RE: http://www.military.com/opinio...15202,203317,00.html

I thinks this guy needs to go back to Germany where he came from.

Agreed, real tired of hearing this non-vet idiot who knows all- What Lands are we occupying?- We occupied Germany & Japan tillthey got a gov't up and running. Iraq has a gov't, so does Afghanistan- don't recall beating anyone eles and "occupying" their country!

This guy may think he's proving a point but he's not on the ground. McChrystal is in the thick of it and he knows what we need to win. So I say give it to him!!

quote:

Originally posted by lovatscot:
Agreed, real tired of hearing this non-vet idiot who knows all- What Lands are we occupying?- We occupied Germany & Japan tillthey got a gov't up and running. Iraq has a gov't, so does Afghanistan- don't recall beating anyone eles and "occupying" their country!

The US is still occupying German and Japan. Anytime one nation has an armed force stationed on another nation's sovereign territory, it's called "occupation". Doesn't matter what BS words we use to justify our presence. The US military is not in Germany or Japan to defend their liberty - our soldiers are there for purely self-centered geopolitical reasons. We have been occupying parts of S. Korea since 1950 for absolutely no reason other than to have our presence known on the peninsula. We tried our best to establish a permanent occupation in Vietnam, but our military was soundly defeated by the NVA and VC. We invaded Iraq for no reason and attempted to establish a permanent occupation there, including a monstrous multi-billion dollar embassy from which to direct more covert military action in the Stans, but we have been soundly defeated there also. Now the US wants to secure pipeline passages through AStan, but we will be soundly defeated there also. Our best bet is to bring the troops home and have them act as an occupation force against our own people. The subjucators deserve a little subjucation of their own.

Won't get in an agrumrnt w/misanthrope- but heard this same drivel for leftist professors when in college in the early 70's- Germany & Japan- troops there under treaty and have been reduced greatly after the threat of the USSR world dominion slacked off, and their own military greatly out numbers our troops in country. South Korea- the UN and US are still at war with N.Korea- it's a truce- not a treaty= NPK still threatens to unite both Korea's using force! And now he wants to violate the law br having troops subjugate legal citizens? Phew!

quote:

Originally posted by lovatscot:
Won't get in an agrumrnt w/misanthrope- but heard this same drivel for leftist professors when in college in the early 70's- Germany & Japan- troops there under treaty and have been reduced greatly after the threat of the USSR world dominion slacked off, and their own military greatly out numbers our troops in country. South Korea- the UN and US are still at war with N.Korea- it's a truce- not a treaty= NPK still threatens to unite both Korea's using force! And now he wants to violate the law br having troops subjugate legal citizens? Phew!

Won't get in an argument w/lovascot - but a lot of the "drivel" I learned was from professional soldiers with much more experience than I had, better education than I have, and a whole lot of common sense (which some say I don't have). There are varying opinions based on one's experiences, exposure to indigenous peoples and their cultures, education (not necessarily formal) and one's perspectives. The point is we can be on opposite sides of an issue but still respect one another's right to have an opinion that differs from our own. I have learned much from the military folks on this forum and continue to try to keep an open mind.

Agreed about an open mind- but my websters' says to occupy is to take possesion of- neither which we did in Germany or Japan once they elected their own gov'ts. Our law prohibits our armed forces from police action inside this country which would include subjugation. I figured that 20+ yrs made me a professional soldier, attending classes up to and at the SMA Academy, and serving/trained on 6 continents and in 30+ countries. My problem is with you're subjugation remarks and your idea of occupation. USSR occupied East Germany, Czechoslovia, Hungary and the rest of the Iron Curtain; China occupies Tibet & Manchuria- show me what nations we stationed forces in under treaties that we then established martial law and quelled uprisings in, please? If you can't then you may assume I disagree with your remarks, not your right to say them, nor my right to say I think they aren't right!.

quote:

Originally posted by lovatscot:
Agreed about an open mind- but my websters' says to occupy is to take possesion of- neither which we did in Germany or Japan once they elected their own gov'ts. Our law prohibits our armed forces from police action inside this country which would include subjugation. I figured that 20+ yrs made me a professional soldier, attending classes up to and at the SMA Academy, and serving/trained on 6 continents and in 30+ countries. My problem is with you're subjugation remarks and your idea of occupation. USSR occupied East Germany, Czechoslovia, Hungary and the rest of the Iron Curtain; China occupies Tibet & Manchuria- show me what nations we stationed forces in under treaties that we then established martial law and quelled uprisings in, please? If you can't then you may assume I disagree with your remarks, not your right to say them, nor my right to say I think they aren't right!.

I admit that occupation and subjucation are inappropriate terms. Makes the US look like the bad guys. I was wrong and I apologize. I respect your 20+ years service and obvious experience. I served in Korea, Germany and Vietnam and know that the intentions and service of most American military was and continues to be honorable.

So, ah, how many of our troops have been killed by German insurgents since our occupation of that country (there were afew SS Werwolves post surrender for afew months...read the history of how that was handled)? Ditto Japan.

If you do not understand the difference between what transpired with Japan and Germany post WW 2 and the US policy pertaining to warfare since Korea...you need to do some reading/research.

S/F Gordon
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quote:

Originally posted by lovatscot:
Agreed, real tired of hearing this non-vet idiot who knows all- What Lands are we occupying?- We occupied Germany & Japan tillthey got a gov't up and running. Iraq has a gov't, so does Afghanistan- don't recall beating anyone eles and "occupying" their country!

Understand Misanthrope- my words get jumbled up on more than one occassion- Gordon- What are you talking about- It took approx 18 mths to clear enough Germans to let them set up a Govt- I think Japan had their constitution within 2 yrs- up to that time any attackers would be considered non surrendered combantants after that they would be rebels or insurgents- my opinion.

lovatscot
Posted Fri 16 October 2009 08:10 AM
Understand Misanthrope- my words get jumbled up on more than one occassion-

Gordon- What are you talking about- It took approx 18 mths to clear enough Germans to let them set up a Govt

First elections occured in Germany, March, 1946, Japan 1946...not sure of the month...but you seem to forget, Germany and Japan were unconditional surrenders and the decision was to establish four areas that would be run under the governments of the Allied powers (US, British, French and Russian) and each would establish government control of their respective areas.

The main reason the Allies had the gift of time was simple...there were no insurgent, guerilla, splinter groups constantly attacking Allied troops and citizens. There was a brief time post surrender where a few staunch SS troops attacked Allied troops but they were easily dealt with and were gone before the end of 1945. In Japan there was total surrender to the US with MacArthur dictating the new Japanese constitution and their government format.

In both instances, legitimate governments were established and the Marshall Plan was instituted. In neither country did there exist massive resistance to the establishment of new governments...no war lords, no terrorists, no drug cartels as is the case with Afghanistan, no religious/religion impeding progress...and in general, both the Germans and Japanese were eager to move on, rebuild their country and move on into the new progressive world living in peace. None of these things exist in either Iraq or Afghanistan. Their populations for the most part are wired differently with little concept, thought or a feeling of need to fall in line with Western thought and philososphy...and with most not wanting to change, we can remain there for another decade, two decades, ten decades and all we will see are further casualties and taxpayers money disappearing down a sink hole.

Anyone, politician or military has deluded themselves into thinking and believing they can somehow change things in Iraq or Afghanistan despite ALL of the impediments historically and religiously that exist in either country. On that basis alone, the decision to become involved in Iraq or Afghanistan was made due to; 1.) Ego's/testosterone...2.) Selling out to justify their existence...3.) They were collectively insane. Take your pick...but the decisions were certainly not rational, were devoid of any intellectual analysis, and ignored the historical record of both countries.

S/F Gordon
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I think Japan had their constitution within 2 yrs- up to that time any attackers would be considered non surrendered combantants after that they would be rebels or insurgents- my opinion.

Covered above............