quote:

Originally posted by RONCO:

PS: IT IS NO ACCIDENT THAT THE ALL-VOLUNTEER PROFESSIONALS OF TODAY'S MILITARY ARE THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF VIETNAM VETERANS...WE CAN BE VERY PROUD OF THAT FACT!

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT POINT RONCO!

quote:

but then again was told by the v.a. since my mos was not combat i was not intitled to any recogntion for what i done over there.

Good point William! Thanks for your service. I have had a thousand or two, three, four or more Field Wireman MOS folks, to run into the same problems. That is where the VSO needs to start tracking witnesses, using 'buddy statements' and also getting unit records and duty logs.
You are right on the target, thanks for your post!

quote:

Man shoots you, you return fire, combat last time I checked.

WRONG! (Loud irritating buzzer sounds). My so-called VSO and I thought the same thing when he "helped" me put in for PTSD, but the VA quickly straighened my arse out on THAT misconception!

quote:

Originally posted by Schwanke:

quote:

Man shoots you, you return fire, combat last time I checked.

WRONG! (Loud irritating buzzer sounds). My so-called VSO and I thought the same thing when he "helped" me put in for PTSD, but the VA quickly straighened my arse out on THAT misconception!

Please go to the PTSD forum and we can and will discuss this issue. Please e-mail me from my website e-mail link as that is direct into my office. http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/4230026980001
In regards to "[M]y so-called VSO and I thought the same thing when he "helped" me put in for PTSD, but the VA quickly straighened my arse out on THAT misconception!"
Being a VSO is not excactly an easy job. It is certainly not an exact science. The most difficult of claims are the PTSD and Agent Orange claims. PTSD claims require a verification of the stressor, that is a regulation that must be complied with. The diagnosis must be linked to the stressor in service, not another event. I see many times where the veteran in therapy talks about the childhood abuse, most often when that is on record, it is bye bye claim. The VSO can only do with what is available. VSO's usually are well trained on putting claims together, based on the information available. The information must be supplied by the veteran. Over the past 30 years it has been my good fortune, to develop enough information from the veteran, to track down the missing buddies and the lost records.
In regard to AO claims. The VA goes by a set acceptable list of conditions recognized by the National Academy of Sciences. These when accepted by the VA Attorney's are considered 'presumptive' conditions. All other conditions are on a case by case basis, which normally will be denied based on the regulation the rating specialist can only grant on those conditions recognized by the Secretary of the VA. If there is enough medical evidence from the physician to links a condition, not on the list to the veterans claimed condition, it may be granted by the BVA, or the higher court, such as the Haas decision (which Secretary Nicholson has appealed).
Then there is the exposure issue. Being in Vietnam during the recognized dates of use, or at the Korean DMZ 1968-69 are the only presumptive exposures. We have listed on the Agent Orange Discussion Boards many of the other areas where AO was used. These however are NOT automatically accpeted by the rating specialist, as they must follow the rules established by VA Central Office. Also the places which AO was used are on my website. If someone goes on my website they must be willing to click on flag bars, buttons and the sailors prayer to get all the information contained therein. I cannot afford to purchase a website, so I use GeoCities and my webmistress is Maria Hall, a sister of an old friend and VA Vet Center therapist.
Being a VSO is not easy. VSO's get little credit when the veteran wins a case and all the blame when the case is lost. Recently a veteran who is 50% service connected was denied his request for increase. The denial was based on the C&P exam and what he told the examiner. The veterans wife called me and let me know, I had lost his case and they needed the extra money. She called me about everything you can think of except a human being. That included the comment "you so-called representative!"
It is not always a piece of cake as a VSO.

It is not always a piece of cake as a ex-combat vet either...

What about the 150,000 who committed suicide sinjce the war?

I salute all the VN Vets. I joined in JAN 1972, but they threw me into Korea for my first tour. Sure thought that I had been sent to RVN when we circled the AFB and I saw rice fields and little straw huts.

RVN took some heavy tolls from the American G.I., but apparently it could not kick them down. You guys are among the best.

quote:

Originally posted by 12483107:
What about the 150,000 who committed suicide sinjce the war?

OK...WHAT ABOUT THEM?

ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY SOMETHING??

DO YOU HAVE A LINK FOR YOUR STATISTICAL COMMENT???

quote:

Originally posted by 12483107:
What about the 150,000 who committed suicide sinjce the war?

First off, I don't know where that stat comes from so I couldn't agree or disagree on the numbers you post. Do you have a link?

Second of all, what are you getting at? Did the war in VietNam take its toll on the souls of people that were there? You bet your bippy it did!! What war doesn't? Tell us when you served? Your profile only has 'Prior Service', it doesn't say when. If you were around and old enough to serve during any of the VietNam War, you wouldn't be pushing this garbage. Somebody posts some stats to show how most of the vets from that war overcame the horrors that they experienced, and all you seem to be able to spout is "What about the bad side of that war!"

Third, - Are you a Liberal?

Someone bring me a railroad spike they want shortened!!!

quote:

Originally posted by 12483107:
What about the 150,000 who committed suicide sinjce the war?

You have a source for this?

Also what would the expected number of suicides be for 2.7 million (virtually all men) over a time span that covered 40+ years?

Whats the difference in the suicide rate for 60 year old non vet males who live in the US vs 60 year old vet but no VN males who...vs 60 year old VN vet males who saw little combat...vs 60 year old VN combat vets.....

Dave or anyone? Are there comparisons out there you are aware of?


.

I spent time writing an article, and then found this site. I have a hard time believing the numbers. My calculations would put the number at 5 years given national statistics at maybe 5,000, not 100,000. That is based on annual rate for male veterans of about 36 per 100,000 per year.

http://www.capveterans.com/caprd_004.htm


But this questions the numbers
http://www.vwam.com/client/contentclient.php?intIdContent=15

And this interesting article that basically says that your 2nd LT is more likely to stick a gun in his mouth than you are. (I extrapolated based on education)
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/suicide-rates-adouble-male-veterans-13439.html

And you might find this interesting.
http://www.brianwillson.com/awolvetmemo.html

So there is no documentation to show that 150,000 died at their own hands.

Days off? I had to go to your bio to see just where you were in RVN! Myself or my crew NEVER saw one "day off" in the 365 day tour. We worked 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, Christmas, etc. Must have been a "MACV thing" I guess.
Welcome home brother!

quote:

Originally posted by dragonflyer04:
Hono I went through the same thing with those yoyo's even sent them my pay slips with HFP, RNA and COLA...I lived, ate and fought with the RVN, everyday 24/7!

They would not know a live round from a thunderclap or loud fart! Don't feel bad you are in good company. It takes forever to get it across to those azzholes.

On my days off I would fly side gunner on slicks (HU1B's) just to get out of the ****. I went on combat assaults while on those rides and have no idea where that information went.

My CO threatened to courts martial me if I was hurt while volunteering... That was one crazy damn place!

Great post... Excellent post and nothing much else to be said.

I thought the post on the suicide thing was really very high though. Sometimes I thought perhaps there was something wrong with me... went over and came back without much problem adapting either way.

I think about some things some times and wish that they never had to happen... but I don't have nightmares about it. I mean lets face it boys, it was them or me... I chose them. My father and I, who was in the European theater talked before I went and for the first time talked very frankly of his experiences. I took his advice... I came home.

God Bless all the troops no matter where they served and when... brothers in arms each and every one.

I will not get into reported suicide statisics of Vietnam veterans, as I do not know which survey would be most factual. I did take a class from Dr. John Wilson in the 1980's on PTSD. It was discussed then in detail.
Since my first days as a VSO I have had 8 clients commit suicide, everyone of them was a Vietnam veteran. The first one was in 1978 and he did it by dressing in his USMC utilities and going out into a field in the east side of Columbus, digging a foxhole and stated firing a weapon. The Columbus SWAT arrived (dressed in black), told him to drop his weapon, he didn't, they killed him. I believe he was having a severe flashback and acting out. He did intentionally draw their fire. So I consider it a suicide. This was severasl years before PTSD was classified by the APA.
My last client to commit suicide was this past year. He was 100% PTSD by schedule, however he caught us all off guard. These not only take a life of a fellow veteran, it brings devastation on all family, friends and people like me who care.

Dave, great initial post on this discussion!

quote:

His MOS was not considered a combat position.

This has me concerned, though the descion was not recent ('84), there had been many, many Service Members that were in that category, during the the VN War, that served in like postions of the Marine you refer to in your book. As were many wig waggers as you mentioned in a earlier post.

quote:

two, three, four or more Field Wireman MOS folks, to run into the same problems.

There were many dropped in isolated locations during campaigns wagged in Vietnam.

Mechanics, signal corps, clerks, cooks or anyone that was available served as door gunners for the Army during the Vietnam War. All of these Soldiers served in a combat zone and many served in combat, though not identified with a combat MOS.

Is this an indication of the failure or inability of the VA to award care and/or the correct disability rating. Only due to the scale or rule; is that their skill was not a combat skill? If that had been the situation, I certinally hope it was corrected, as wrong as it was. This, but another failure to our Vietnam Veterans in responding to what they earned through their Service.

I'm not proud of posting what may appear to be a less than positive opinion on this. But, what I've gleamed from your post, the situation regarding the Marine, got me going, as did with Schwanke's post

quote:

WRONG! (Loud irritating buzzer sounds). My so-called VSO and I thought the same thing when he "helped" me put in for PTSD, but the VA quickly straighened my arse out on THAT misconception!

I applaud all of the VSOs and the many others that work to support our Veterans in so many way's, many of which are only known by the Veterans, those close to them , those that volunteer and provide multitude types of care, assitance, necessities, and joy! BUT we must support our Veteran organizations in any way we can, in order for them to continue to hammer away at getting it right for all of our Veterans in the care & service they have selflessly earned.

There is no perfect system, but if there was to be one the example should be the VA, after all it is honor to have Served, a privilege not all have, and those that served in combat did so for their Nation. And our Nation indicated that there is a system in place to assist our Veterans, sorta in print as we use to refer to as the GI Bill of Rights.

SALUTE TO OUR VIETNAM COMBAT VETERANS!

Thanks daCAT for the kind words. The definition of "combat" has been a real sore spot ever since I found out how the VA trims it budget with their definition. Of course in my case, I was a Warrant Officer, we cannot even hold a combat specialty. In going backwards to find just who the kook was that made that definition, it appears it has never been established as law, apparently some paper pusher found he could clean out his backlog of cases with that, and it spread. Dave may be able to shed some more light on just who and when it all started.
I find most are similarly disbelieving when told that spending a year in a shooting war, getting shot at and shooting back, and all the other "stuff" of a war, does not qualify you as having been in combat to the VA, but the soldier with the infantry MOS who never got out of Saigon but served booze at the MACV Officers club, gets there with flying colors as a "combat" veteran. Go figure!

Thanks Dave, good post.
And they shot at us too even in thailand. We qualified for combat pay quite a bit... mortars and rockets don't care what your MOS is.

Schwanke.. never got a day off? Musta been my R&R because I was out in the boonies with the RVN types and would get back to the Advisory Compond outside Bien Hoa a few days a month...instead of sitting around drinking beer I would get a ride to the AFB and volunteer as side gunner. I did not take R&R to Hong Kong or Hawaii...but did get air evac'd to Clark AFB hospital in Phillipiines...ever make that trip?

The only other WO's were usually admin types. Personnel, Finance, etc. except for the jocks in the Hueys (lifesavers)!

I gues you weren't in an Advisory capacity but with a TOE unit. I notice you were a WO... if you were flying a Huey you would know there were shortages in crew and the units cycled quarterly...due tothe stress factors. They did a hell of a job.

They had such a dangerous job my CO threatened to courtmartial me for taking the rides...said my body was "government property"...

Of course I didn't pay attention to him...to young and full of piss and vinegar.

Welcome Home to you too! Been a long trip.

Yeah, I was in an Engineer Battalion at Phu Loi. It was different strokes for different folks, I was hoping some others would chime in with their schedules as well. I know the infantry types there had some sort of rest time back at home base after being out a while, the Artillery types out on the remote firebases had some sort of rotation also as I recall.
I did some of the same as you, but in the evenings. We worked from 0630 to 1830, and going out with fellow WO pilots for fun and games in the evenings was great fun to me, heck they even let me fly some of the time, I didn't do too badly either!