I have recently volunteered as Honorary Boatswain's mate for NAS Jax, and I have a reference question or two. The only actual Boats on base, while eager to help, is also awfully busy and a hard individual to get a hold of.

I've been doing a bit of online research on knots and fancywork, but I was wondering if anybody can recommend any other good references, either in book form or online. I want to make a lanyard for my pipe and am not only researching technique but tradition as well. There are a few places I've found that sell the lanyards, but I'd feel better about it if I could make on myself. I've also been extremely interested in learning knots, but just don't know exactly where to start without having a seasoned BM readily available.

So, anyway, if anybody has any other recommendations for reference I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks
YN3

Did you go to the boat house over by the air terminal? I had several boatswains working there in 98 - 99.

The BM1 that taught me calls is the only boats working at the sea wall. There are a couple other engineering ratings working down there, and they all tend to work a 0700-1200 schedule. Being the only BM on base also means that he's continually over-booked for various ceremonies and the like. Basically, it just tends to be fairly difficult to match skeds with him for training.

There is a gentleman that shows up here from time to time, uses "oldmusicproject". Check his profile and see if you can use mil.com e-mail to get him. He IS the expert on fancywork and most likely will get you off in the right direction.

A very good web site is Ropers Knots Page .

But the best reference I have found is The Ashley Book of Knots It may be expensive ($50.00 on Amazon) but you may be able to find a cheaper edition on-line.

SM1(SW) Ed

My favorite knot is the Half-a-dozen Half-hitches

Thanks for the replies. I do have one last question, probably a no-brainer but... Where is the best place to get line? Just at a hardware store, craft and hobby store, something like that? I've been practicing on the drawstrings on the blinds at home, and it's been driving my wife crazy.

Thanks!
YN3

I'd give a shot at a commercial fisheries supply store, maybe a yachty supply store, but best bet commercial.

Its referred to as SEINE TWINE, and comes in various sizes, usually numbered #60, or # 120 etc etc.

Lookk for either cotton or a synthtic with a rougher texture. Nylon cam be very slick and sometimes not hold a knot very tight. Anything with POLY in it can also be difficult to hold a tight knot.

I cannot find his site again, but a retired Coastguardsman named Marty Coombs has been an expert for a long time and has/had a great website.

For what it is worth, I used to keep strip of duct tape aroung each pointer finger when pulling taut. Keeps from wearing grooves into the skin. Can be painful until the callous develops.

I found this website over the weekend, created by BMCS(ret.) Brian P. Walsh, that has some useful information.

quote:

For what it is worth, I used to keep strip of duct tape aroung each pointer finger when pulling taut. Keeps from wearing grooves into the skin. Can be painful until the callous develops.

I've played guitar and bass for quite a few years now, but have fallen out of practice and those callouses have gone soft. Can't wait to start building them up again. As always, thanks for the info!

YN3

For reference material, go to Amazon.com and do a search for Hervey Garret (sp?) Smith. He wrote a couple of books, "Marlinespike Seamanship" and "The Arts of the Sailor". Both have excellent illustrations. Also look up Des Pawson - I forget the title, but he has a book on knots with a lot of step-by-step color pictures. Both authors also make mention of some tools you might want to have on hand. Use that as a guide to what you may want to have available. Then see what you can get from supply before you spend your own cash. At the least I'd get a rigger's knife and Leatherman. I also have a Palm, sailmaker needles, vinyl tape, etc., but then that is what I found I needed over the years.

As for the line, before you start buying stuff, see what you can get from the Navy Supply system. It can get expensive quick. After that, I'd suggest someplace like West Marine as well as stores that support boating. I have a variety of both line and small stuff I keep around for various and sundry needs.

Since you are at NAS JAX, stop by the shop where they do parachute repairs and see if they have any scrap small stuff you can get to practice with.

BTW, there is a section in Uniform Regs on the Bos'n Call and lanyard. Use a simple sennet and have a white one for wear with your blues and a black one for wear with your whites.

Also, look up the location of your Navy Operational Support (aka Reserve) Center in JAX and give them a call. They may have a BM in the reserves there that has the skills and will take the time to help you along. You may have to give up a few hours on a weekend unless they can reschedule a drill to come in during the week to help you out. I was a reservist, and was (for all I know still am) the only BM in my area that had the skills the active component needed at the time.

Good luck with your endeavors.

R/
BMC

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Boats22151,

I've sent a message to oldmusicproject. Hopefully he'll drop in with some advice.

Reporting as ordered!

OK: Marty Combs (SK1 USCG ret) is at http://www.knotstuff.com and hase a LOT of books and some nice little tools as well. He is best used for his cotton cordage (#12 thru #120)... I'd think for a lanyard, the smaller the better so I'd go with his #12 (really a #16 or so, but who's arguing?)

For thinner cordage, Trevor Tutt of Texas is a hobbyist ropemaker who is also on "The Trail OF Some Dreadnaught Cord" and is having pretty good success... his site is http://www.oldbelfast.net/ and his line runs about a true #11 or so... (Dreadnaught/Belfast ran at #9 or #8 in the older measurements.... or P.D.S [Pretty Small] in my measurements.) Very nice cordage, albeit a bit pricey, but super construction and finish.

All the above are availiable ONLY in an "Ecru" or "Natural )lite tan)" line colour.

For nylon blind cord in many colours and many sizes, I recommend Ken Burr at http://www.rwrope.com in New Bedford, Ma. Talk to Ken about what's available in 1.2 and 1.4mm for finer sized lanyards and 1.8 for bigger lanyards and belts... Note: this stuff runs in the 3-4 cents a foot range or you can order a "sample" box of line which will give you about #40 of cut ends, off-colours and many sizes for a very small charge. They also carry really fine hemp line and "solution-dyed" nylon blind cord where the colour is permanent and consistant througout the reel... more expensive, but worth it.

True Dreadnaught (Belfast) cord was a three-part miiature rope, right hand laid, dyed one of eight colours and then sized, and sold on 250 to 300 foot balls by many companies, but almost all was made for the P.C.Herwig company by Plymouth Cordage of CT. When they went out of business in the '70's, Herwig followed suit rapidly and the line has not been made or available since then.

I presently have samples of true Dreadnaught with line makers in The Netherlands, Beloruss and the Philippines and am waiting for some responses as to minimum orders, available colours and time of production.

I continue to hope that one of them will be able to come thru and that "the whizzz of the Dreadnaught will once again be heard upon the land", as it were....

For some instruction on various sennits for lanyards and a lot of other fancywork-related drivel, come visit http://www.frayedknotarts.com/tutor1.html

Vince Brennan
Philadelphia

(PS: Anyone going to the Wooden Boat Show this weekend in Mystic...look for me at the Wooden Boat Magazine booth!)

Not to try to outdo a person who likely has a lot more experience at this than I, but I found this site VERY helpful in learning knots. I use it for my Scouts.

What a wonderful thread! Brought back many memories of when I enlisted, and in the Deck Gang, in '50/'51. Thank you "The Cracker" for starting it. And congratulations on making E-4 -last time I looked, you were an E-3.

Having seen some of the fanciwork of OldMusicProject, and others, I can attest that they are true artists. Thanks again for sharing all these wonderful sites.

"Mack the Knife"
CDR USN (Ret)

TMC_SW: No worries, Master Chief! I have Grog's site securely in my links and references page and have had for a while... there are a LOT of great sites out there for knotting... http://www.frayedknotarts.com/tutother.html

Mack the Knife: Thanks for the kind words, Commander! CDR Bob Dollar (USN ret) (at http://www.rwrope.com is another fanatic knot man and a real expert at rigging work... the only other person I've found with "Steel's Elements of Mastmaking" on his desk!

Vince,

Have you tried, or do they even still make " COD LINE ". It is/was a seine twine we used in New England. It was a staple on every "drop Line" fishing jig that every kid on the North Shore used.

I'll bet GerryRM3 knows exactly the stuff I'm thinking of.

Regards

Ah, Master's Mate, would that I could find it. There is only one source for 18 thread codline that I know of, an English company which also makes CARDOC mason's (builder's) line but it's a poor thing... not terribly well or tightly laid, irregular and expensive, to boot! The only two places I find that carry it are in the UK and are charging in excess of £7.50 for 18 metres! (interestingly, the CARDOC line is also 18 metres in length but is under £2 per hank.)

At any rate, the cost, especially with duties and shipping, is prohibitive. Despite my avowed dislike of nylon line, I've gone over to it almost exclusively for Bosun's Lanyards and belts, although bellropes, beckets and the like still get done in cottons...
(http://www.frayedknotarts.com/bellropes.html)

The advent of monofilament lines and specialty fishing lines rather killed off the old types of fishing line. Unfortunate for knotters, but a blessing (one supposes) for fishermen.

Ah, well.

ALCON -

For a lighter side to this thread I recommend you check out the cartoon in the editorial page of Navy Times this week. It should be in the stores today.

quote:

Originally posted by MastersMate:
Vince,

Have you tried, or do they even still make " COD LINE ". It is/was a seine twine we used in New England. It was a staple on every "drop Line" fishing jig that every kid on the North Shore used.

I'll bet GerryRM3 knows exactly the stuff I'm thinking of.

Regards

Sure do but I haven't used it in years. It had it own unique smell as it was treated with tar.
Pulled up many a fish from 300 and 400 feet by hand with the stuff.

Now, there are a few places where you can get a nicely tarred marline Tarsmell.com being the one that leaps to the forefront of my alleged brain. A friend made me a "Nantucket" bracelet out of tarred marline from them, and I found that the smell was just as incredibly pervasive as I had remembered. Indeed, I had to run it thru the washer as SWMBO insisted that it was either that or adios to the bracelet... and even then, I went into a bank wearing it and the teller suddenly raised her head and asked a co-worker, "We don't have a wood fireplace in here, do we?"


Sheesh. Lubbers.

'Nother good knot story:

A. C. Beaudoin was a merchant seaman who went to sea in the 1920's, joined the USN during WWII and was ashore several times TAD beach landing parties all thru the Pacific Campaign, retired again and resumed his magnificent knotwork in the Mystic and Groton Ct areas. After he retired (again!) from Electric Boat in Groton, he had a small shop in Mystic across from the Seaport, where he made frames, lampshades, purses,lanyards, etc. His main claim to fame were his picture frames (one of which is in Graumont's "Encyclopedia" (plate 242) but one day he got to "do it" to the Academy.

They had a knot in the colection that no-one could identify and so they send a very junior Lieutenant up to Mystic to see A.C.

They younker came in, gave him the knot ad said that since they didn;t want to destroy it by taking it apart to see how it was made, they'd hoped Mr. Beaudoin could identify this one-of-a-kind confection for them.

A.C. took the pipe out of his mouth, turned the knot over in his hands and said, "If ye'll look on that pitcher frame a'hint of ye, I b'lieve you'll find forty-two of these here starknots."

The Lieutenant's jaw required brushing off as the floor was a bit dusty.

True, true, according to A.C.'s son.

(Incidentally, I think Murray was an optimist, too!)

This thread sure does bring back some memories. A ship just wasn't complete without the fancy linework on ladder rails and other places.

Cracker, do you mind if I move it to the Naval History forum? Its easier for me to protect it from the automatic pruning that admin does from time to time.