Maggie- we have already been down this route!! With all due respect, I already have answered your questions, some months ago. I am not about to diverge into that particular rabbit hole again..

Please, Maggie.. many professionals here have been courteous, and have answered your questions..
Your evidence is not based on Scientific Fact..(Clinical Data/Research)

Maggie, your conclusions just don't add up...

My last word is, "What is the Fatigue of Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome?"

My thoughts on ALS - where should I post this topic?

____________________

From Dave: This THE last warning. I gave Maggie the last word in our debate as a gentleman.

The issues on this forum are Agent Orange topics to assist those veterans who have been exposed to herbicides.

Here is a quote from one of the most qualified members on this or any other forum:
pipedreamsandbabies
"The Mistress!"
Posted Fri 01 December 2006 22:09
Maggie- we have already been down this route!! With all due respect, I already have answered your questions, some months ago. I am not about to diverge into that particular rabbit hole again..

Please, Maggie.. many professionals here have been courteous, and have answered your questions..
Your evidence is not based on Scientific Fact..(Clinical Data/Research)

Maggie, your conclusions just don't add up...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: DearMaggie,

Dear Maggie
If you wish to post on your issue you will have more leeway on the Health Concerns from Desert Storm to Iraq & Afghanistan Discussion Boards. You may start your own topic as long as you follow terms of use.
Please do not read anything other than what I have stated in this message. You may start your own topic as long as you follow Terms Of Use.
http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/6170087960001
Do not post any more on this subject on the AGENT ORANGE or PTSD forums!

I am bumping this topic to prevent pruning. It however contains an important message to all AO and Vietnam veterans and their dependents.
Although the VA has lost two decisions on Agent Orange and Blue Water sailors, the Secretary of Veterans Affairs continues to use VA General Counsel to delay working the claims. Thus the politicians position against AO victims has now been made perfectly clear.
In my opinion it is time you, the people most interested in these issues, please write your two U.S. Senators, as well as your U.S. Representative and complain about the clear discrimination against Vietnam veterans.
If you are not a Blue Water sailor and you did indeed stepped on the ground, you still need to support your brothers on the Blue Waters .

In the last Agent Orange Review (7/06) there was a list of 14 birth defects that could have been caused by AO, however, they applied only to women Viet Vets. Two of these birth defects apply to my son (piloric stenosis) & grandson (club feet(dual). My son was born 9 months almost to the day that I returned from Vietnam. I was in-country 364 days and spent all my time in II,III & IV Corps.

I am not aware of any health problems caused by AO for myself but since that AO Review came out I have concerns about AO effect on my children & grandchildren's health. This particularly since the findings of the ""Cytogenetic and Genome Research" shows that exposure to Agent Orange, and other defoliants, has led to genetic disturbance in New Zealand Vietnam War veterans that continues to persist decades after their service."

I took an AO Physical last month, which was extremely thorough, but found I had no ill effects from AO.

Although none of us need medical or financial support now is there any way I can get this on record so if any of our decendents may need assistance for these disorders a connection can be made?

Cheers,

quote:

Although none of us need medical or financial support now is there any way I can get this on record so if any of our decendents may need assistance for these disorders a connection can be made?

Please review my website. Links are on the opening of this forum.

Im new at all this but I would like to know what are the 14 birth defects T181 was referring to. My father was in Vietnam when they used Agent Orange. I am the only person in our entire family who has a siezure disorder. The doctors have all told me there is no way Agent Orange could have anything to do with it. But it still makes me wander why I am the only person to have seizures in our family. Also I have had strange rashes if you want to call them that because they dont itch. They are just bumps that show up and then go away only to come back a short time later. I worry about my son also and what affects he may have. When I was a child I had to have sugery on my kidneys and bladder. Again my parents were told Agent Orange could not have caused my problems. To this day I will not donate blood because of fear from the toxins Of Agent Orange I may give to someone else. I know that sounds crazy but my father has told me that ever since I was old enough to donate.

quote:

My father was in Vietnam when they used Agent Orange. I am the only person in our entire family who has a siezure disorder. The doctors have all told me there is no way Agent Orange could have anything to do with it.

I have had othes with the same problem. This disorder has not been determined related to TCDD.
Please review the material on my website.
Dave

All I can say is WOW!!! I read your book on your site and found out a lot of things my own father does'nt even know about. He has recently been diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes. It does run in the family but Im sure AO could have played a contributing factor. I will make sure to have my father look up your site. You answered a lot of questions no one else could answer. Keep up the great work!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Libsmacker:
Im new at all this but I would like to know what are the 14 birth defects T181 was referring to.

Actually there are 18 listed (I don't know where I got 14). Go to http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/page.cfm?pg=1 click on the top link 2006 July. It will take you to the last Agent Orange Review (Volume 22 Number 2), The list is on page 6.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
David

Dave - I have been reading up on a lot of material regarding agent orange as well as looking for other children of vets who have posted questions regarding this on the internet - that was how I found this site. First, thank you for allowing so many of us to look for answers here. I know that some organizations have attempted to do surveys to find out the affects that agent orange has had on spouses, children, and grandchildren of Veitnam Veterans, but they are hard to find and most people, if they are like me, take a long time to make a connection to their parent's exposure to the chemical. Is there a way for the many who have described their problems here to come together and voice our problems to the right decision makers? I ask because, as I stated before, the surveys are hard to locate and most may not even know that their symptoms may be related. I only discovered it after my father told me that my symptoms were very similar to what he experienced upon his return from Nam and when I was conceived. I know that you have done extensive research regarding this and I thought you would be the right person to turn to. This is just my opinion, of coarse, but it seems that if we could get this into the right media outlet we might be able to get somewhere. There is so much media surrounding our troops right now that if we could move forward with proving that we were affected by agent orange, it might make the claims process easier for our Vietnam Veterans. It may also aid in adding more illnesses to the list for our Veterans - like skin cancer, bladder cancer, etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated because this seems to be an epidemic that is being ignored by those with the decision making power. Thanks!!!

quote:

Originally posted by T181:
Actually there are 18 listed (I don't know where I got 14). Go to http://www1.va.gov/agentorange/page.cfm?pg=1 click on the top link 2006 July. It will take you to the last Agent Orange Review (Volume 22 Number 2), The list is on page 6.

Here is another recent finding on AO that may address my problem where I have no bad effects but my children & grandchildren do.
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Aktio...915&ProduktNr=224037

Cheers,
David

I am glad to read all the posts on here because I feel like I am not alone but it also really upsets me that the government cannot and refuse to step up and take responsibility for their actions. I am 32 and I have 2 children of my own, all my life I have always been really sick but my health started taking a turn within the last few years. My father is 100% disabled through he VA due to peripheral neuropathy caused by exposure to agent orange. My symptoms & problems are a mirror image of his and I have also been diagnosed with the same illness. They say it is impossible for him to have passed it to me (I was born after he returned from Vietnam). I have been checked and rechecked for all the other usual ways that you can get neuropathy but I have no problems that are linked to it, logically the only other answer is my father. My life has been turned upside down, my illness ended my marriage because I got so ill and it ruined our finances and I am barely able to care for myself let alone my children. I read all the storiesof offspring of vets that are in the same position that I am in and you can't tell me that these people in the government agencies just go about their lives and sleep well at night knowing there are so many innocent people being affected by this and nobody is helping. I read how the US helps those in Vietnam that were exposed, sure take responsibility but take care of your own citizens in your country, we come first but they are turning a blind eye to the problem.

quote:

I read all the storiesof offspring of vets that are in the same position that I am in and you can't tell me that these people in the government agencies just go about their lives and sleep well at night knowing there are so many innocent people being affected by this and nobody is helping. I read how the US helps those in Vietnam that were exposed, sure take responsibility but take care of your own citizens in your country, we come first but they are turning a blind eye to the problem.

I hope you have visited my website. The birth defect issue is fairly well addressed.

As far the USA as helping in Vietnam, that is not happening either. Please read the AO articles.
Thanks,
Dave Barker

Dave, I am shocked at some of the posts. I am a retired helicopter pilot and have seen a lot and gone through a lot since retirement in '80. I know that I was exposed to herbicides in 68/69 in the 4 corps (Vinh Long). Many unexplained medical disorders since. VA says 'just due to old age' bull----! What does one do? Cpt Carter, USA, Ret.

I had an AO physical at the VA a couple of months ago and was given a clean bill of health which I expected. It was birth defects that I was concerned with and was not addressed while I was there. My next step is to put in a claim with the help of DAV, VFW or state department of Vetran's Affairs. Not impressed with the state people (Washington). Actually, I'm not looking for money - both my son and grandson are well taken care of, however, perhaps their sons or grandsons won't be so fortunate. I just want it on record in the event they need assistance in the future that their birth defects are the result of exposure to AO during grandpa David's Vietnam tour.

Cheers,
David

PS: Been to Vinh Long many a time, also spent time at An Toi, Can Tho, Dong Tam and My Tho from 10/66-1067.

quote:

WARRIORFAMILY
Member
Posted Sat 07 July 2007 11:51 AM
Dave, I am shocked at some of the posts. I am a retired helicopter pilot and have seen a lot and gone through a lot since retirement in '80. I know that I was exposed to herbicides in 68/69 in the 4 corps (Vinh Long). Many unexplained medical disorders since. VA says 'just due to old age' bull----! What does one do? Cpt Carter, USA, Ret.
Posts: 94 | Registered: Wed 04 February 2004
________________________________________________
Post by WARRIORFAMILY posted Sat 07 July 2007 11:51 AM

T181
Basic Training

Posted Sat 07 July 2007 02:19 PM
I had an AO physical at the VA a couple of months ago and was given a clean bill of health which I expected. It was birth defects that I was concerned with and was not addressed while I was there. My next step is to put in a claim with the help of DAV, VFW or state department of Vetran's Affairs. Not impressed with the state people (Washington). Actually, I'm not looking for money - both my son and grandson are well taken care of, however, perhaps their sons or grandsons won't be so fortunate. I just want it on record in the event they need assistance in the future that their birth defects are the result of exposure to AO during grandpa David's Vietnam tour.

Cheers,
David

PS: Been to Vinh Long many a time, also spent time at An Toi, Can Tho, Dong Tam and My Tho from 10/66-1067.
Posts: 4 | Registered: Thu 04 January 2007

As stated many times before, my website covers the AO birth defect issue and the gross lack of investigation of birth defects. In order to grasp the full meaning of my point one must read all of the book " In Search Of The Truth For Vietnam Combat Veterans" as well as ALL of the Agent Orange articles on my website.
http://www.geocities.com/dave_barker_amvet/index.html

I also wish to state the studies made (indicated in VA's Agent Orange Review) are only those requested by the Secretary of Veterans Affairs. Only by request of the Secretary is a condition addressed by the National Academy of Sciences. This is a highly political issue and it is an issue that should not be political. The birth defect issue has been grossly ignored since my becoming directly involved in veterans and Agent Orange problems during 1977.

Here is a copy/paste from an article on my site:

There was also comparison of the birth defect issue which still remains stalled, even though the studies from the National Academy of Science, Institute of Medicine clearly show a higher ratio of incidence for Cerebral Palsy which has been ignored.
There are several issues regarding Agent Orange and additional birth defects, which more than likely, will be brought to the forefront in the next several years of study. Many people do not understand that birth defects are reported to the authorities, at the birth of the child. Thus many defects such as learning disabilities; or sensory impairments may not be discovered for months or years. As a result many birth defects go unreported and these children suffer as a result.
The current dioxin levels and profound health problems existing today in Vietnam was reviewed and the 2002 World Health Organization report was made available to those present. SSO Barker strongly recommended those with Internet access to use the available research on line, to obtain information to assist them in learning about the dangers of dioxin."
My in-person presentation before the NAS: quote from the article-
Dave Barker's Presentation to the National Academy of Sciences Institute Of Medicine Veterans and Agent Orange Update Committee made July 8, 2004.
In part...
"Dr. Hoang Dinh Cau, chairman of the government-supported National Committee for Investigation of the Consequences of Chemicals
used in the Vietnam War, known as the 10-80 Committee, has studied the effects of Agent Orange on Vietnamese people over two decades.
Dr. Cau is not as guarded as others at Tu Du Hospital in discussing the use of the herbicide,
which contained dioxin, a contaminant many Western researchers called the most toxic chemical discovered by mankind so far.
This was also stated in my book IN SEARCH OF THE TRUTH FOR VIETNAM COMBAT VETERANS.
The original essay "Poison: Agent Orange" published by The Ohio AMVET in 1983 is the chapter with that statement.
"We have recognized many kinds of birth defects associated with dioxin," Dr. Cau said, opening up a book with photographs of Vietnamese civilians identified as Agent Orange victims.
Several of the photos depict badly deformed infants. The children in Vietnam suffer a broad range of birth defects:
many have unformed limbs, others are mentally handicapped and those with extremely enlarged heads.
Vietnamese scientists and government officials believe the children, along with hundreds of thousands of other Vietnamese are victims of the massive amounts of Agent Orange herbicide that US forces dumped on South Vietnam during the Vietnam War.
Vietnamese researchers, as well as some of their Western colleagues, know that the more than 11 million gallons of Agent Orange that the US military introduced to South Vietnamese ecosystems created a public-health nightmare from which Vietnam has not recovered.
Vietnamese scientists believe the dioxin contamination has caused not only birth defects, but also respiratory cancers, heart problems and diabetes.
In 2000 the US Air Force released a study indicating a link between Agent Orange exposure, diabetes and heart disease.
It has been well over 30 years since the United States stopped using Agent Orange. Thus many seriously ill patients have already died.
Pilot surveys conducted by Vietnamese researchers in December 1998 found that between 800,000 and 1 million Vietnamese had Agent Orange related health problems, in a report released in 1999 by Dr. Le Cao Dai, executive director of the Agent Orange Victims Fund of the Vietnam Red Cross.
As much as 100,000 of those affected by the herbicide suffered some form of birth defect, the surveys found.
The United States thus far has nothing to do with research, into the connection between Agent Orange spraying and health problems among Vietnamese.
The US government has dismissed without review the accuracy and reliability of Vietnamese studies on Agent Orange.
The Dr. Cau 10-80 Committee was so named because it was founded in October 1980.
It is the only Vietnamese organization to attempt systematic research into the effects of Agent Orange.
Dr. Cau said the Vietnamese government had tried studying the mysterious herbicides that the United States used as far back as 1965, but lacked the resources and knowledge to do so effectively.
"The Vietnamese Army never used Agent Orange, so they had no experts to study it," he said.
Vietnamese researchers now know that the dioxin from Agent Orange continues to affect Vietnamese born long after the war because it moves up the food chain, accumulating in higher concentrations as it goes.
According to Dr. Dai's report, 85 to 90 percent of the dioxin detected in the Vietnamese comes from contaminated food.
After an area was sprayed, the report explains, the dioxin from Agent Orange contaminated organic matter in soil as well as river and lake mud.
Animals, fish and shrimp then ingested some of the soil and mud and became contaminated.
Humans, in turn, were exposed to dioxin when they consumed contaminated animal, fish or shrimp products.
Testing for dioxin is a difficult and expensive procedure. One dioxin test costs about $700 in Vietnam, which can quickly destroy budgets of Vietnamese researchers.
People living in sprayed areas as well as the Northern Vietnamese who served in the South during the war have higher levels of dioxin in their bodies than those who have always lived in non-sprayed areas in the North.
A study of human fat tissue in 1984-'85 found that dioxin levels in people who lived in sprayed areas of South Vietnam were 10 times higher than in people living in the North, and two to three times higher than in people residing in industrialized nations.
A 1988 World Health Organization study comparing levels of dioxin in breast milk worldwide found that nursing South Vietnamese women had significantly higher levels of the contaminant in their breast milk than their counterparts in Hanoi and in industrial countries. Breast milk from one heavily sprayed area had a level of dioxin eight times higher than samples taken from those in Hanoi, and almost five times higher than samples taken from women in the United States.
According to Dr. Dai's report, more recent tests have shown that dioxin levels in the environment and human tissues have decreased over time, while dioxin in commonly used foods has returned to normal. Dr. Dai wrote in his report that areas around former US air bases remain dioxin hot spots. His concerns about base sites are predicated partly on a 1998 environmental assessment of an area around a former US Special Forces base in Aluoi province.
In a report release by the United States Air Force in 2000 stated "this research, constituted the first systematic environmental assessment of residual dioxin's in Vietnam." This was according to David Levy, a scientist involved in the Vietnam study who is vice president for Hatfield Consultants Ltd.
"In one area around the site of the former base, dioxins are present in duck fat and fish fat at high levels," Levy said. Similar concentrations in Canada trigger a regulatory response, such as food consumption advisories and closure of commercial fisheries.
Levy also supports more outside help for research on the effects of Agent Orange in Vietnam.
He said that Vietnam, with the contrast between the unsprayed North and sprayed South, provides what may be the best natural laboratory in the world to study links between exposure to the herbicide and health problems.
It was in 1991 that Army Scientist studies had linked diabetes and dioxin exposure. As you well know diabetes type 1 is usually referred to as juvenile diabetes and diabetes type 2 is often referred to as adult onset diabetes.
Now when a physician diagnoses adult onset insulin dependent diabetes as type 1 that claim is most often turned down as the NAS study indicates only diabetes type 2 is related to Agent Orange exposure.
The Ohio AMVETS News had published an article on diabetes and herbicide exposure written by me in 1986. The National Academy of Sciences did a comprehensive study again in 1998 and former Secretary Togo West rejected the study and had the issue revisited. The diabetes type 2 was again presented to the Acting, VA Secretary Herschel Gober in October of 2000 and Secretary Gober approved the condition November 9th of 2000.
The United States Air Force study released in 2000 proved the Ranch Hand Study was severely flawed and showing a 26% higher rate of heart disorders in those veterans in the study comparison. I have maintained for over a decade the probability of a direct relation of heart disorders and herbicide exposure.
There was also comparison of the birth defect issue which still remains stalled, even though the studies from the National Academy of Science, Institute of Medicine clearly show a higher ratio of incidence for Cerebral Palsy which has been ignored.
There are several issues regarding Agent Orange and additional birth defects, which more than likely, will be brought to the forefront in the next several years of study. Many people do not understand that birth defects are reported to the authorities, at the birth of the child. Thus many defects such as learning disabilities; or sensory impairments may not be discovered for months or years. As a result many birth defects go unreported and these children suffer as a result.
In terms of epidemiology, both prospective studies, similar to the US Air Force Ranch Hand study, and retrospective studies, similar to those carried out by Vietnamese medical scientists, should be done, Levy said. Dr. Cau of Vietnam's 10-80 Committee is not too optimistic about the possibility of establishing causal links that would measure up to Western scientific standards. "A long time has already passed," he said. "Mitigation of Agent Orange's effects on human health and the environment is the goal now."
It is time the Secretary of Veterans Affairs to request the National Academy of Sciences of the Institute of Medicine, to complete research on effects of Agent Orange and the heart. Then properly assist those exposed, or their survivors, to receive just compensation.

The complete article for those interested:
http://www.geocities.com/dave_barker_amvet/AO-Heart.html

In my medical file I found I was tested for AO and the did a chest X-Ray and found my lymph nodes had calcified? I asked my primary care giver what this meant... he said if you start spitting up blood (and other great things) come back and see me?

What does this mean? Really?

I am a Vietnam Veteran whos served in-country.