From looking at various books and websites it seems that First Sergeant was the senior most enlisted rank immediately before and during WWII. Were 1SGs also the senior enlisted members of elements larger than a company, or did units larger than a company not have these type of positions?

MIKE

Pre WW2 and early WW2, , Master Sergeant out ranked 1SG.

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Originally posted by azmax64:
Pre WW2 and early WW2, , Master Sergeant out ranked 1SG.

Right, check out “Top Kick” Milton Worden (Burt Lancaster) in From Here to Eternity (1953).

One of my favorite movies… Manly because it shows the Schofield Barracks I always knew and remember from both my Navy and Army days…. (Spent my last TYD trip sleeping out at area X-ray during a big 25th ID Warfighter exercise back in 95).

One of my SubVet buddies has a 1946 copy of the Blue jackets annual. It has the old inverse to what we know now pay and rate/rank scale in it… I’ll barrow it and post the structure if anyone wants to know about it..

Man guys and gals don’t have a clue just how good they have it nowadays….

From what I remember from my Dad's stories, Master Sergeant was the rank, 1SG was a position. The nickname of 'Top Sergeant' an E-8 stems from this era, where Master Sergeant was the highest enlisted rank.

Above the company level, there were 'Sergeant Major' positions, but they were held by Master Sergeants prior to the late 50s (When the rank of E-9 was created).

Sullivan013

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Originally posted by sullivan013:
From what I remember from my Dad's stories, Master Sergeant was the rank, 1SG was a position.

It hasn't changed, Master Sgt E-8/1SG E-8. It's just the assigned position. One has a diamond in the center showing a 1SG's position. At the oubreak of WWII, the first sgt wore three up and two rockers with the 1SG diamond desigate

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Originally posted by SignalSgtWilliams:

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Originally posted by sullivan013:
From what I remember from my Dad's stories, Master Sergeant was the rank, 1SG was a position.

It hasn't changed, Master Sgt E-8/1SG E-8. It's just the assigned position. One has a diamond in the center showing a 1SG's position. At the oubreak of WWII, the first sgt wore three up and two rockers with the 1SG diamond desigate

sullivan is right, before and during WW2 1SG and SGM were positions in a unit and MSG was the rank. Today though a 1SG outranks a MSG in that a 1SG is a command position while MSG is staff and SMG out ranks both.

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Originally posted by McMax:

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Originally posted by SignalSgtWilliams:

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Originally posted by sullivan013:
From what I remember from my Dad's stories, Master Sergeant was the rank, 1SG was a position.

It hasn't changed, Master Sgt E-8/1SG E-8. It's just the assigned position. One has a diamond in the center showing a 1SG's position. At the oubreak of WWII, the first sgt wore three up and two rockers with the 1SG diamond desigate

sullivan is right, before and during WW2 1SG and SGM were positions in a unit and MSG was the rank. Today though a 1SG outranks a MSG in that a 1SG is a command position while MSG is staff and SMG out ranks both.

Sorry, from 1920-1942, a MSG was not the same as 1SG, two different ranks and positions, MSG was one rank higher.
"http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_enlisted_rank_insignia_of_World_War_II"

Prior to WWII there were 6 enlisted grades and 7 ranks. Grade 6(Pvt) being the lowest and grade 1(M/Sgt) being the highest, there were two ranks in grade 2, 1st Sergeant and Tech Sergeant. In 1942 grade one was both Master Sergeant and 1st Sergeant. In 1948 the enlisted grades were changed to seven, with Pvt as grade 7 and Master Sergeant as grade 1,with 1st Sergeant being an occupational postition. In 1951 the grades were reversed so that E-1 was the lowest and E-7 was the highest, 1st Sergeant was still an occupational position.
In 1958 the grades of E-8 and 9 were authorized with E-8 being either the rank of 1st Sergeant or Master Sergeant, with the 1SG outranking the MSG, The grade of E-9 was Sergeant Major which was the highest enlisted rank, later around 1968 the rank of Command Sergeant Major was created for SGM's who were the senior NCO's at Battalion Level or higher.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: rangerdoug,

Back in 1973 I was station with a guy who was a POW in WW11. At that time he was a SP/3.(WW11) He did make it to SP/4 when I met him. He retired in 1973 also and they promoted him to SP/5 for his retirement present.

They knock him for one day of bad time back(upon retirement) in WW11 for after he was released from POW status he took a day or two off..hahahahaha...The good old Army nail him for it.

I would also like to mention that the enlisted ranks were awarded on a unit level and if a soldier transfered to another unit his rank did not go with him. For example a 1SG who was transfered to another company, had to start all over as a Pvt. there were, as usual, exceptions, but this policy continued until, I believe, 1948.
The Army was the only service with this policy.

Rangerdoug- the Marines did the same thing prior to WWII- you could be transferred in grade (rank) to an new unit, or you could be transfered to fill an open slot- meaning a CPL might PCS in grade as a CPL or transfer to fill a PFC slot and lose a stripe!.

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Originally posted by lovatscot:
Rangerdoug- the Marines did the same thing prior to WWII- you could be transferred in grade (rank) to an new unit, or you could be transfered to fill an open slot- meaning a CPL might PCS in grade as a CPL or transfer to fill a PFC slot and lose a stripe!.

Thanks for the info.
My Dad transfered as a corporal in the Field Artillery to Tank Destoyers in 1943. He joined the unit as a PVT, but because in was just organizing and as a corporal he had had some leadership experience, he was promoted to Staff Sergeant about a month later. He never held the rank of Sergeant. A Staff Sergeant who had also transfered from the Signal Corps was promoted to 1SG.

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Originally posted by SignalSgtWilliams:

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Originally posted by McMax:

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Originally posted by SignalSgtWilliams:

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Originally posted by sullivan013:
From what I remember from my Dad's stories, Master Sergeant was the rank, 1SG was a position.

It hasn't changed, Master Sgt E-8/1SG E-8. It's just the assigned position. One has a diamond in the center showing a 1SG's position. At the oubreak of WWII, the first sgt wore three up and two rockers with the 1SG diamond desigate

sullivan is right, before and during WW2 1SG and SGM were positions in a unit and MSG was the rank. Today though a 1SG outranks a MSG in that a 1SG is a command position while MSG is staff and SMG out ranks both.

Sorry, from 1920-1942, a MSG was not the same as 1SG, two different ranks and positions, MSG was one rank higher.
"http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_enlisted_rank_insignia_of_World_War_II"

Per the TIOH, from 1920 to 1942 the regulation was as follows:

1920. The number of insignia was reduced to seven and six pay grades were established. War Department Circular No. 303, dated 5 August 1920, stated the chevrons would be worn on the left sleeve, point up, and to be made of olive drab material on a background of dark blue. The designs and titles were as follows:

Master Sergeant (First Grade): Three chevrons, and an arc of three bars, the upper bar of arc forming a tie to the lower chevron.

Technical Sergeant (Second Grade): Three chevrons, and an arc of two bars, the upper bar of arc forming a tie to the lower chevron.

First Sergeant (Second Grade): Three chevrons, and an arc of two bars, the upper bar of arc forming a tie to the lower chevron. In the angle between lower chevron and upper bar a lozenge.

Staff Sergeant (Third Grade): Three chevrons and an arc of one bar, forming a tie to the lower chevron.

Sergeant (Fourth Grade): Three chevrons.

Corporal (Fifth Grade): Two chevrons.

Privates First Class (Sixth Grade): One chevron.

“http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/”