Looking for comments on that statement (for Buckley, AS I WROTE IT; NOT as he read it )
The natural flow of immigration, over time, in controlled numbers, is good for the country. And it's the right thing to do, because we are all world peoples.
However, the flood of foreigners who come here, stay here, in huge numbers, who didn't go to school here, who haven't learned our history, who don't understand our culture, or even our language, who just want a job or a handout, in my view, dilute our national culture. (Whew! That was some long statement)
I'm not even 100% sure that diluting the culture is necessarily a bad thing. I just believe it happens, and if it's not understood, there could be unintended consiquences. I believe there is good reason to control our immigration, to avoid just this problem.
Is it important that immigrants understand the struggle to make this country? Is it important that immigrants understand our language or culture? Is it important that immigrants understand our history?
Consider, in 10 years we will have upwards 10,000,000 instant new citizens, along with all the others who come here legally in the meantime. Think suddenly adding 10,000,000+ new citizens can disrupt the country? Think it will dilute our national culture? Think they have embraced our culture, or just expect us to change to match theirs?
I don't know about the handout part but the guys I work with who won't learn English complain that we should learn Spanish given there's so many of them on the jobsite now.
We tell them three things:
1. English is the language of business here so if they really want to make money they've got to be able to effectively communicate with their bosses and coworkers so everyone is on the same page and less people get hurt.
2. As long as they can only speak Spanish they're stuck working in Spanish speaking areas which limits their opportunities to work other places where they can actually make 50% more money. Their eyes always grow real wide when we tell them about solar and water treatment.
3. If they truly want their Children to have a better life than they do they've got to be able to speak with their teachers otherwise their Kids will lack a good education and they'll end up working the trades just like their Spanish only speaking parents.
Needless to say a lot of them immediately sign up for English classes at the trade's school.
As for diluting our culture? I guess that's a way to look at it if one group moves in with sufficient numbers to make an impact. Here we have so many different people from all over no one makes that much difference.
|"Highly Experienced Member"|
Legal immigration is mostly good, it really cannot be said for illegal immigration..consider that in the first minute upon setting foot on US soil they have done what ..
I have quite a few friends and acquaintances who have quite good jobs (even vital jobs for some of them) whose parents immigrated here years ago and still can't speak English. My ex, for example, is a decorated retired Navy doctor who has saved the lives of more than a few Marines. Her mother was a mail-order bride who still can't speak English.
I commiserate with my Brit friends when we discuss Islamic immigrants who espouse a forceful conversion of the UK to Sharia Law (and the neighborhoods where it holds sway today), but I feel that if a person can contribute to the American society, then he or she should not have English-speaking as a requirement.
Highly Experienced Member
14000 posts as Cider33Alpha
WHAT "national culture"? Southerners are very different from Westerners, who in turn are quite different from New Englanders or Midwesterners or Texans.
We are a polyglot nation, united by a single Constitution and, eventually, one language. We have an illegal immigration problem that is wreaking havoc with our economy and legal system, but the numbers of LEGAL immigrants, here for study or to become citizens, are no more unmanageable than they were in the days when Italians, Irish or eastern European Jews were the pariahs, long before Hispanics took over that dubious distinction.
It has been my experience and I bear testimony to witnessing the problematic behavior of non-assimilation. Where I live we have a large influx of Brazilians and quite often I see and hear incidents whereas they pretend they do not understand English to attempt to gain an advantage. All to often they use the mask of not speaking English to excuse discourteous and at times outright rude behavior.
It may be simple subtleties a majority of the time, cutting in line, speaking loudly on a cell phone and holding up a line, verbally insulting people under the guise of their native tongue.
For those who are unfamiliar with me and already preparing a reply claiming me to be a bigot, hold on, because others here know that I will not and do not speak of which I do not know. I dated a girl for three years whom spoke fluent Spanish in her household, (and wait before you rush to) Brazilians don't speak Spanish, they speak Portuguese.
Yes, I am aware, my family had a Brazilian exchange student live with us for one year.
In relation to the original topic, the majority refuse to assimilate, do not want to, do not seek citizenship and for the most part run out/over-stay their visas and live at ease, without the threat of deportation in a state like Massachusetts, which I refer to as BHO's petri dish.
When people come here and they have no vested interest in this country, other than to make money and send the lion share of it out of the country, it's not just poor citizenship, it's economically damaging.
When people refuse to become American, it under-cuts the culture. Instead of melding their culture with American ideals they degrade the community and incur expenses to all taxpayers with something as simple as not speaking English in their home, therefore, making ESL programs in public schools a mainstay because their children experience difficulty due to their choice to not assimilate.
I have only given a couple examples and just barely scratched the surface and used Brazilians as an example, but a few other ethnicities would fit just as well.
And, yes there are rude and obnoxious naturally born Americans, so we certainly do not have a need to add more, that never intend to have pride in or become an American.
Both my wife and my son are proud, naturalized American citizens.
I don't think that there is any question about the fact that our culture is being diluted. Those Italians, Irish and eastern European Jews assimilated into our society as a part of the mixing pot effect. But what we see today is far more of a fragmentation and dilution of the American culture.
TPThis message has been edited. Last edited by: Press_ie,
Playing dumb doesn't suit you. Oh! You weren't playing?
Perhaps you just need a reading primer. May I suggest: http://www.amazon.com/Alpha-Phonics-Primer-For-Beginning-Readers/dp/0941995003
EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. I see you are NOT one of the reading dysfunctional that just like to argue to be arguing.
Americans have a national culture. All examples that you have given are differences in the American culture that do not define them as a separate and different entity. If a person moves from Chicago to Waco, Tx, there may be some accent differences and attitude differences, but that person is still an American with language similarities, albeit with a different accent. If there were no "national culture", I would think legal immigration applications would drop dramatically. You actually defined the national culture in your own post.
Open borders can eliminate poverty worldwide and double the global GDP while the already prosperous remain prosperous. Google "open borders" to see the research supporting the idea.
Europe tried the great experiment of "open borders" and they are regretting it. Some are trying to undo it. It's caused havoc across Europe.
and here was another story about problems of open borders.
Europe is finding out that open borders causes more problems and fixes few.
|I want a SARGE!|
I agree that if people that want to come here to live and work. they should learn to speak english and learn or culture. If they have no interest this, there is no sence of them being here, poluting our way of life.
the one thing i like about the Spanish speaking peoples, is that they don't know i speak it quite well after more than 3 years in Spain. I caught quite a few trying to talk about me, thinking i didn't understand them. Tore quite a few of them a new azzhole and put them on the spot.
By the way, I'm not talking about controlled, monitored, legal immigration. I'm talking about the "flood" to make immigration easier and allowing more in too quickly.
It used to be that we expected a real "desire" to become citizens. We expected immigrants to want to become "Americans". We expected them to assimilate into our culture. We expected them to show allegiance to this country.
Today, we seem to be saying, "anyone can come, even if your intent (or the effect) is to destroy America".
A slight exaggeration but that is the trend.
You obviously did not take my advice and read the research.
It is possible, even necessary, to control immigration, even improve the quality of immigrants and speed the process of assimilation. Simply throwing open the gates, as Europe did, is not the way to go about it.
Throwing open the gates is the right and moral thing to do but providing a free lunch to those who pass through is not.
In all fairness, this post is rather well thought-out and written. I personally think that "dilution" is merely evolution, but I can't take any issue with your post.
Highly Experienced Member
14000 posts as Cider33Alpha
^^^ Well said, reconcolonel.
(What's your problem, Ips? I wasn't insulting you or your post. I asked a question and got attacked for it. WTF?)
Now Lieutenant Colonels are jumping in with "WTF"???
You're assimilating into our society pretty well there Cider. Before you know it you'll get rid of the "US Army" on your field blouse and replace it with an iron on "USMC" on your left breast pocket. Daaayyymmm we corrupt them in this hootch.
|"Highly Experienced Member"|
Well said in the second part- much of Europe's recent immigration is a dismal failure, there is success too though, however the Muslims for instance in many places are unable, or many just unwilling to really assimilate into the local culture- this is reflected all over Europe and often brushed over by politicians and most media there.
Same too of many Africans that get over- leaving their self ruled countries of endless stupid government & continued economic failure, for the economic success (so called) of Europe- many end up being on the dole of some sort, common criminals, or prostitutes- it is a sad situation..
Ips quite often attacks the poster and not the post. Of course, then he posts saying not to take it personally.
That reminds me of an NJP I had to run on a Marine. He was charged with calling his platoon sergeant a "f-ing motherf--r as---e ...." He seemed perplexed as to the charges as he looked at me, and I believe sincerely, pointed out to me that he prefaced the rant with "With all due respect."
I don't mind the inaction as far as assimilating so much. I rather enjoy going to Chinatown, Little Saigon, etc. Their children all assimilate, at least.
What I do mind are the attempts to change the adopted society to match the home one. Muslim immigrants to Dearborn seem to exist pretty much in harmony, and their crime rates are low in comparison to the rest of the region. However, in the UK, they have enacted Sharia law as a fait accompli in 60+ neighborhoods and openly declare that they will use force, if necessary, to bring about Sharia law as the only law of the the UK.
Things like killing daughters who "shame" the family, keeping kids out of school, violating health laws in the slaughter of animals (a big problem in NYC) and such a defending them as "cultural" rights are all examples of things gone too far. Assimilate or don't assimilate, but don't contravene exiting laws and ordinances.
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