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Military.com Forums Military History Other Conflicts Little Bighorn Immediate Aftermath ...|
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I've read a number of books on the battle at the Little Bighorn, but I'm looking for one that offers more details concerning the scene immediately after the battle. Where and when the bodies were found, who fell next to whom, the burial processes, condition of the fallen things like that. I know they have the official records somewhere but are there any books out there that might offer more than just the condition of Custer alone? I've read countless overviews of the battle but can't find much text on the direct aftermath. Thanks,
This message has been edited. Last edited by: E_Rommel44, |
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Basic Training |
Two books you want to look for (may be hard to find). Custer Battle Casualties I & II. Author is Richard Hardoff. There is an organization called Little BigHorn Associates devoted to studying the battle. They have a web site, don't go on it much but I am a member. You can probably pick up some info there. Other books if you haven't read them to start with Custer Myth by W A Graham and Son of the Morning Star by Evan Connell.
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Basic Training |
Then I'd try to get the two Hardoff books I mentioned. All those things you mentioned are covered.
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Moderator Military History "Anytime, baby!"  |
I only have three books at the present which discuss Little Bighorn in any capacity..and then they discuss it from the Indian point of view (Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, The Fighting Cheyenne, and The Journey Of Crazy Horse), but there's nothing in them concerning the immediate aftermath of the battle. There has been a show on cable (can't remember which channel but I think it might be the History Channel) about historians and archeologists excavating the battlefield several years ago and reconstructing it using computer graphics. I found it a fascinating program, especially the uncovering of hundreds of cartridges and personal effects from all over the hilltop.
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"Hits Count" |
This whole subject, the IWP (Indian Wars Period) is a very deep and complicated subject… But one which anyone can spend a lifetime immersing themselves in. I have had the pleasure and honor to help two of my fellow Army Veterans conduct the “Army Staff Ride Program” using the Battle of the Rosebud,(17 Jun 1876) and the follow on Battle of the Little Big Horn as the subject matter. Yes, I have rode both pieces of dirt (Very Hollowed Ground) Many times over the last ten years (Got pictures to prove it) and can give anyone good guidance on what to read. I have a good small library on the subject. And I have also ridden in several of the Crow Indian Reenactments, right on the LBH River. The Crow Reenactment is "Kick ***!!!" Dangerous, and well worth every drop of sweat, pain and angst I have every expended in being on the loosing side of that fight!!!!
But back to the subject. Just for starters, I have two books, which speak of the follow on campaign, here they are: Battles & Skirmishes of the Great Sioux War 1876-1877 Complied edited and annotated by: Jerome A. Greene We Trailed the Sioux, by Paul L. Hedren A good diary account is: Sagebrush Soldier By Sherry L. Smith Great first hand account of the Dull Knife Fight. (I passed on a ride over that battlefield back in 2000). What a huge mistake on my part!!!! Oh, and yes, Evan S. Connell’s “Son of the Morning Star” is a great beginning reader. Hard to follow, but read it anyway. Then watch the follow on movie by the same name. I have some problems with it as far as period uniform authenticity, but it is pretty well right on. Especially the final battle scene, it was filmed on Pryor Creek near Billings, MT. I have a VHS copy, but it never made the transition to DVD. It’s a must see for anyone interested in the LBH and the Indian Wars period. As far as the immediate after battle “graves registration” activity, I can contact my good friend Bill R. PhD, Colonel, Aviation Branch (twice shot down over Viet Nam) with a request for information on what to read on this subject. He is very well read on the Whole Little Big Horn Battle and many others also. Want more info???… Contact me here on this thread or message me directly, with the subject line being: “Garryowen related” “Boots & Saddles!!!” & “Garryowen” V/R, IC2SS19Z50C5, AKA Brigadier General Crook Yellowstone & Bighorn Expedition Summmer of 1876 Commanding |
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IC2SS19250C5- Saw your piece on this and have to ask, Do you know or have met Steve Alexander of Monroe, Michigan? He's an old friend and we were up at Monroe for the finish of Custer Week Festivies this past October.
Garry Owen in glory! |
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There was a Little Bighorn thread on another section that closed without some major discrepancies discussed. First: That being Custer's men would have had a better chance if armed with repeaters. Now I don't know the young gent who wrote the question for the thread, but he needs to go do some studying on the ballistics and ranges of the repeaters available during that time period verus the Springfield carbine.
The second was the issue of how many Indians Custer faced and how the troops were dispersed. The repeaters of the day Winchester and Henry were medium to short range weapons. They lost their accuracy and muzzle velocity at about 300 to 400 yards. The Springfield was accurate up to 900 yards. Effective range about 700 yards. Another thing considered after the Civil War was money. The US Army was looking to save money any way it could. The repeaters were exspensive to make and buy compared to the Springfields. Also the repeaters used brass cartridges. The Springfield government issue used spun copper cartridges. Those were much cheaper. Another deal is made, why didn't Custer take the Gatling gun section. He knew they would be useless to him. One thing that is overlooked on the early Gatlings is the lack of cooling system. Yes you put out a large volume of fire, but for how long before the weapon malfunctions. Second the intelligence reports that Custer was given did not include numbers for the Kiowa nation, which must likely would ally themselves with the Sioux. The numbers of hostiles was grossly underestimated in that information given to Custer. Given with the info he had, he believed the Seventh could handle that amount. Many people now believe there was a conspiracy against Custer. Documents are still being de-classified concerning the incident. One other thing another young man should check on when he states "That's how the North American Indians were being treated." The last 60 odd years of the 19th Century saw European powers moving in for colonies and enslaving the native populations. British killing Indians and Arabs French killing Africans,Arabs and Asians. Germans killing Aricans, Arabs, Pacific Islanders Dutch killing, Africans, Javanese, Sumatarians. Go back and read some those history books you didn't pay any attention to in school. We were NOT the only ones treating native peoples badly, so get off that high horse and do some reading. |
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On my last post, I went back and checked my notes. The statements that talks about the 1876 intellingence reports. My notes state that the Cheyenne were not included on that report either. so you can figure it up, Custer took the field looking to run into only 1/3 of the Indians that he finally had to fight. Hellva difference!
Also under the rifle content. Quite a few of the Indian engagements that were fought in the Indian War period were fought at ranges exceeding two to three hundred yards......hmmm, kinda makes what I stated in the other post shed some new light on the winchesters and Henries. I have owned reproduction Henries, they are really a good piece for shorter ranges. Mine was a 45 long Colt caliber. I sold it three years ago and wish now I hadn't! Oh well once the kids get through college? |
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Basic Training |
The Springfield was a good ranging weapon. However it had some drawbacks as it was the 1863 model used in the civil war with thousands in warehouses so to save alot of government money was redesigned as a breechloader(Trapdoor)which has two small fingers for extracting the casings. The barrel was resleeved to the smaller caliber bullet with a copper not brass casing (brass costs more then copper and smaller caliber means more bullets for less cost).
Soldiers were not able to fire ammo very often if a soldier did fire weapon his pay was docked for the cost of the bullet(s) fired and freight cost. There was alot of dry firing of thier weapons which led to some not even functioning when needed as the breech housed a floating firing pin that would be damaged from extensive dry firing.The casings were of copper when a steel weapon heats up from extensive firing the casing seazes up in the chamber and the extractors can't extract the casing then the soldier is using a pocket knife to get the casing out. I was part of a large group who were there in 1988/1989 to fight that big fire. As we were doing mop up operations on hot spots we found several rusted springfield trapdoors and all of them had casings stuck in the chamber. All of them had odd holes in the top or right side and looked closer the hole was same shape as a pocket knife. |
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Blessed is the nation God is for. |
Thanx, I have long wondered exactly why the troops were having trouble with their weapons, especially after I had occasion to visit the LBH battlefield (I managed to find my way to a hillock where Maj. Reno took his stand). Now grant you, Custer and his men were vastly out-numbered; the Indians would have eventually overrun his position if they had nothing more than their bare hands. But Sitting Bull and others have stated that the battle really didn't last that long - about 20 to 30 minutes. So immediately the question arises - WHY??? Custer's men were well-armed, and lack of ammunition doesn't seem to have been a major factor; they also had weapons that had been proved in the Civil War. So without knowing about the resleeving of the barrels and the change in the ammo, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Still, the one factor that seems to consistantly be borne out is the malfunction of the weapons and the necessity to dig those spent shells out with their knives. Add on the fact that the Indians had repeating arms, and we have all the necessary ingredients for a disaster. Of course, Custer was a glory hog, and really didn't follow his orders. His troop was supposed to be a part of a pincer manouver with something like 3 armies converging on the Indians. But Custer drove his men hard so that he would be there first! Well he was first, sure enough, and that was also his last ride. Had he taken a more leisurely march and allowed the other troops to arrive as planned, they might have survived, even against 5 Indian nations. As it was, he mounted a monumental blunder, and it took the US Army years to round-up the Indians that were all gathered together there at one time. Was he deliberately given faulty intelligence? They'll likely be arguing about that for the next 100 years. This message has been edited. Last edited by: AirDefndr1968, |
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Basic Training |
I've read in a number of accounts, as well as on this thread, about the Springfield rifles used by th 7th having all sorts of jamming problems. However, when reading accounts by and about the Reno/Benteen siege you seldom see anything about rifles jamming. Anyone know why the difference?
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Blessed is the nation God is for. |
According to the historic signs posted at the hillock where I found myself, Maj. Reno retreated across a loop of the Little Bighorn River and regrouped on that hillock about a mile away from where he had originally formed a skirmish line, and perhaps 2 miles from the village. While the Indians, no doubt, knew about Reno and his position, he was far enough away from the flank of the village that he presented no real threat to them. Nevertheless, the Indians did keep up harassing attacks throughout the night and when Capt. Benteen finally relieved him the next morning he had sustained upwards of 30% casualties with many men being in very bad shape. Also, it should be noted that while Maj. Reno was not physically injured, because of his lack of combat experience he was so rattled as to be totally ineffective. One report has it that during the course of the initial skirmish that one of his men had splattered Reno's uniform with his brains, which left Reno in a state of incoherant shock. Still, the implication is that the Indians never really tried to attack in force and overrun his position. Therefore we must assume that the soldiers had time to fire their weapons without overheating them. Also, they would have had the ability to utilize the weapons of the injured men who were unable to fight, giving them even more time to avoid overheating their rifles. Capt. Benteen arrived to find a very badly beaten group (they were called a battalion, but in reality Reno only had about 175 men, which would have actually been a company). Therefore Capt. Benteen, who was probably the officer with the most combat experience in the command besides Custer, and who had no clear orders of what he was to do, threw in his lot with Reno and together they mounted a rear-guard action to get the troops to safety. But even Benteen only had about 110 men, so their combined forces would have still been far less than a regulation battallion. Nevertheless, the implication is that by the next morning the Indians had simply lost interest in Reno and his troops and so these officers used this to their advantage to withdraw and get the men to safety. There are no further reports of skirmishes after they had withdrawn from the immediate vicinity of the Little Bighorn area; Custer and his men were all dead (estimated to be about 300)and there was no longer any immediate threat to the village. By the time that the troops of the other columns finally arrived on the scene, the village and the Indians were long-gone. This message has been edited. Last edited by: AirDefndr1968, |
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AirDefender, Major Reno's only lack of combat experience was in the fighting of Indians. He saw major combat in the Civil War and saw far worse than just brains blown out of heads. He fact was commended for his bravery and leadership under fire. So....What happened?
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AirDefender again, Custer DIDNOT disobey orders! He made a decision on and in the field like many other commanders have done. Excuse me, but when the circumstances suddenly change so they don't fit the happenings, what should have he have done? Stop sit there and wait for more orders, turn around and fall back? The orders went out the window when he met the hostiles in an area where they weren't supposed to be.
Also did you see what I wrote above, the intell he was given didnot account for the amount of Indians he ran into. I'm sorry but even with personal musing from battlefield visits you're still blinding yourself to other truths that have come out and fixed your opinion when there is evidence to show otherwise. Iused to have a set opinion on this whole affair, but after serving 20 years active duty and reading and discussing this with more people and seeing other statements and facts, documents, etc, I don't have the same opinion and have developed a bad feeling of why Custer ended up the way he did. And not just by his vanity....... |
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Consider this, the commander in chief has never liked you, yet you gave him after victory during the past war of the rebellion. You came back and testified against the president's brother and the Secretary of the Interior on fruad charges and misapporiation of funding charges. Then you also have a victory over the Plains Indians.
The other politicial party is looking to ask you to be their nominee for the nexr presidential election. a victory in the next year's presidential election could put you in the White House. Its arranged that you will only command your regiment in the upcoming campaign and be sub-ordinate all the other commanders. You are given intelligence that is faulty in that it does not take in account two Indian nations that will in most all cases ally them selves with the Sioux. A Staff officer is sent around to the military posts to talk about the upcming campaign but does not talk to you. Only your subordinates. You lose, you fight three times as many Indians than you told and led to believe and are made the scapegoat of a failed casmpaign by being accused of disobeying orders. Which you did not. After one hundred thirty years new proceedings are opened up and documents that have been misplaced somewhere start cropping up. You've been branded an Indian hater, portrayed in the movies as a rabid in insane pyshco, Which you were not and no info about how you respected the Indians and were testifiying FOR them in the scandal incoving Grant's brother. Why were there only three transcrips made of Benteen and Reno's court martials when regulations required five and five recorders present during the proceedings? Why were those two officers out of the army within a decade because of drunkeness and lewd behavior? Was it because of a guilty concious? Did Libby Custer know something but was not at liberty to say and do because of national security and the maintaining of a corrupt presidency? Need I go on? I believe that the Grant Administration set Custer up using Benteen and Reno. Cashing in on their hatred of Custer and knowing Custer knew he would take things on hid own if the situation arose. The finding of the Indians a full day ahead of time gave them their chance. Custer also by having the faulty intell, went in believing the Seventh could handle the Indians. THey couldn't. With Custer dead, Crook defeated on the Rosebud, things didn't pan out. so now we look for scapegoats, AHA! We know a good one, GAC! And he's been portrayed as one until now. I'm not a Custer lover, but even I can see there was a stink about this whole thing! And it started in the White House. |
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Blessed is the nation God is for. |
I have never researched Maj. Reno and I have absolutely no idea what sort of officer he was. I was merely relating one report that I had that seemed to indicate that Reno was very confused and "incoherent" during the intial stages of his conflict with the Indians at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. One of the Indian scouts in his command said that he gave 3 successive orders to mount, dismount, and remount in order to retire from their intial skirmish line on the flank of the village, all within a matter of minutes. Some of the men stated that he really had not composed himself until after they had retreated to the hillock where Capt. Benteen found him. Me? I wasn't there, so I really don't know. Every single report I have is at least 100 years old. |
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Blessed is the nation God is for. |
The thing that stands out in my mind is the fact that Custer knew about the pincer manouver and the intent to "surround and consume" the Indians camped on the Little Big Horn. Yet he deliberately and mercilessly drove his men, both day and night, to get there ahead of everyone else. Even when his scouts began returning reports of Indian activity, he did not slow what had become a pell-mell run to the Little Big Horn valley. By Army standards, his march should have taken at least 3 more days than what he had forced upon his men. By the time they had actually found the Indian village, his men were almost at the point of exhaustion and really were not in any sort of shape for combat operations. As for his leaving his Gatling guns behind, I won't even touch upon that, as some knowledgable people have claimed that his was a prudent decision. As for me, I would have wanted those guns, even if they did slow the march. Many have claimed that Custer really had no specific orders and no specific time frame for his march, and therefore he really had not violated his orders. That may be technically correct, but very cold comfort to the the widows and orphans who had to pick up the pieces after that colossal blunder. Had Custer maintained a standard field march and not driven his men so mercilessly, I would be inclined to be much more charitable. But Custer was reknown for his recklessness during the Civil War. His losses were greater than any other field commander of his rank on either side. Except for the shift in geography, nothing much had changed when he found himself in Indian territory. He was rash, brash, and reckless! |
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Blessed is the nation God is for. |
There has always been a cloud of political intrigue hanging over Custer and the Little Big Horn disaster. There can be no question that this intrigue has, at best, colored the picture and, at worst, possibly skewed our entire understanding of the facts surrounding the matter. It is well known that there was no love lost between Grant and Custer. This may have actually originated during the Civil War when Custer was suddenly promoted to the rank of general, in effect he had out-done Grant who had worked many years to acheive the same rank. But one thing that should never be overlooked is the absolute fact that each of us is our own worst enemy. Custer was very rash, brash, and arrogant and he had stepped on a lot of toes and made quite a few enemies for himself in the army. Grant just happened to be the most powerful and most vindictive of his enemies but, by no means his only one. So in a very real sense, Custer was the author of his own undoing. Had Custer been less arrogant and more of a team player, he might have benefitted in ways that we can only speculate upon. Had Custer been a lot more selective about whose toes he was going to step on, he might have been able to avoid the Little Big Horn disaster. Still, when you boil it all down, each of us reaps what we sow. Custer had a way of sowing a lot of ill-will. That's bad business at any time, but when you make an enemy of powerful and vindictive people like Grant, it's a sure-fire formula for a bad ending. Of course, the real tragedy was the loss of the men who really had nothing to do with the intrigue in the first place. I am reminded of an expression that one man gave me that went something like this: "When elephants fight the grass is destroyed." It makes sense. The grass that gets trampled really had nothing to do with the fact that the elephants decided to fight. In like manner, the men of the 7th were mere pawns in this huge political struggle that was going on between men with powerful ambitions. |
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Agreed! As I said, I'm no Custer lover, never have been, but once you start looking really deep into this whole thing the smellier it gets!
You can blame Alfred Pleasanton for Custer's promotion to General. When George Mrade took command of the Army of the Potomac he heeded his friend John Renyolds' advice, "insist upon being about to promote who you want within the army before taking command." The following afternoon after taking command Meade met with Pleasanton, then head of the cavalry for the A of P and asked him in the reorganization of the corps who he wanted to promote? Pleasanton replied, "George Custer, Wesley Merritt and Elon J. Farnsworth." All were breveted to Brigadier General. Of course Custer had been Pleasantons' aide and meesenger boy. It is also a shame that the men of the seventh had to suffer, I surely do agree, they deserved better. |
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