quote:

Sorry that I may of missunderstood the comment about Vigilanties, but that really sticks me in a spot where people who do not understand what we do, and what we sacrifice doing what we do. Because we try to assist LEO's to the best of our ability we are often labeled with many terms, that is one that I just get bent out of shape on.

I completely understand what you mean. Some of my family members call me a "wannabe vigilante" because of my membership with the USCG Aux. I still know that my heart is in the right place and I really don't care what they think I know I am doing right. I put that to bed when I finally told them "at least I have the (insert the term for "round things" that men have here) to do something instead of sitting on my a$$ like you do".

At any rate, you do what you need to do. When all is said and done, it doesn't matter what branch you are associated with, if its for the better of our country and the citizens it contains, then we are on the same team.

quote:

Using the name Border Patrol Auxiliary implies to any reasonable adult that the organization is a part of or is sponsored by the Border Patrol. Since the organization has chosen to intentionally confuse the public, other agencies, and potential members by using this name I do not believe that their intentions are honorable in any sense of the word as they have at the very core of the organization a misrepresentation of the truth, if not an outright lie.

Folks, I have participated in boards relating to State Defense Forces for years and we see this same thing all the time from groups that are nicknamed "rump militias" by those in the SDF community.

You can discount pretty much 100% of what is said by a representative of a group such as this that does everything it can to confuse people into thinking it is an actual government entity. A few statements on their web page to the contrary mean nothing when you see them in boats, planes, and other vehicles sporting "Border Patrol" on them. Such people will lie to the high heavens about how they are actually supported by the organization whose identity they are stealing.

I don't think the members in general are out to do anythhing wrong, they are just misled by their leaders who have set up the group in such a fashion to give the illusion of having more authority than they do.

Personally, I lump this group in with all these other groups that give legitimate organizations a bad name.

Now, if they want to change their name to something that clearly does not imply a governmental linkage and do not wear uniforms or other items that also might do the same, then I've got no problem with them or what they're doing.

Here we go again-

Using the name Border Patrol Auxiliary implies to any reasonable adult that the organization is a part of or is sponsored by the Border Patrol. Since the organization has chosen to intentionally confuse the public, other agencies, and potential members by using this name I do not believe that their intentions are honorable in any sense of the word as they have at the very core of the organization a misrepresentation of the truth, if not an outright lie. (Well, that is your choice, but in speaking for the organization we actually chose that name to give us more creditability, and to try to repute these types of accusations, It is NOT intended to confuse the public, we make it VERY CLEAR that we are NOT part of DHS or BP in any area. We are the private sector, doing what we feel very strong about doing to help all citizens of this country to protect us from human trafficking and drug smuggling.)

Folks, I have participated in boards relating to State Defense Forces for years and we see this same thing all the time from groups that are nicknamed "rump militias" by those in the SDF community. (We are NOT A MILITIA, to say so only implies that you have not read everything about us on the web site.)

You can discount pretty much 100% of what is said by a representative of a group such as this that does everything it can to confuse people into thinking it is an actual government entity. A few statements on their web page to the contrary mean nothing when you see them in boats, planes, and other vehicles sporting "Border Patrol" on them. Such people will lie to the high heavens about how they are actually supported by the organization whose identity they are stealing. (Really, do you actually know ME? No, you don’t, call me and I will tell you everything you have questions on, or I will work very hard to get you the answers! I am one of the founding people of this organization, I helped create it and I stand behind and in front of it 1000 %. I do NOT LIE! And I take that as a PERSONEL Hit! If you want to talk, PM me and I will give you my personal phone number)

I don't think the members in general are out to do anythhing wrong, they are just misled by their leaders who have set up the group in such a fashion to give the illusion of having more authority than they do. (Our members unlike many other groups have a say so in what we do, and in what directions they want the organization to go in, can you say that for the organizations you belong to? There will never be any misleading information sent to any member of this organization, if they have questions they ask and get answers right from the top, no BS. Our members are welcome at ANY TIME to take charge of and we encourage them to lead things that they come up with, we all put our pants on one leg at a time here)

Personally, I lump this group in with all these other groups that give legitimate organizations a bad name. ((Well, that is your choice, it still is a free country last time I looked, let’s hope it stays that way. I would like to also let you know that CBP and BP and USCG are very happy that we are working with them in this effort)

Now, if they want to change their name to something that clearly does not imply a governmental linkage and do not wear uniforms or other items that also might do the same, then I've got no problem with them or what they're doing. (Again, there is no governmental linkage, uniforms are worn to make the playing field level when we are in the field! Have you ever been to the border ? ever been pulled over by Border Patrol in the middle of the night and laid face down in the dirt for 30 minutes while they go thru your truck and everything inside because there was a mix up and someone mis-reported you? My guess is NO! We wear the uniform to make sure that BP knows who we are along with certain ID and special markings now on our vehicles that ONLY BP has access to)

quote:

Using the name Border Patrol Auxiliary implies to any reasonable adult that the organization is a part of or is sponsored by the Border Patrol.

I agree with that. If the BPAUX want to model themselves after the USCG AUX, then a good place to start would be an official affiliation with the Border Patrol.

We do not want a "Official" Affiliation at this point because we want to retain our own control over what we as private citizens do, and we want the public sector to work with the private sector, which at this point seems to be doing just fine..

But thanks for the input.

I’m going to try and see if I can make it as clear as I can to let everyone here know exactly what we do, so here it goes.

When we do our interior border musters, we take small groups of 4-8 well-trained people into the high desert mountains here in California where the rocks are as large as a house, climb up into strategic positions, and settle down for 4-6 hours at a time. We do this in the middle of summer when it is 115 degrees or when it is raining or snowing and in the middle of the night to cover border patrol shift changes. That is the time when border crossings are the heaviest in this area. We have been doing this for over 3 years now and are quite experienced at what we do.

We will often see groups as small as 3-4 people and as large as 55 trying to make the crossing into the USA at all times of the day & night. We take this information and report it to Border Patrol, giving them the specifics on what, where and when so that they can make the apprehensions, not us. We also see many groups of drug smugglers in our area, now this is a little different than taking your boat out on the water and watching for safety issues or violations from drunk boaters!

These people are REALLY dangerous folks, and don’t think twice about who stands in their way of getting across the border to make the load go through. We utilize night vision and thermal and electronic listening equipment in the field and on the water to give us the advantage of the darkness which really does help, we will be out this weekend in the Southern California areas after dark watching and reporting anyone who looks like or acts in a suspicious manor as we have been instructed by CBP.

We don’t do this because it is fun, or just because we want some type of credit for doing it, on the contrary we ask that we are not given credit for any of the assisting, we want our LEO’s to take the credit, we are just being the eyes & ears of them to assist them in getting the job done to protect America! We have found many types of materials that people have brought across the line from prayer books written in Arabic to Portuguese translation books to airline & bus tickets from south and Central America.

I hope that this helps clarify our intentions for everyone here, and helps you all to understand what we are about.

Ken

I expect that if they became an "official" auxiliary of the US Border Patrol -- the days of carrying firearms under an individual's state concealed weapons license or permit would be over...

I'm a gun toter and FL concealed carry license holder (valid in 30 or so states) myself -- so I can understand your take on the self defense position for an individual. I carry 24/7 unless somehow prohibited (as when I am participating in USCG Auxiliary activities). As soon as you use a licensing ability intended for individuals -- to arm members of an organization, you could be accused of crossing the line into becoming an armed militia or para-military group open to intense scrutiny. I know, you'll say it is simply a collection of armed individuals with a common desire to protect our borders, etc. Not going to hold up when members are encouraged with a wink and a nod to obtain an individual concealed carry license -- then the organization provides or sponsors firearms training for those members.

The media will have a field day should a BPAUX member use deadly force while conducting border patrol auxiliary activities. Should a member decide to do a "Rambo" during the course of a BPAUX mission, you may very well see a claim filed under USC 1983 (previously known as the anti-KKK law) wherby through custom and practice (not written policy), a member of your organization following those unwritten customs and practices deprived an individual of their civil rights (citizen or alien). Those claims and charges will eventually find their way to rest upon the leaders of the BPAUX -- so I hope the organization has some form of liability insurance...and coverage for directors and officers, lest they find themselves personally holding the bag when the inevitable incident involving a "overly-motivated" member occurs.

Time will tell, but I expect this will go about as far as a previously discussed upstart group -- the U.S. Water Patrol...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: flyandscuba,

Time will tell, but I expect this will go about as far as a previously discussed upstart group -- the U.S. Water Patrol...

The U.S. Water Patrol is still around and might be growing. I hadn't checked on them in a while, but now they claim to sponsor a Sea Scout Ship.

The Florida division claims to have as station in the Jacksonville area. I wonder if our friend from Lifeboats USA is near enough to verify the existence in FL of the USWP.

Based on what has been posted here, it appears that the BP Aux is going to avoid the covert/undercover/SpecOps that the USWP does or claims to do.

I am intrigued with what the BP Aux Founder/Director has posted here. I'm glad he joined the discussion.

O.K., you guys, I joined. Now I am in the market for an Ultra-Light.

SkyRay, did you really sign-up? If this turns out to be on the up-and-up I know of a whole bunch of current and former Auxies in our mutual turf who would be interested.

Going forward, I would hope the BP Aux keeps the bling, officer 'stuff' and rules & regs to a minimum - like almost non-existent.

SkrRay, second question. Can you still fly an ultra-lite without a license or is the new Sport license required as a minimum for an ultralight?

What is funny about this is I have been researching using heavy duty helium balloons as a way to get amateur HF antenneas aloft on a temporary basis. It shouldn't take much to add a camera to the payload.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FL51D7,

Ken,

Thank you for joining our little discussion.

I can understand why your land-mobile patrols communicate with the USBP but what do you envision for your water activities? The USBP doesn't have jurisdiction over water, the USCG does. The USCG program for citizen involvement, which would not preclude your group's participation, is America's Waterway Watch or AWW. Are you planning any involvement with AWW? With a few notable exceptions AWW was stillborne and pretty much remains that way today. It could use a real shot in the arm (or an even lower section of the anatomy).

quote:

FL51D7

Well, the Waterways program is certanly a interesting program, our .02 is still out on that one!

We are working with CBP here in San Diego, they work closly with USCG and have a Marine & Air support unit here and we have meet with them, they are very eager to work with us.

We have a special "Hotline#" number that we will use to report anything happening, and if that is not working we also have the personel cell phone contacts of CBP which they gave to us if we have issues in making contact with the main # in the middle of the night.

Ken,

Since the statement was made that some ex-Auxies might wish to come onboard -- it raises the question...

Does the BPAUX conduct any background checks on prospective members? If so, to what extent? The implementation of the PSI screening process by the USCG Auxiliary is the reason why some persons posting on this board are no longer members of the Auxiliary -- but "exs".

quote:

Originally posted by flyandscuba:
I expect that if they became an "official" auxiliary of the US Border Patrol -- the days of carrying firearms under an individual's state concealed weapons license or permit would be over...

I'm a gun toter and FL concealed carry license holder (valid in 30 or so states) myself -- so I can understand your take on the self defense position for an individual. I carry 24/7 unless somehow prohibited (as when I am participating in USCG Auxiliary activities). As soon as you use a licensing ability intended for individuals -- to arm members of an organization, you could be accused of crossing the line into becoming an armed militia or para-military group open to intense scrutiny. I know, you'll say it is simply a collection of armed individuals with a common desire to protect our borders, etc. Not going to hold up when members are encouraged with a wink and a nod to obtain an individual concealed carry license -- then the organization provides or sponsors firearms training for those members.

The media will have a field day should a BPAUX member use deadly force while conducting border patrol auxiliary activities. Should a member decide to do a "Rambo" during the course of a BPAUX mission, you may very well see a claim filed under USC 1983 (previously known as the anti-KKK law) wherby through custom and practice (not written policy), a member of your organization following those unwritten customs and practices deprived an individual of their civil rights (citizen or alien). Those claims and charges will eventually find their way to rest upon the leaders of the BPAUX -- so I hope the organization has some form of liability insurance...and coverage for directors and officers, lest they find themselves personally holding the bag when the inevitable incident involving a "overly-motivated" member occurs.

Time will tell, but I expect this will go about as far as a previously discussed upstart group -- the U.S. Water Patrol...

Let's put this to rest also, we all understand the personal liability of useing deadly force, and we go to the extream measures to make sure that does not happen. Yes, we do have insurance. But that will never stop someone who is hell bent on taking on any organization.

For the "Rambo" thing, we filter out these people VERY FAST! It is easy after a few hours in camp to see where a person is going and why they have joined, we do one heck of a good job filtering out these people, in 3 years we have had 4 people who we have asked to leav or left on thier own because we were NOT aggrssive enough!

Does this help?

Ken

What type of insurance does the BPAUX have (lines of coverage) -- and who is the insurance carrier? Being in the law enforcement liability insurance industry, I'm very curious to know what company would provide such use -of-force liability coverage to a non-governmental, non-law enforcement organization.

So, the extent of your background screening process is "a few hours in camp to see where a person is going and why they have joined, we do one heck of a good job filtering out these people"?

That's it? Really? Who is screening the "screeners"?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: flyandscuba,

So...how much does one have to pay to be a member of the BPA?

quote:

Originally posted by kdreger:
We do not want a "Official" Affiliation at this point because we want to retain our own control over what we as private citizens do, and we want the public sector to work with the private sector, which at this point seems to be doing just fine..

But thanks for the input.

Excellent. The group wants to misrepresent themselves as a government agency, but of course doesn't want to actually be under the control of someone with actual authority.

quote:

It is NOT intended to confuse the public, we make it VERY CLEAR that we are NOT part of DHS or BP in any area.

Yet, the group uses the name of a government agency and puts symbols on their vessels very reminiscent of those used by government agencies and while claiming to have official permission from DHS to use their symbols. Yeah, right.

quote:

We wear the uniform to make sure that BP knows who we are along with certain ID and special markings now on our vehicles that ONLY BP has access to

See, here we go. On the one hand the claim is that it is not affiliated with the government, but here it is said that they have access to government only markings. And just how do they have access to such stuff?

Just more typical stuff. "See, the government really sort of kinda does sanction us, but just because we're appropriate the name of a law enforcement agency doesn't mean that we're doing anything wrong."

Again, change the name of your group, wear normal civilian clothes, and watch the border 365/24/7 and I'll say more power to you.

flyandscuba-
What type of insurance does the BPAUX have (lines of coverage) -- and who is the insurance carrier? (That is covered by our insurance person, she is a carrier here in San Diego. I do not know all the details, just that we have a lot of coverage, but then again how much is enough. We also have a waiver that states we are not liable for the actions that individuals take on thier own accordance when at musters, and that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by 3 lawyers)
Being in the law enforcement liability insurance industry, I'm very curious to know what company would provide such use -of-force liability coverage to a non-governmental, non-law enforcement organization.(Never said that it covered this, you mis-understood, sorry)

So, the extent of your background screening process is "a few hours in camp to see where a person is going and why they have joined, we do one heck of a good job filtering out these people"?( No, we do a criminal background, some of us have backgrounds in LEO and in the private sector where we are very familar with this, and we do a very detailed vetting on each person and watch them a LOT until we really get to know and trust them, maybe even better than the CG Aux?)

That's it? Really? Who is screening the "screeners"? (Above)

bmwcc-
So...how much does one have to pay to be a member of the BPA? Membership dues start at 50/year this information is posted on the web site also.

Riveraux-
I really don't think that anyone could discuss with you anything, it seems to me that you just cannot be convienced, sorry....guess you will just have to play the wait and see game............good luck.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kdreger,

Riveraux-
On second thought I think I will try to answer your questions afterall, a good challenge is something I like, so here it goes.

Excellent. The group wants to misrepresent themselves as a government agency, but of course doesn't want to actually be under the control of someone with actual authority. ( It was not or has ever been stated that we "Misrepresent any government agency" you said that not us! We make it CLEAR that we as the private sector and operating under a non-profit corp work very hard to help secure America and protedt the borders of this country. When was the last time you did that?)

quote:
It is NOT intended to confuse the public, we make it VERY CLEAR that we are NOT part of DHS or BP in any area. (Which is true)

Yet, the group uses the name of a government agency and puts symbols on their vessels very reminiscent of those used by government agencies and while claiming to have official permission from DHS to use their symbols. Yeah, right.

(Again this is information you state, I will clarify it for YOU, HSPIG the sponsor corporation is authorized to use the DHS LOGO, as I stated a few post back, also HSPIG is authorized to post the DAILY DHS briefing on the HSPIG web site. There are NO symbols on the BPAUX site that represent ANY Government AGENCY! If you find one we will remove it (Challenge))

quote:
We wear the uniform to make sure that BP knows who we are along with certain ID and special markings now on our vehicles that ONLY BP has access to

See, here we go. On the one hand the claim is that it is not affiliated with the government, but here it is said that they have access to government only markings. And just how do they have access to such stuff?

(It is obvious you have NO experience doing any type of border watch operations, when you are at the border, EVERY person, vehicle is a suspect first, and a friendly second, it is just taken for granted that is the way it is. Again like I stated in a previous post our uniforms are for us to be on a level that makes us different and RECOGNIZEABLE to LEO's! Our vehicles have a numbering system, known ONLY to BP from information given to them by us! This arrangement was made at the request of BP to allow them to help identify us! this does not make us affiliated with any official agency, it helps protect us and BP agents in the field! CLEAR? Ever walk up on a unidentified car or truck 200' from the Mexico border at 0130 with its lights off? Probably not, but BP does it every night, and they want to know who is out there for safety reasons)

Just more typical stuff. "See, the government really sort of kinda does sanction us, but just because we're appropriate the name of a law enforcement agency doesn't mean that we're doing anything wrong."

(Wrong again, the name is NOT a law enforcement agency, I guess you would rather call the Coast Guard Aux something like "Guy's on boats", do you see how crazy that would be? Same applies to our organization, name recognition means a lot to every group, and we chose our name accordingly and legally)

Again, change the name of your group, wear normal civilian clothes, and watch the border 365/24/7 and I'll say more power to you.

(so does this rule of yours also apply to the CG AUX or is this just a rule you think that everyone else should adhear to because you want it? And we don't want to be doing this 365/24/7, we have real lives and families and really don't want to be having to do it, BUT we actually choose to do it on our own, and without any pay or reccognition from ANYONE, not even you)

I don't think that this information will ever satisfy your quest to turn a good thing into something that is bad, unless that is you would come over to CA and spend some time with us, but we would have to VET and clear you beforhand, hope there would not be a problem with that?
Ken

KDREGER, Well I guess you found out how this board lures you in. First they start with the questions about your group until they get just enough information to become dangerious. Most of these guys have either quit the CGAUX or were kicked out for one reason or another. So now they have so much time on their hands that they sit here like VULTURES waiting to swoop down on any good idea. Good luck to you and your group, do what you feel is needed. Don't worry about insurance for they BIRDS because they arn't going to join anyway. They will just sit and complain.

quote:

That is covered by our insurance person, she is a carrier here in San Diego. I do not know all the details, just that we have a lot of coverage, but then again how much is enough. We also have a waiver that states we are not liable for the actions that individuals take on thier own accordance when at musters, and that has been gone over with a fine tooth comb by 3 lawyers

Your insurance person is most likely an agent -- not the actual carrier. (She has E&O coverage to protect herself, trust me). As the founding director, you really should know all of the details... The "meat" of a policy comes from the exclusions and endorsements within. You may very well have far lees, if any, actual coverage than you think.

Also, your waiver (that has been looked at by three lawyers) most likley will offer the organization -- and its directors and officers -- little if any protection. It is one of those "feel good things", like the signs at businesses telling you they are not responsible for what happens to your car or its contents while on their property.

Your organization has the "custom" for firearms use during activities, your organization is providing the training opportunitites to the members, you and your members are placing themselves in a position where the need for self defense is far greater than the average citizen licensed for a concealed carry firearm (i.e. you are going out looking for the bad guys). Your members are wearing shirts with emblems resembling a "badge" complete with star in the logo saying BORDER PATROL auxiliary. All of this is approved and sanctioned by the organization's directors and leaders -- again, making you personally the target the attorneys will love.

If the actions of one - or a few - of your members result in a federal case under USC 1983, your organization will be finished. Even if the plantiff is only awarded $1 in damages, the plantiff attorneys are allowed to collect ALL of their expenses and fees (which will be in the millions, trust me).

You mention that you are based in California and that many of your members are from that state. Although the provision exists for a concealed firearm license in CA, virtually zero regular citizens have been issued such. Thus, I assume most of your events where CA-members are armed would be in AZ, NM, and TX -- probably through the use of a non-resident concealed firearm license issued by a state other than California, that has reciprocity with the border states where you conduct operations. The Florida license offers reciprocity in those states and offers a non-resident license that can be obtained by mail. See where this is going?

A California resident member wants to be armed during operations in Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. Little probability of obtaining a California license... therefore, they are coached by BPAUX leadership to obtain a non-resident Florida CWL (or other state's license) for use during operations so they will be covered while looking for the bad guys in neighboring AZ, NM, and TX.

This is not the "average citzen" arming themselves for self defense. BPAUX is equipping the membership to obtain the licenses and firearms training, providing them with offical looking logos on "uniform" attire - complete with the phrase "Border Patrol", and you are send them out on mission "encampments" where their probability of encountering a criminal element is elevated -- thus the potential for employing those firearms for self defense is greatly increased. There is no way that you are going to screen out all potential "bad apples" out of your organization -- someone is out there looking for a conflict or confrontation where they can "show their stuff". It is only a matter of time...

Does your background screening include base-line psychological testing similar to what is used by law enforcement agencies?

As for the use of name Coast Guard Auxiliary by our organization... One very important difference -- our organization is a Congressionally mandated part of the U.S. Coast Guard, and has been since 1939. We do receive funding and support from the USCG. We are a uniformed civilian force-multiplier of a branch of the US government.

Many of the law enforcement agencies I work with (especially Sheriff Departments) have Auxiliaries (sometimes called reserves) that are comprised of non-paid volunteers to augment the sponsoring agency. Many are uniformed and armed. However, they do so by requiring those members to obtain training and certification through law enforcement academies (POST). The Auxiliary members are sworn officers and operate under the authority of the constitutional officer (the Sheriff). The Florida Highway Patrol has an Auxiliary -- also armed and the members are sworn officers. Likewise, the Florida Fish & Wildlife department (old Florida Marine Patrol) has an Auxiliary that is armed and its members are sworn officers. So, the existence of Auxiliaries to assist agencies engaged in law enforcement is a fact.

IF the U.S. Border Patrol developed an Auxiliary -- and the members were trained and became sworn officers under the program I would be in overwhelming support of the organization and its activities. Heck, I would join and offer multiple aircraft for use as aerial observation platforms. As a member of the ALEA, I know just how valuable these tools can be in law enforcement. This, however, is NOT what you seek to do.

Why use the name Border Patrol Auxiliary as if you were an official component of the federal agency (complete with shielded eagle in the logo)? Why not continue to operate under the name of Minuteman Project, etc? There is absolutely no confusion through the use of the name Minuteman Project...now is there?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: flyandscuba,