|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||||||||||
|
Go
|
New
|
Find
|
Notify
|
Tools
|
Reply
|
|
|
Basic Training |
What kind of medical guidelines are there for air observers? I found air crew guidelines and I'd probably be ok, but I have asthma, JRA, and knee problems (mostly corrected by a few surgeries). Would any of these DQ me from AUXAIR?
I love SAR and planes... would love to have the opportunity. |
||
|
We have met the enemy and he is us. Pogo |
It depends on what crew position you hope to attain.
The lowewst is Air Observer, for which there is no medical screening. However, at least in D7 you have to be able to swim 3 laps in a pool with a flight suit and uninflated PFD. At the end of the 3rd lap you have to be able to climb into a life raft. Unless you are the first one to the raft - you get assisted by the person already in the raft. Usually you end up with a minor case of 'raft burn' on your face. Pilots are required to have a current FAA medical. The middle position Air Crew must either have an FAA Medical or get the ANSC 7042 Air Crew Medical formed signed off. My doc signed off his part and sent me off to vision and hearing specialists for the other sign-offs. Air Crew and pilots must also swim, at least in D7. There is also egress training but that shouldn't present any physical problems. While we are on the subject of Air and Forms, take a look at the AIR CREW APPLICATION FORM and ANSC 7015 Pilot/Air Crew Qualification Since,
those 2 forms may not be used in all districts but the general requirements and info looked for will be the same. And giving FW her opening - the air program requires a PSI determination at the DO (direct operations) level - aka the ankle grabber. |
|||
|
Member |
Similar requirements exist in D8 (portions of your state are in D8 and D9). We also have the 75 yard swim and use of floatation devices, but our life rafts are the single-man variety (we carry one for each person on the aircraft). The use of flightsuits and PFDs for the swim have been optional during our last few annual training sessions, but I encourage all to perform the training drills in the condition that you would be on a mission (wearing a flight suit and PFD/survival vest).
As FL indicated, there is no medical screen requirement at the Observer level. However, you must honestly evaluate your ability to egress an aircraft (observers are usually assigned a rear seat) in the event of a forced water landing or other incident. Inability to egress under your own power and without assistance places yourself and the rest of your crew at risk in the event of an emergency requiring rapid egress from the aircraft. The pilot-in-command retains the responsibility and ability to determine who may comprise the crew for a specific mission. The best thing to do would be to ask your air facility owner(s) in your area to take a tour of their aircraft on the ground. Sit in the seats most likely for use as an Observer and determine for yourself what your egress limitations might be -- understanding that differences exist between make and model of aircraft. I'd be open for any Observer-candidate to do that with my aircraft. |
|||
|
|
suspended Mainedawg Moderator Hot TopicS |
I think you meant to say: As FL indicated, there is no medical screen requirement at the Observer level. However, you must honestly evaluate your ability to egress an aircraft (observers are usually assigned a rear seat) in the unlikely event of a forced water landing or other incident. |
|||
|
|
Member |
No, I meant it as written. No matter the probability of a forced water landing -- you should be capable to adequately and rapidly egress the aircraft.
One hopes that such an event is unlikely, but when operating outside of gliding distance to land -- it is a possibility. Thus, the reason for wearing PFD/survival vests at all times while on orders and the presence of life rafts for all persons on board. My set-ups even include HEED bottles in each vest as an added resource, as the aircraft will most likely come to rest nose-down or even upside down following a forced water landing. Whether flying over water or land, no matter how confident I am about my aircraft -- I remain aware of my options at any given time should that big wind maker up front cease to operate... |
|||
|
|
Basic Training |
Thank you for your replies. That helps a lot. I've been working on the knee- we're getting there- and I've been swimming all my life. I can swim equally well just using my arms if my knee gets sore. However, I'm not sure what a hard water landing would do for my knee.
I'll keep looking into. Thank you again for your help  |
|||
|
|
Member |
No telling what it would do to people with two good knees...or their head...or their chest, either.
Just be aware that egressing an aircraft can be a little more challenging than climbing in your car or SUV -- given the particular design and cockpit layout. You may have found them -- but here a couple of websites with more information about the AUXAIR program: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/cg3/cg3pcx/missions/aviation-op-branch.asp http://www.auxodept.org/airoperations.htm |
|||
|
|
Basic Training |
I had only found one of those. Thank you. Maybe once I get the knee back in good shape, I'd do better in a crash. How does one train for that? Do they crash a plane and evaluate how fast you get out or whether you get out at all? |
|||
|
|
Member |
They stick you in a seat, buckle you in, and turn the thing upside down....
It was fun. |
|||
|
|
Member |
The device used by some AIRSTAs is called the SWET chair as illustrated here:
 |
|||
|
|
We have met the enemy and he is us. Pogo |
Just so everyone is clear - the device shown is an option. It is not required by Nat Aux policy. I don't know of it ever being used by AuxAir Miami.
The required egress training is done using an Auxie aircraft sitting on the tarmac. The pilot explains how the egress works - ie who gets and holds the liferaft, who gets and holds the goody bag and the order of exit. It isn't even required to practice the egress although that is usually done. |
|||
|
|
Member |
It's fun...
|
|||
|
|
Member |
Unfortunately, not all AUXAIR personnel practice true egress training. Such practices only place themselves and their fellow crew at potential risk. Sitting on a tarmac provides absolutely no experience of disorientation. The SWET chair is the best they can do with what's available in a typical swimming pool. True water egress training involves the use of "dunkers" such as the 9D5 provided at the water survival training schools. I'm fortunate to have been offered and completed this training. Until you've experienced water egress while being blindfolded and required to make it out a main cabin door of the 9D5 after having been turned upside down up to 180 degrees -- you've had no real egress training... Chances are, you'll never get to any "goodie bag" in the aircraft. If it's not on your back at the time of the incident -- you'll most likely not have acess to it. Likewise, those who choose to store their liferafts and gear in the baggage compartment will find themselves in want when they need it the most. Most aircraft will end up in a nose down attitude, with the cabin partially flooded almost immediately -- if not totally "turtled" over onto it's back...quite a difference than sitting in an aircraft on the ramp. Persons flying on my aircraft while on orders wear the PFD/survival vest at all times -- no exceptions. In addition, each seating position has it's own single-person life raft. |
|||
|
|
Member |
Well, I should be able to get out the N'awlins Air Show in a couple of weeks. Hopefully the weather will be alittle cooler than it has been during the last few I've been too.
The egress trainer was fun at NASJRB NOLA... I do think the swim should be 75 yards without a PFD though.... that one lady who sat and dog paddled for 45 minutes was a bit much. |
|||
|
|
We have met the enemy and he is us. Pogo |
In addition, each seating position has it's own single-person life raft.
They do? That is news to me and I flew on several Aux aircraft over several years and not once did any pilot mention any liferaft but the CG provided one. Unless you are thinking of the seat cushion, which no pilot I flew with mentioned as a life raft or even as any kind of PFD/life raft.
I believe Nat policy (your mileage and district may vary) is the PFD must only be worn when over water. Chances are, you'll never get to any "goodie bag" in the aircraft. I don't know why you say that. We practiced that. I think AuxAir states you have 1 to 3 minutes, at normal Aux Air altitude from the onset of a 'problem' to crash. I usually flew in 3 row Cessena (I think a 182), with only 4 people aboard.. The left rear observer/crew grabbed the life raft from the third row right seat and passed it to the front 'right seat' who stowed it between his legs. The right rear observer grabbed the goody bag from the third left seat and held on to it. We could do that in under a minute. Other then the pilot the busiest guy in the plane is the front 'right seat' who has to stow the life raft, open and block the door and call Mayday on the Marine radio (after consulting the GPS for lat/lon) - all in 1 to 3 minutes. BTW - out of curiosity - in a four person aircraft what is your exit order? I think we can agree that it is 'right seat' then the pilot. We always had fun discussions over whether the right or left rear seat observer went first. There is no policy on the matter. I always thought the left rear should go first as he had a cleaner shot at the door and therefore could exit faster then the right seat. |
|||
|
|
Member |
Yes, the AIRSTA provides us (CG provided) with a single-man liferaft for each crew seat position. They are contained in a very small package, are light-weight, and the same as the one available here:
http://www.sportys.com/acb/showdetl.cfm?&Product_ID=10967&DID=19 Having multiple rafts on board provides an added benefit of redundancy. Three persons could effectively cling to one of these single-man rafts if necessary. For those flying with a single, 4-man raft -- lose it or have it fail and your are in a fine spot...not wearing your PFD at the time? -- oh well... The PFDs in use in our area are a combination PFD/survival vest. Each vest is equipped with an EPIRB, signal mirror, flares, whistle, knife, space blanket, chem lights, and in the case of my crew -- a HEED (mini scuba tank good for 30-40 breaths at the surface). The PFD/survival vest can be found here: http://www.lifesavingsystems.com/product_pages/inflatable2_3.htm All AUXAIR missions have the potential to involve extended flight over water (ever been diverted to a SAR case?). Therefore, the PFD/Survival vests are worn at all times. In my case, it is rare that an AUXAIR mission doesn't involve flight over water...RWAIs are the only thing that come to mind. You practiced retrieving a goodie bag while sitting on the tarmac -- not after coming to a sudden and most likely violent stop in the water (possibly upside down with water in the cabin) -- where everything not secure in the cockpit, or on your physical person, has become a missle and ended up in who knows where of a position. If you think you have 1-3 minutes of "free time" while suffering an engine failure at 300-500 feet over water during a SAR for a PIW (not sure what your definition of a "normal" AUXAIR altitude might be) I guess keeping convincing yourself of that. Fortunately, I've never experienced a forced water landing event. But some of my flying comrades from my helicopter days did (some survived and others did not). The common denominator in the debriefs was that you only left the aircraft with what was physically on your person at the time of the incident. The dunker training was enough of an experience to convince me of the value of constant wear/use of provided personal protective equipment. The active duty crews wear such equipment on all flights for similar reasons -- we should do likewise.
The exit order will be contingent upon who is conscious and/or the extent of injuries. However, in a perfect scenario -- where everyone is in good shape and eveyrthing is working (kind like sitting on the tarmac) -- in my aircraft there are two doors. The crewman sitting in the co-pilot seat can exit out his/her own door. At the same time, the rear seat observer can exit out of the pilot-side door as I sit far forward when flying. He/she also has the option of following the right seat crewman out of the right door. I plan to exit the aircraft last. If things don't go as planned, I remind my crew to remember the windows as an option -- especially in the rear seat -- as the rear side windows and rear windows will pop out with moderate force. Now, I'm curious -- would you be resistant to wearing a PFD/survival vest on all missions? If so -- why? |
|||
|
|
We have met the enemy and he is us. Pogo |
Yes, the AIRSTA provides us (CG provided) with a single-man liferaft for each crew seat position.
OK. We have a YM&DMV situation. AuxAir7 or maybe just AirSta Miami only supply the large life raft. The PFDs in use in our area are a combination PFD/survival vest. We just got standard non-auto inflatable PFDs. Nothing fancy about them. Each pilot got 4 - assuming he had a 4 seat (or more) plane. You practiced retrieving a goodie bag while sitting on the tarmac -- not after coming to a sudden and most likely violent stop in the water Nat and D7 policy is that you retrieve and secure the raft and goody bag before the plane hits the water. You practiced retrieving a goodie bag while sitting on the tarmac -- not after coming to a sudden and most likely violent stop in the water That is why my prime pilot always insisted that anything not on our person be stowed below the top of the seats - preferably on the floor. If you think you have 1-3 minutes of "free time" while suffering an engine failure at 300-500 feet over water during a SAR for a PIW (not sure what your definition of a "normal" AUXAIR altitude might be) A couple of items here. Those aren't my numbers or defintions. The 1 to 3 minutes comes from several lectures from AuxAir7 and it may be in the training manuals. I didn't make the number up. "Normal" AuxAir altitude is 500'-2000'. I think that is written into the manuals. My prime pilot tended to stay in the 1000'-2000' altitude range while transiting to the mission area. Normal SAR search altitude was 500'-1000'. I'm not a pilot but going below 500' without a really good reason is a violation of the FAR (I think that is the acronym). In the Aux only Aircraft Commanders have authority to go below 500'. My prime pilot might dip below 500' to verify a sighting but then pop back up over 500'. I think he did that 2 or 3 times in all the flights I made with him. We flew several SARs with the CG. The CG helos were at 500', we were at 1500' and the C-130 (I think that was what the Big Guy was) was over us by 1000'. Even the CG generally will not break the 500' barrier until they absolutely need to. In the Bad Old Days of AuxAir7, wave skimming was a fairly common practice - but it is now barred. I remind my crew to remember the windows as an option The only pop out window in the aircraft I flew in most was the pilot's. He said he wouldn't even try to use it unless he absolutely had to. His prime exit was out the door after the Right Seat exited. Now, I'm curious -- would you be resistant to wearing a PFD/survival vest on all missions? If so -- why? Resistent no but we didn't wear them when flying overland from our home airport to Opa Locka for training. We didn't wear them flying from our home airport to St Pete for training and we weren't overflying the Big "O". Even if we weren't wearing them, they were stowed in the rear seat (not baggage) so the rear seat observers could reach them if we got diverted to a SAR case. That happened once. We also sometimes remove them on the flight home once we were 'feet dry' and heading to another airport further inland for gas. Small planes, 500' altitude, SE Florida heat in August and a PFD can get uncomfortable really fast. And at that point in the flight the PFD was no longer needed. We only took them off if the pilot told us we could and he removed his first. |
|||
|
|
Member |
Secure how? If you think holding on to them guarantees "security" -- again, keep convincing yourself.
Not saying you made the numbers up -- but search altitudes are dependant upon the environmental conditions and the target object. A search for a PIW performed at 300' can be a valid and common altitude. There is no violation of an FAR for flying below 500' over sparsely / unpopulated areas (such as open water). You are only required to maintain 500' separation from people, vessels or property -- either horizontally or vertically. If a pilot wants to fly over the water (or sparsely populated land) at 50' there is no FAR violation -- a very stupid practice yes, but no violation. Supporting reference: FAR 91.119, Minimum safe altitudes The regulation states, first of all, that except for landing and takeoff, altitudes must be high enough to allow an emergency landing without creating a hazard to people or property on the ground. Then it covers congested areas, such as open-air assemblies, cities, towns, or settlements, where pilots must stay 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within 2,000 feet of the aircraft. In uncongested areas, pilots may descend to 500 feet, and they may go lower in sparsely populated areas if the aircraft remains 500 feet from people, vessels, vehicles, or structures.
Citation of a current Auxiliary reference requested...
Again, it depends upon what you are searching for... Here, when multiple aviation assets are in the same search area the HH-65s are typically at 300', and the HU-25s and AUXAIR are at 500' and 700' interchangably -- sometimes the Falcon is at the higher altitude and sometimes AUXAIR. We communicate on an air-to-air frequency (usually 123.45) and all use the same barometric pressure for the altimeter setting to assure everyone is working with the same values.
A search pattern at 300' would not be considered "wave skimming". No one present in D8CR AUXAIR engages in wave skimming or other undesirable "sport flying" activities to my knowledge. You seem to want to quibble over 300' versus 500' -- the glide time and distance difference in the event of an engine failure over water will be extremely small. In either case, you will get wet and most likely leave the aircraft with what is attached to your body.
Doors are great primary exits -- no question. All aircraft windows in typical non-pressurized general aviation aircraft will pop out if enough force is applied. Not necessary for "special" windows -- we're only talking about 1/4" of plexiglas held in by an adhesive or rubber bead...
As I expected, absolutely no benefit to fly without the PFD -- but potential benefit to wear them, even when their use wasn't anticipated. It sounds like you were using the marine-grade SOSpenders type device (no pockets for survival gear) and not one designed for aviation use. In our case, all survival items are contained in the PFD/survival vests (triple redundant -- three complete sets in three crew vests) -- and there is no "goodie bag" to worry about. When you leave the aircraft, everything you might need is on your person.
The long-sleeve NOMEX is warm on it's own -- adding a PFD/survival vest with a mesh back will add little additional discomfort. But unfortunately percieved comfort supercedes safety -- a common peril to the unexpected. Less of an air crew diligence and more of a passenger mentality...too bad. (A fault I will place on your PIC -- as you as his crew were only following his example) Unfortunately in some it can lead to other poor risk management habits such as inconsistent use of checklists, pre-flights, and engine run-ups before every take-off. Hopefully, those "inconveniences" weren't practiced as well. BTW, the August heat and humidity here is just as uncomfortable. If you're truly making a flight over land only -- no reason to remain at 500' -- climb to a higher altitude for both safety and cooler temperatures. I'd be interested to know if practices and equipment remain the same in D7 now -- as was the case when you were aloft with them in the past. |
|||
|
