I have done a lot of night Helo Opps as the saftey boat 6 miles off the coast in the dark with 2-3 seas.

I'm sure you had a ball doing that but you really should check the operational guidelines for the Aux - you may have been well over the limit.

You can tell real fast who has the skills and who needs more training.

I think there is a disconnect between your expectations and the reality of the BCQP. Check the "Conditions" statement in the task books for all the underway tasks. Almost all of them (if not all of them) specify the task is to be completed in calm seas. Anything more then that and the QE should be calling off the check ride. That is the reality of Aux life - calm seas. So don't expect coxswains or crew to be doing night ops in 2 to 3 foot seas when that is well in excess of the qualification standard.

Sounds like the inside of the bay...just add fog.

--M

quote:

Originally posted by FL51D7:
I think there is a disconnect between your expectations and the reality of the BCQP. Check the "Conditions" statement in the task books for all the underway tasks. Almost all of them (if not all of them) specify the task is to be completed in calm seas. Anything more then that and the QE should be calling off the check ride. That is the reality of Aux life - calm seas. So don't expect coxswains or crew to be doing night ops in 2 to 3 foot seas when that is well in excess of the qualification standard.

Hal

Down East 2-3ft is flat calm! And anything over 1/4 NM is clear visibility.


We can infer from the OP's policy manual that a facility less than 30ft in length shouldn't be operating in over 4ft seas as there is no fatigue standard given. However we also note that for a Facility in excess of 30ft they are only limited to 6hrs in seas greater than 4ft but less than heavy weather.

The following are the 'condition' definitions from the front of the Coxswain Qualification Guide.

quote:

1.B.2.d. Conditions

Describes the environment and physical circumstances in which the task must be performed. Any tools or special equipment needed for completion of the task are listed here. The following terms are used in the Conditions and Standards sections of the tasks:
Boat Operations
Slow: Underway and moving ahead at clutch speed or slower.
Underway: Not tied to a pier or float and not anchored or moored.

Visibility
Restricted: Visibility less than ¼ mile.
Clear: All other states of visibility.

Sea Conditions
Calm: Waves less than 1 foot.
Moderate: Waves 1 to 4 feet.
Heavy: Waves 4 feet and over.

Here are a few of the Condition statements from some of the coxswain tasks.

Task COX-03-05-AUX Get The Boat Away From The Dock
Performed at the dock in calm sea and wind conditions.

Task COX-03-07-AUX
Maneuver A Boat In A Narrow Channel Or In A River
Performed underway on a facility, during daylight, in good weather and calm seas conditions.

Task COX-03-08-AUX
Maneuver The Boat Alongside Another Boat With No Way On
Performed while underway on a facility in calm sea conditions.

Task COX-03-9-AUX
Moor The Boat To A Dock
Performed underway on a facility in calm wind and sea conditions.

Task COX-03-10-AUX
Anchor The Boat
Performed underway on a facility in calm wind and sea conditions during daylight.

The next tasks allows some heavier weather then the above.

Task COX-05-02-AUX
Obtain A Visual Fix
Performed underway in fair weather, in calm, or moderate seas.

Let's look at some SAR specific tasks.

Task COX-06-09-AUX
Execute A Search Pattern
Performed underway in calm to moderate weather.

Task COX-07-01-AUX
Determine The Approach To An Object And Station Keep
Performed underway in calm to moderate conditions.

Task COX-05-05-AUX
Pilot A Boat Using Dead Reckoning Techniques
Performed underway on a facility during daylight, in calm to moderate weather conditions

Task COX-07-02-AUX
Recover A Person From the Water Using The Direct Pick-Up Method
Performed underway during daylight in calm to moderate seas.

Task COX-07-03-AUX
Approach a Burning Boat and Recover Personnel

Performed underway during daylight in fair weather conditions. The distressed boat will simulate having a fire onboard.

Task COX-08-04-AUX
Make Preparations For Taking A Vessel In Tow
Performed at any time underway in calm conditions.

Task COX-08-05-AUX
Take A Vessel In Stern Tow
Performed underway in calm to moderate weather conditions

Task COX-08-06-AUX
Use A Shackle Or Kicker/Skiff Hook Assembly Connection To Take A Vessel In Stern Tow
Performed underway in calm weather conditions

Task COX-08-07-AUX
Take A Boat In Alongside Tow
Performed underway in calm weather.

OK - so almost all the SAR task call for either calm weather or in a few cases you can go as high as moderate weather.

Now let us look at the conditions for the night tasks.

Task COX-09-04-AUX
Perform a Night Navigation and Piloting Exercise
Performed at the dock and underway in calm conditions on a clear night.

How about the check ride itself?

Task COX-09-06-AUX
Underway Check Ride
Performed underway on an Auxiliary Facility in calm sea conditions.

It looks like helo ops have been removed from the version of the CX Qual Guide that is on the ChDirAux site.

Given the above testing and qualification conditions, it is a bit unrealistic to state that a coxswain or crew who couldn't handle night helo ops, 6 miles off-shore in 2 to 3 foot seas needs more training when those conditions and the mission itself (helo ops) are in excess of the qualification standard. And that is one of the big problems with the BCQP and this whole idea that the 'old guys' cannot do it. The Aux BCQP basically turns out fair weather coxswains and crew. You are not supposed to be out in heavy weather. You are not supposed to be out in limited visibility. And a good OIC knows that and that could be the very legitimate reason the Aux isn't being called more. The conditions of the distress case exceed the limits imposed on the Aux.

And given those limitations, then one should question as EngelJ did - why the Aux insists on advertising the Aux and the BCQP with boats leaping out of the water in big waves and running at top speed - when the Aux isn't supposed to be doing that.

quote:

Originally posted by 0130303:

quote:

Originally posted by 17798559:
QUESTION TO ALL
When was the last time a Commodore, Rear Como or Division Captain asked any of you for your opinions on problems or solutions either informaly or in a forum?

Captain a little over a week, Rear Como slightly longer and Dist. Como less than a year(Dec. IIRC).

Now if the DCP, RCO, Como doesn't know you well, you are not going to get asked. So the question is also how many functions/meetings do you attend with these people?

Yeah, but yer also yer flotillas FC, yer flotillas OPS guy, and yer div OPS guy,so communication between you and those "upstairs" would be expected.

"Back in the day" when I wasn't a "disgruntled ex-member" (which is FLY N SCUBAs definition of anyone no longer in the AUX that says ANYTHING contrary about the AUX), I only attended one all hands division meeting. Held at the same place my flots meetings were, USCGSTA Point Allerton. In the training room.

Place was packed to standing room only and it quickly degenerated into a "I've been in the AUX longer than you therefore I know more about boating than you do" pissing contest between all the 20+ year members. I sat in the corner and kept my mouth shut, but I was sitting right beside one of the "20 plusers" that; aside from being ona the best coxswain/boat drivers I've ever come up against, was also retired USCG and a former harbormaster of the town we were in (Hull Ma)and knew the local waters better than anybody I've ever met.

And he was the recipient of the "rock throwing pissers" bad attitude and negativity. I guess he's somewhat ofa "rogue" coxswain as he don't run his OPFAC like he's Capt Bligh and ya actually did things like TRAIN when yer out ona patrol instead of sitting watching the scenery.

For 3 years I spent 20 hours a week 5 months of the year patrolling with him, and; as I'm a "retired" marine mechanic, also assumed the duty of marine engineer for his OPFAC.

I was ABSOLUTELY SHOCKED at the way these people hissed and threw spears at everybody exuding negativity and "bad karma". And these were members that collectively had ALOT of "Former" and "Immediate Past" attached to them, all the way up to DIST level, one even being a former DCO.

There was NO exchange of information, NO "round table" discussion of anything, NO nothing but a bunch of "I've been in the AUX longer than you's so my opinion means more", ANYBODY in the AUX experienced that???

Sorry, you have people frocked with titles like Commodore, Captain, Commander(FC), with uniforms with stars and bars on them , that are told that they are "leaders", yet there is no OFFICIAL consequence or repercussion to their bad performance.

When I was a lowly "bottom of the food chain" E-4 in the USCG I had people that worked under me and I was responsible for. And one of my major duties as that "leader" was to make sure that what they wanted communicated "up the ladder" got up there, and what was communicated from "up the ladder" down to me and the people that worked under me got to them.

If they had a gripe, it was to be put in writing to me, I in turn added what I knew of the issue with my opinion and what ( if any) remedial action I had taken or attempted, add whether I concured or disgreed with whatever the issue or problem was, and forward it up to the person over me. Who in turn did the same thing and forwarded to the person over them. And so on and so forth to the person in charge, usually my units OinC.

The OinC in turn would make his decision or do whatever he could about it, and the whole process was reversed. Thru everybody, all the way back down to the person that started the whole thing. Along the way there would usually be some one-on-one discussion, maybe a little group meeting, The OinC would meet with the XO,EO,OD, maybe we'd even have an all hands meeting about it.

And everybody, including the person that initially filed the gripe, was doing what they did in accordance with their job description. It was part of the responsibility we shared.

NONE of that(that I ever saw) exsisted ANYWHERE in the AUX.

I had an issue in the AUX, and it was an issue that the "chain" needed to be informed about and take action. I went and looked in the appropriate manual(s), followed what it said ta do, and filed the appropriate report. In accordance with "the manual". And NOBODY "above me" did ANYTHING, and I was eventually told by my FC(now div capt) to "forget about it for the good of the Auxiliary".

WHY did those "above me" get away with doing nothing?? Simply because they could, there is NO adverse action or repercussion if they simply chose to just not do anything with the responsibility they were entrusted with.

So, seeing as those "up the ladder" don't have to listen to or do anything if they don't want to, how can you POSSIBLY expect change out of that type of organization???-JRC

quote:

Originally posted by FL51D7:
The following are the 'condition' definitions from the front of the Coxswain Qualification Guide.

Which describe the conditions under which we train and the conditions under which the examination (checkride) is to be given.
during daylight, in good weather and calm seas conditions.

quote:

The Aux BCQP basically turns out fair weather coxswains and crew. You are not supposed to be out in heavy weather. You are not supposed to be out in limited visibility. And a good OIC knows that and that could be the very legitimate reason the Aux isn't being called more. The conditions of the distress case exceed the limits imposed on the Aux.

Hal

That is perhaps part of the reason why an OD would not send "just any" AUX facility on a given mission. The facility and crew would need to be more familiar to the OD and have given some reason for the OD to believe them competent for the particular mission before being given it.

Some facilities and crews will train to a higher standard than the minimums you describe. And they might also spend conciderably more time training in and around the Glod side facilities. And when some task needs to be done, big or small, the Cell Phone on that facility is more likely to ring than any other aux vessel in the area.

Some facilities and crews will train to a higher standard than the minimums you describe.

An arguement could be made and probably would be made by DOJ/DOL in the event of an accident that those aren't minimums but maximums. Nothing in the manuals authorizes Auxies to train to a higher standard then that. There are many cautions thruout the several manuals that Auxies aren't to exceed their training and qualifications.

And when some task needs to be done, big or small, the Cell Phone on that facility is more likely to ring than any other aux vessel in the area.

Right up to the point when that hard charging coxswain or crew, in exceeding training and/or operational policy and doctrine do something that gets the OIC in trouble. Then the whole local Aux will suffer for the 'hot dog' crew.

I know it is a lot of fun but the Aux doesn't have nor is it supposed to have 'high speed, low drag' sailors. It is fair weather sailing the whole time for the Aux - despite the misleading ads to the contrary.

quote:

Another alternative for voicing your opinions is to avail yourself of the chain of leadership.

Ha, ha - now that is funny. If you are suggesting that a reasonable suggestion made by a member and started up through the chain of leadership will ever reach any level where it will be considered or where action may occur... well I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale and some nice land in Florida. That simply does not work.

Yeah... I feel ya there. There was an incorrect response put on the AUXKB so I emailed them about correcting it along with the message that stipulated what AP members can and can't do.

I was told to send it up through my Chain of Leadership. I then went up through the Training Department to get opinions backing the correction, and I sent those forward. I got a reply back saying that the answer came from some CG number and that was it. I asked for their email address so I could work with them. Never got another response back.... Gotta love it.

quote:

Originally posted by FL51D7:
Right up to the point when that hard charging coxswain or crew, in exceeding training and/or operational policy and doctrine do something that gets the OIC in trouble. Then the whole local Aux will suffer for the 'hot dog' crew.

Exceeding the Operations Policy Manual is very different from exceeding the "Conditions" Listed in a Qualification Guide. I see nothing in the Policy Manual that prevents the "Hot Dog Crew" from going over and above their initial traininig qualification to achieve the Excelence "E" award.

quote:

I know it is a lot of fun but the Aux doesn't have nor is it supposed to have 'high speed, low drag' sailors. It is fair weather sailing the whole time for the Aux - despite the misleading ads to the contrary.

Guess I missed the "Fair Weather only" part of the OP's Policy Manual. I thought the restriction was on "Heavy Weather" and "Surf".

Our latest wannabee rogue coxswain screwed things up between the Aux and the Gold side. The Aux "leaders" refused to rein him in and left it to the Gold side. For the time being, the warm, fuzzy feeling is gone just like the wannabee coxswain.

I see nothing in the Policy Manual that prevents the "Hot Dog Crew" from going over and above their initial traininig qualification to achieve the Excelence "E" award.

OK that explains it. You weren't aware that the "E" Ribbon is for performing the tasks in a highly proficient manner but without exceeding the conditions as described in the manuals.

Let me correct that oversight for you. The reference is to COMDTINST 16794.4: COAST GUARD AUXILIARY OPERATIONAL EXCELLENCE PROGRAM. That is a Commandant Instruction (COMDTINST) issued 21 Aug 2003 and it established the program. As a COMDTINST it falls under the

quote:

So it is written, so it shall be done

rules.

Right there in the references section is this:

quote:

4. REFERENCES.

a. Where applicable, Auxiliary Operational Excellence Program tasks shall be performed as described in the Boat Crew Seamanship Manual, COMDTINST M16114.5 (series).

b. Auxiliary Operational Excellence Program annual currency tasks shall be performed as per the Auxiliary Boat Crew Training Manual, COMDTINST M16794.51 (series).

c. All tasks shall be performed with safety in mind. Boat crews are expected to adhere to the principles of risk management and team coordination as described in the Boat.

d. Crew Seamanship Manual, COMDTINST M16114.5 (series).

Right there in black & white is the rule that "E" tasks must be performed per the manuals, which includes the "conditions" clauses. So you see, there is no permission, not even for the "E" ribbon to exceed the Conditions as set forth in the manuals.

There is no permission to go out in marginal weather, sea and/or visibility conditions for any reason - not even the "E" ribbon.

Violating the known "conditions" statements should be considered a safety violation and here is what the COMDTINST says about that during the "E" Ribbon eval:

quote:

Any safety violation will void the entire testing evolution and the team must re-test.

So we are back to the fact that there is no permission anywhere to exceed the training requirements in the manuals - not even for the "E" ribbon. No 'high speed, low drag' stuff just nice 'fair weather sailing' and observe and report.

Regarding the current coxswain quals:I was mentoring a coxswain candidate who finally gave it up as he could not rack up the needed hours due to his work requirements. He was so demoralized that he even let his crew quals lapse. This hue and cry for "younger" members, must take into consideration that they do not have the discretionary time that retired people do. Perhaps some adjustment is needed on the required hours.

quote:

Originally posted by Ancora:
Regarding the current coxswain quals:I was mentoring a coxswain candidate who finally gave it up as he could not rack up the needed hours due to his work requirements.

You mean the 28hours underway as Crew? There is no time limit on it. So I guess I don't understand your comment.

Hal

Having carefully concidered your comments and reviewing several manuals. I must conclude that you are in error.

quote:

M16794.52
PURPOSE. This Guide establishes minimum performance standards for qualification as an
Auxiliary crew member on a Coast Guard Auxiliary vessel facility.

Training is to be conducted in accordance with the Boat Crew Seamanship Manual M16114.5C. And Policy for Operations is set in the Operations Policy Manual M_16798_3E.

The Certification Guides are at odds with the policy manual. Endurasnce limits are defined as less than 4ft, more than 4ft, Heavy Weather and Surf. With the later always not allowed for Aux and non standard boats.

CIM_16114_28.pdf defines Heavy Weather for non-standard boats consistently with the Op's Policy Manual as

quote:

Heavy Weather is determined to exist for non-standard boats when the National Weather Service has issued a small craft warning. A small craft warning is defined as when sustained winds are in excess of 21 knots or seas are seven feet or greater.

You will also find references in Chapter 2 of the Seamanship manual referenceing AUX operations during Heavy Weather. It appears clear to me that the sea state numbers you give are intended solely for use during the Certification Checkride. And that actual operational missions will be goverened by the Policy Manual. And of course Risk assesment.


On edit will add in response to the Fair Weather comments this quote from Auxiliary Boat Crew Training Manual M16794.51

quote:

Auxiliarists are trained to a uniform national standard of seamanship and safety. Safety patrol crews are trained to:
• Operate their boats safely and confidently in moderate weather conditions

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 0130303,

I was referring to the amount of time it takes to complete the coxswain program. It took me a year to make coxswain but that was eighteen years ago when it was somewhat easier. Back then we used to have "telephone" coxswains who made coxswain by picking up the phone and calling the right person. There was a standing joke going around about OPEX: "Go to OPEX for crew, and come back a coxswain." Times, they are achangin'.

To FL51D7
2-3 seas
This is moderate weather conditions for Corpus Christi TX. Most days the wind is 15-20 MPH.
We train in it all the time, night and day.
We have boats that are made for it. We never push ourselfs to the point of being unsafe.
One of our cowswains is 85 and he is great to have onbourd. I am the young member at 46. We think 2-3 seas is a good day/night.

Operate their boats safely and confidently in moderate weather conditions

That certainly knocks all Heavy Weather activity out of the box.

Back then we used to ave "telephone" coxswains who made coxswain by picking up the phone and calling the right person.

It still happens. GimpyCoxn almost got thrown out of the Aux for reporting just that. Neither the Gold nor Silver side seemed to have a problem with a guy in a full leg cast getting certified as a PWO when he couldn't even get on the thing. Then there was the requal of the coxswain in the nursing home. Gimpy reported that and almost got thrown out again. The others, well they are QEs and QE coordinators to this day.

We think 2-3 seas is a good day/night.

I was out on patrol on the ICW as a crewman when a squall line came thru. Since there was no lightning and the 'seas' were only 2-3 feet we stayed out and had a ball. Then we did a position report and the CG ordered us off the water. They had already called in all their boats 1/2 hour earlier.

But none of that changes the rules and conditions in the manuals.

quote:

Originally posted by Ancora:
I was referring to the amount of time it takes to complete the coxswain program. It took me a year to make coxswain but that was eighteen years ago when it was somewhat easier.

There ya go. Shattering my image of all the senior coxswains. That you all Qualified Splicing Double Braided Line while Leading a Multi-Unit Search in 7-12ft seas. ;^)

quote:

Originally posted by ENGELJ:
I would ask rather, "how many functions/meetings do they attend with us"? They are the leaders, they are supposed to reach out to us.

As the level rises and there are more and more bilge mice under you. Then it becomes more difficult to keep in contact with all of them. Locally DCP/VCP rotate attendance at the various flotilla meetings. RCO rotates around the Sector Division Meetings, and DCO, VCO rotate around the District Division meetings. Then there are 12 Division Changes of Watch, plus two conferences (including Dist COW). She also has been real good about attending the AUX Service at Wakes.

Yes it would be nice to have the DCO show up at the local flotilla meeting. It would also be nice for Sen. Kerry and Kennedy to call me up and get my opinion on a few other things as well. Before I critisise the District Bridge for this though I would like to concider what their calendar already looks like.