it was pretty good when it didn't crash and erase all your data. In 89 I got to 10th Marines and there was a new computer system they were bringing in as I was getting out in 91. I can't remember what it was called though, I wasn't around long enough to learn how to use it.

1981-1989. 0844 FDC/Surveyor (I am a land surveyor now, as a matter of fact). I was with Delta 2/12 back in 1984 and we were in Subic Bay, PI. I found these odd looking gold push pins with gold skulls and red eyes. We took a set of five and had them placed in a glass case with scarlet red felt back board. I would hang in the FDC truck above my field desk. It read, "In case of war, break this glass, grab the pins and kick some a$$!". Pins, RDP, plotting scale and slide sticks. Good Times!

Semper Fi!
Jarhead

PS, I remember back at Ft. Sill, the whole class in the diamond push-up position with your nose touching the deck, one guy doing the calcs and the instructor pacing around the class room saying, "Marines are dying, give me the answer!". My mind would often wonder, "man, if our teachers taught classes like this back in High School, we would all be very, very smart!"

Semper Fi!
Jarhead