RE: http://www.military.com/featur...15240,201577,00.html

Just why would women even want to be on submarines. I was on a nuclear submarine and the conditions are difficult enough for men. Likewise, I was in Iraq in a war zone and conditions there, bad as they were, were better there than they would be aboard a submarine beneath the sea for months at a stretch. This gets hashed out every few years with the same result. Put the politics and the feel good/made for television reasons aside. No women on submarines.

Let us ask the wives of the sub sailors what
they think. O yeah, when meeting in a SSN
passageway should a male and female sailor
turn face to face or back to back so they
can both continue on? As a sailor who
served on a ship with women I often wonder
why the truth of what really occurs never
is published for the masses. It is so
easy for the JCF Chief to be politicaly
correct when he will never serve aboard
a co-ed submarine. I do not have enough
room or time to post the truth but those
of you who have served on said crews
know what I am talking about. Just
another reason I retired. I will now
stand by for heavy rolls from the left.

imo as long as they can perform just as well as the their male equivalents, there is no problem. none of stuff like different physical fitness testing for females. needs to be flat out the same for all!

Having just come back from Iraq I've seen how hard it was for the women and the dicipline problems it caused with the men. I applaud their willingness to serve but these politicians (and the joint chiefs ARE politicians) need to put the good of the service BEFORE the good of their careers and political correctness. It sounds and feels good to say but the reality is much different. Just take a look at the sexual assault stats out of the Iraq and Afgan wars... while it doesn't say much about some of our fellow servicemen the sad fact is it does happen and will continue to happen.

We have women serving on the ISS,we are even planning to have women on the Mars missions, why NOT have women on board a ship that would simulate the conditions on a space station or a spaceship to Mars. Just think, if they put smaller females on board subs one may not even worry about the cramped spaces. Come on everyone on board those ships, be they on surface or under it, are adults and should behave themselves accordingly. Oh, how has the A.F. dealt with females in confined areas? They have had women officers in those silos for years.

Do I have to come right out and say it?
It is not about performance... It's about
hormones.....sex issues.... and all the
soap opera stories that go along with it.
Of the 115 woman assigned to one of my
ships (a large Destroyer tender) 25 were
pregnant during the first 12 months.
During a deployment guess who were
heading to the hotels? Married men
and single women. Those of you who
refuse not to believe this have been
living on another planet where people
are genderless. The bottom line is
that all of the above is just bad
for moral. Commanding Officers rare-
ly make thease facts available for
good reason.. their fitness reports.
I remember while on deployment the
scuttlebutt talk was "who is doing
who"? A CO cannot order the crew to
stop from fornicating. He may but
many will not comply, I am sorry to
inform you.

quote:

Originally posted by jetturbin:
Do I have to come right out and say it?
It is not about performance... It's about
hormones.....sex issues.... and all the
soap opera stories that go along with it.
Of the 115 woman assigned to one of my
ships (a large Destroyer tender) 25 were
pregnant during the first 12 months.
During a deployment guess who were
heading to the hotels? Married men
and single women. Those of you who
refuse not to believe this have been
living on another planet where people
are genderless. The bottom line is
that all of the above is just bad
for moral. Commanding Officers rare-
ly make thease facts available for
good reason.. their fitness reports.
I remember while on deployment the
scuttlebutt talk was "who is doing
who"? A CO cannot order the crew to
stop from fornicating. He may but
many will not comply, I am sorry to
inform you.

We had the same questions asked when they integrated missile crews. I had a female deputy for the first crew that I commanded. I will frankly admit that she was hot. However, as with most of the integration issues, the sex part was pretty much of a non issue. Yes, there are cases of people slipping, but the overwhelming majority just do their jobs. I suspect it will be the same aboard the subs.

Please, no. There are some environments in the military in which women simply don't belong...subs, spec-ops, the front line... It's not that we can't do the job, because I'm sure there are some who can. But, not everything in life has to be equal, nor fair. Adding women into the mix in these environments is a recipe for disaster - operationally, ethically and morally.

quote:

Originally posted by AirForceAggie:

quote:

Originally posted by jetturbin:
Do I have to come right out and say it?
It is not about performance... It's about
hormones.....sex issues.... and all the
soap opera stories that go along with it.
Of the 115 woman assigned to one of my
ships (a large Destroyer tender) 25 were
pregnant during the first 12 months.
During a deployment guess who were
heading to the hotels? Married men
and single women. Those of you who
refuse not to believe this have been
living on another planet where people
are genderless. The bottom line is
that all of the above is just bad
for moral. Commanding Officers rare-
ly make thease facts available for
good reason.. their fitness reports.
I remember while on deployment the
scuttlebutt talk was "who is doing
who"? A CO cannot order the crew to
stop from fornicating. He may but
many will not comply, I am sorry to
inform you.

We had the same questions asked when they integrated missile crews. I had a female deputy for the first crew that I commanded. I will frankly admit that she was hot. However, as with most of the integration issues, the sex part was pretty much of a non issue. Yes, there are cases of people slipping, but the overwhelming majority just do their jobs. I suspect it will be the same aboard the subs.

A 15-20% pregnancy rate on a sea deployment is more than "people slipping." It isn't a matter of a person’s right in the military. It's a matter of mission success. Let's not jeopardize the mission or the other people performing it because of other peoples perceived rights.

As an old sea dog, I would like to see women be able to serve on subs. But with the high deployment schedules and long hours at sea, I don't think it would be advisable at this time. Iknow many marriages that failed becuase of service in subs. I never served on a sub, but had several close friends that did. Three of them were divorced because their spouse couldn't handle being married to a submariner.

If they place women on Subs I'll volunteer to go back to active duty as a bubble head.

Not a new concept at all!

Another fact to consider is that in addition to submarines, women cannot serve in Navy and Army special forces, Marine 0311 (infantry), Army 11B (infantry) and other Army combat arms MOSs. However, through "point of contact" such as serving as MPs, in security details, motor transport, and as other combat support and support troops, and in combination with the unintended circumstances of both proximity and timing during an enemy action, our brave women warriors have found themselves in combat with their male counterparts. That was never the intended plan when women's roles were expanded. Unlike the other services, the Marines have a philosophy that their women Marine warriors are to be trained as warriors and if need be, able to fight on the cutting edge, but not purposely placed in any position where they are in an immediate combat scenario. The Marines are the only branch of service that has that model “and” actively implements it. How does Admiral Mullen plan to address that very successful model?

crackerjack, thank you for highlighting the problem.

What bothers me is not just this next attempt to put women on the boats, but the way the Navy's leadership has gone whole hog for 'Diversity.' It's gotten to the point now that race, gender and ethnicity are more important that competence. There is little public demand for these things and a lot of opposition among veterans and others who track military matters, so what benefit is there for the likes of Ray Mabus, ADM Roughead, ADM Mullen (who doesn't run the Navy anymore) and others to bow so easily to the PC Police.

As for putting women on submarines, this dead horse was flogged back during the Clinton years. The decision was made then that this was a bad idea, so what has changed? I've been to sea with women and their presence caused more problems than they solved. The surface force hasn't been able to make this work, despite their claims to the contrary (seen it myself, at sea), so what makes anyone think this is a good idea for submarine crews?

One more thing....the wives will go berserk. Put women on the boats and watch retention go down the san tank. The submarine wives went nuts back in the 90s when SECNAV Richard Danzig was pushing this, they'll do so again.

quote:

Originally posted by crackerjacks61:
If they place women on Subs I'll volunteer to go back to active duty as a bubble head.

Not a new concept at all!

Hope he has a big budget and plans for increasing the size of most boats. There is minimum space for things like berthing (ever hear of hot bunking?) and facilities (heads & showers). The CPO quarters is about the space for a medium size bathroom and holds about twelve Chiefs. Aside from the obvious reasons like being at sea in a tube with 120 or so horney sailors for 70 plus days, the ship can not accomodate this rediculous social experiment. I didn't see any dolphins on the JCS. He needs to spend a little time on an SSN and see the difficulties. As stated above, if they go with females, the recruitment for the boats will soar. For a while. FBMs could be used for this experiment, they could accomodate a mixed crew as proven by mixing MMs, ENs, and RMs with ETs and Sonarmem.

Boomers were looked at closely back in the 90s. The decision was made that it wasn't a good idea on board them, either. They have more room and privacy than SSNs, but not much more. Nothing close to what is found on a surface ship.

I just got back from sea... There was a female rider onboard. She was experienced in what she did but she had to shower in the goat locker. This is fine for a rider, but for a crew member, all of us would be kicked out every time she had to shower.

quote:

Originally posted by Nanjing:

A 15-20% pregnancy rate on a sea deployment is more than "people slipping." It isn't a matter of a person’s right in the military. It's a matter of mission success. Let's not jeopardize the mission or the other people performing it because of other peoples perceived rights.

However, that's the abnormal and not the norm. It is actually a military urban legend that a love boat exists. yes, things do happen, but not at the levels you state. otherwise, you wouldn't have an operational Navy.

What is the "acceptable" percentage? Is any percentage acceptable? A deployment at sea is different from a small unit in a missile silo. On a large surface ship where the number of crew numbers are in the hundreds or even thousands, a small percentage of infidelities, many of which involve married men and women, adds up to a lot of operational problems for the Navy, social problems in dozens or hundreds of homes, low moral for all, and more responsibilities for those who can remember why they are out there. On a submarine, where every man’s duties are hard wired into the success of every other member of the crew, just one mistake, or one member of the crew not paying attention to the mission in an already difficult environment can jeopardize the entire boat and crew. Political correctness just isn't worth the mission … or that many lives.

quote:

Originally posted by AirForceAggie:

quote:

Originally posted by Nanjing:

A 15-20% pregnancy rate on a sea deployment is more than "people slipping." It isn't a matter of a person’s right in the military. It's a matter of mission success. Let's not jeopardize the mission or the other people performing it because of other peoples perceived rights.

However, that's the abnormal and not the norm. It is actually a military urban legend that a love boat exists. yes, things do happen, but not at the levels you state. otherwise, you wouldn't have an operational Navy.

No, it's not an urban legend. There is a lot of fooling around on board mixed gender ships. The pregnancies tend to increase just prior to a ship's deployment. Pregnant females get to stay home.