quote:

Originally posted by AGBrina:
It is just a number! Losing 4,500 men per week in a global war against chauvinist aggression is a just cost. Losing 4o00 over 5 years in this unnecessary war of choice is just a waste!

For you to say that they're loss was a waste is dispicable. Some of those killed just happen to come from my small hometown where I currently reside. I happen to have known them and their families. Their families are proud and honored of their son's ultimate sacrifice. Foir you to say that it was a waste, your so forttunate you aren't in front of me right now. Take that for what it's worth. It's not just your opinion or freedom of speach either. That is a disgraceful comment.

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Originally posted by MarkAntney:

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Originally posted by 10934224: WE WILL WIN IN SPITE OF THE SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS.

The SOCIALIST Democrats didn't go before the globe and presented a Case the REST of the globe didn't buy into.

Name-calling and blame-gaming amounts to putting politics ahead of the soldiers & does *NOT* help win the war.

We must not let our politicians (in either party) get away with name-calling and blame-gaming, and neither should we do it among ourselves.

The surge is ending and we are not yet winning. Meanwhile our troops are still fighting and taking casualties every day. What is "Plan B"?

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Originally posted by rkgtactical:

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Originally posted by ChuckSherwin:
To "avoid" the draft: Tell the doctor at the induction center that you cannot wait to get to boot camp so you can shower with all those young men all standing around, wet, supple, virile, all rubbing themselves with soap... Or, one better: offer the doctor a "toot" and make him enforce the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. God, I hope there are no women reading this; I'm sorry, up front, if there is but when one has to avoid the draft, these are two methods that would work.

If Obama gets in office, they'll hand the recruit a bar of soap and put him at the front of the line.

if McCain get's in office, they'll hand the American Public a bar of soap...and there won't be a line.

You people that are against going into a country for military reasons is one thing, but to NOT want to go into a country for humanitarian reasons, well, you're just cowards. How would you feel if no one came for you?

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Yea! right, start the daraft and increase stockades (jails-for those who may not know) to hold the AWOLS >Do they still call it that?
This will require more personnel to guard, etc;
I say eithr commit to win or get the **#%* out.
Good reports may be accurate, but remember body counts in Nam.
But, what does an old-old NCO know?

My sentiments exactly Sergeant Major. Once you're in, commit to win.

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Originally posted by 6837602:

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Originally posted by MarkAntney:

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Originally posted by FortesFortunaJuvat:

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Originally posted by 6837602:


We need a draft and we need it now.

Too easy to get out of. All you have to do is go see a shrink and tell him you've been thinking about killing yourself, get a perscription for crazy pills, and you're out of the draft

We had that discussion before in class and everyone there knew how to get out of it

I don't think it would be that easy and if it were, wouldn't it ALSO limit those (YOUNGINs) that would pursue OTHER careers?

"perscription for crazy pills"
Ok mark them as crazy for life no career

after they do their obligation in the military they can have a career.

Negative

They won't be able to buy a handgun or have a CCW. Or work for law enforcement. That's about it

It really dosent matter who gets in office the fact is we are at war with Al Quadia, how that person deals with the next attack on our country well have to deal with it. God help us if we get another Jimmy Carter.

quote:

Originally posted by rkgtactical:
You people that are against going into a country for military reasons is one thing, but to NOT want to go into a country for humanitarian reasons, well, you're just cowards. How would you feel if no one came for you?

Do you really believe that was the EMPHASIS of the case we made to go into Iraq; Humanitarian?

If so, you do know there's an extensive list of countries with the SAME "type" of crisis, is Iraq the begining of an ultimate goal of ridding the planet of Evil Dictators?

We went in to disarm Iraq of something they apparently didn't have and we've never addressed it outside of "We shoulda done it anyway"...

But somehow that bumper sticker ("Shoulda Done it Anyway") doesn't look very NOble under a yellow "Support the troops" car Magnet.

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Originally posted by usmc_family:

quote:

Originally posted by MarkAntney:

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Originally posted by 10934224: WE WILL WIN IN SPITE OF THE SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS.

The SOCIALIST Democrats didn't go before the globe and presented a Case the REST of the globe didn't buy into.

Name-calling and blame-gaming amounts to putting politics ahead of the troop & does *NOT* help win the war.

The surge is ending and we are not yet winning. Meanwhile our troops are still fighting and taking casualties every day. What is "Plan B"?

That's simple. "Plan B" is to stall for time and drop the entire disaster in the lap of the next administration. I'm begining to think it would be best to make sure the republicans do retain the presidency. It's time they accept responsibility for what they've done. Here's a thought, lets keep them in office and just ride this bad boy out to it's logical conclussion. It would be interesting to watch Barbara Bush saying "Let them eat cake, afterall they were underprivilaged and this is working out for them very nicely" on national television just before the axe falls.

quote:

Originally posted by rkgtactical:

quote:

Originally posted by AGBrina:
It is just a number! Losing 4,500 men per week in a global war against chauvinist aggression is a just cost. Losing 4o00 over 5 years in this unnecessary war of choice is just a waste!

For you to say that they're loss was a waste is dispicable. Some of those killed just happen to come from my small hometown where I currently reside. I happen to have known them and their families. Their families are proud and honored of their son's ultimate sacrifice. Foir you to say that it was a waste, your so forttunate you aren't in front of me right now. Take that for what it's worth. It's not just your opinion or freedom of speach either. That is a disgraceful comment.

Some had family members that died and they thought it was a waste. Is their comment also disgraceful and doesn't count? This war in Iraq, is more of a waste then Nam was. 58,209 of my brothers and sisters paid the price for that mistake. Will we still be in Iraq when 4,000 becomes 50,000?

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Originally posted by usmc_family:

quote:

Originally posted by MarkAntney:

quote:

Originally posted by 10934224: WE WILL WIN IN SPITE OF THE SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS.

The SOCIALIST Democrats didn't go before the globe and presented a Case the REST of the globe didn't buy into.

Name-calling and blame-gaming amounts to putting politics ahead of the soldiers & does *NOT* help win the war.

We must not let our politicians (in either party) get away with name-calling and blame-gaming, and neither should we do it among ourselves.

The surge is ending and we are not yet winning. Meanwhile our troops are still fighting and taking casualties every day. What is "Plan B"?

I FULLY agree with your intent (focus on the troops, mission, positive outcome *if possible?*) but I highly disagree on the point of ALLOWING others to purposely DEFLECT the accountability/responsibility to someone else.

I don't have to call someone I disagree with, names and usually when I do, it's a reaction, not an action.

Blaming this debacle on "SOCIAList" Democrats, is akin to blaming IRAQ for 9/11

Allowing any debate, discussion, ARGUMENT to go forward with such a FalseHood (or stretch to the POINT of comedic relief) in no way helps that cause.

If that person even has one (cause)?

Oh, Plan "B" is apparently Blame any and everyone OTHER than those Responsible.

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Originally posted by phillystake:
It really dosent matter who gets in office the fact is we are at war with Al Quadia, how that person deals with the next attack on our country well have to deal with it. God help us if we get another Jimmy Carter.

Say what you want about Carter but he was given 2 choices by the joint chiefs when the Iranians took the hostages.
1. Do nothing. we don't have the special ops capabilities to mount a rescue.
2. Nuke Tehran. Now you might be OK with that, but I think most Americans are not anxious be the only country (again), to use nukes. Besides we'd have killed our own people.
What he did was to choose option 3, which was to create Delta Force and the Army Rapid Depoyment units.
You may not like Carter for any number of reasons:
1. Too religious
2. Democrat
3. Veteran (good thing swiftboat vets for truth weren't around yet)
4. Peanut Farmer
5. From Georgia
6. Created the Department of Energy to make the US energy independent by 2000. Pretty much discarded by later administrations.
But I really believe given what he was delt (including recovery from Vietnam), he tried.
This administration's answer to The Iran Hostage Crisis would probably have been to invade Mexico. Then we could elect McCain to keep us in Tijuana for the next 100 years.

1) Yes, 4000 is "just a number." But "4000 dead service men and women" is not.
2) Had there been a "draft" in place there might not have been a war. For those of us with "Draft Cards" in the late '60's and early '70's, the debate on stopping The Draft was overwhelmingly political. Initially there was "The Lottery" which "got rid of half the problem" ... many with high Lottery numbers just sighed relief and went on with their lives. When The Draft was ended, if I remember right, it was openly understood that an "all volunteer" Military might be "too loyal" to the President. The Draftee was also called a "citizen soldier" and provided a counterpoint to the "Regular Army" folks regarding calls to arms. If anyone remembers differently, please let me know.
3) Human societies find meaning in numbers, in "milestones." We've reached another "milestone." How's the journey going so far?
4) Whether we are for this involvement in Iraq or against it, let us all be united in our compassion for tens of thousands of families who have suffered, especially the now 4000 families who have suffered most dearly. It is up to the rest of us to make this right.

Today the media and their spin or body count of the Iraqi war we are currently engaged in is totally counterproductive. To start WAR, any War is barbaric in nature. None is acceptable but as the human species has evolved, he finds himself getting long with his fellow man harder and harder to do. We have developed untold items to kill our fellow man. How sad but warring and killing has been part of our our “MO” for a very long time now.

A quick look at today’s war, headlines of today “Death Count at 4000 for the US”. No matter how you spin it, that is very sad. In war, there are truly no winners. This war has been ongoing for about 5 years now. That means that on average, for 5 years, we have lost about 2.2 combatants a day.

In the Viet Nam War (1965-73) the death count was 58,000, 2,000 missing and 305,000 wounded. That war lasted 8 years and resulted in approximately 20 deaths a day of US military personnel. All told with our Allies there were 314,000 killed and 1,490,000 wounded.

In Korea (1950-53), there were 36,516 military killed with 92,134 wounded, 8,176 MIA and 7,245 POW’s. That was about 33.3 deaths daily.

In WW II (1939-45) the US military death count was 416,800 with 683,846 wounded. That was about 190.3 deaths a day! Allied forces lost a total of 14,000,000 military with most of this death count being Russian.

History shows us that WAR is tragic and barbaric but the US has been engaged in wars for a very long time. However, looking at the historical data, the Iraqi War is rather “gentle” when compared to wars past. However, you would never realize it by reading the newspapers and listening to the TV. Why is that? Why does the media slant the information they feel is news worthy just to sell themselves and upset the population? Why are we so gullible to read and believe what we read?

Lastly, we the United States have been very lucky with our wars. We have always fought them on someone else’s turf, never here, never house to house here. We are lucky in that standpoint. However, if we do not win in Iraqi and Afghanistan, I feel we will soon be fighting here in the US State to State, City to City and house to house. We must never forget that and we should call upon the media to tell the real story, such as it is.

That is how I see it...how do you see it?

quote:

Originally posted by phillystake:
It really dosent matter who gets in office the fact is we are at war with Al Quadia, how that person deals with the next attack on our country well have to deal with it. God help us if we get another Jimmy Carter.

Amen! I wish Jimmy earl would invest his time in something useful like trying to convert Helmand from growing poppies to growing peanuts...

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Originally posted by F22Flighttester: That is how I see it...how do you see it?

With respect, what I see is yet another post that cherry-picked facts to reach an ideologically predetermined conclusion.

This too-common practice has been a disaster for the war and for our soldiers.

quote:

Originally posted by bwf27:
1) Yes, 4000 is "just a number." But "4000 dead service men and women" is not.
2) Had there been a "draft" in place there might not have been a war. For those of us with "Draft Cards" in the late '60's and early '70's, the debate on stopping The Draft was overwhelmingly political. Initially there was "The Lottery" which "got rid of half the problem" ... many with high Lottery numbers just sighed relief and went on with their lives. When The Draft was ended, if I remember right, it was openly understood that an "all volunteer" Military might be "too loyal" to the President. The Draftee was also called a "citizen soldier" and provided a counterpoint to the "Regular Army" folks regarding calls to arms. If anyone remembers differently, please let me know.
3) Human societies find meaning in numbers, in "milestones." We've reached another "milestone." How's the journey going so far?
4) Whether we are for this involvement in Iraq or against it, let us all be united in our compassion for tens of thousands of families who have suffered, especially the now 4000 families who have suffered most dearly. It is up to the rest of us to make this right.

Excuse me for jumping in here in the middle of this interesting Blog. However, I am at a loss trying to understand what is being said. You talk of the draft and needing one. Well I am a product of the time frame when we had a draft. We (the USA) was engaged in a very unpopular war (Viet Nam). The numbers required to fight this war were very high and those volunteering to go and fight were low as a result of it’s unpopularity. When this country enters into a conflict and there are not enough military to fight it, they have a draft. I was drafted; I DID NOT WANT TO GO!! But I did, I joined and got a choice where if I had waited for the draft I got no choice. There were many others who joined but not nearly enough. Today, there are waiting lines to get into the military, by choice not by draft. All services are doing OK in terms of enlistments. You can interpret that in many ways. One way is saying there are a lot of men and women who believe in this country and what it takes to keep it free. They are supportive and show their support by joining the military. They all know, everyone of them know, we are at war and their butts stand a good chance of going to the big sandbox, yet they still come in good numbers to serve. Why do we need a draft? We do not need for force these young AMERICANS to stand up for their country; they are doing it on their own accord. When I left to go and do my part, I was spit on when I walked through San Francisco Airport. When I came home, I was again welcomed by those who accused me of things I did not do and again spit on me. You do not see that today, our military are sent off with pride and welcomed home as hero’s. The killing and dieing are the same, of both the combatants and the innocent. However, today we see how easy it would be to be fighting here (after 9/11) and our whole attitude has changed without the draft without being forced to go. There is once again pride in America and being an AMERICAN in or out of uniform.

When an article like this says, "Rockets & mortars pounded the green zone...", can anyone that has been over there translate what this actually means?

quote:

Originally posted by Ol_Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by phillystake:
It really dosent matter who gets in office the fact is we are at war with Al Quadia, how that person deals with the next attack on our country well have to deal with it. God help us if we get another Jimmy Carter.

Say what you want about Carter but he was given 2 choices by the joint chiefs when the Iranians took the hostages.
1. Do nothing. we don't have the special ops capabilities to mount a rescue.
2. Nuke Tehran. Now you might be OK with that, but I think most Americans are not anxious be the only country (again), to use nukes. Besides we'd have killed our own people.
What he did was to choose option 3, which was to create Delta Force and the Army Rapid Depoyment units.
You may not like Carter for any number of reasons:
1. Too religious
2. Democrat
3. Veteran (good thing swiftboat vets for truth weren't around yet)
4. Peanut Farmer
5. From Georgia
6. Created the Department of Energy to make the US energy independent by 2000. Pretty much discarded by later administrations.
But I really believe given what he was delt (including recovery from Vietnam), he tried.
This administration's answer to The Iran Hostage Crisis would probably have been to invade Mexico. Then we could elect McCain to keep us in Tijuana for the next 100 years.

Funny how it took just one Republican to say if the hostages arnt relesed by the time I take office the Marines and the bombers are on there way. Ronald Reagan did what Carter couldent do for how meny days get real.

The lost of one hurts just as much as the loss of 4000, when they are are friends, buddies and comrades- but they died doing their duty, which make them our heroes. Its amazing of the media jumps on numbers 4000 KIA in 5 yrs, 12 billon $ spent per month in their leftist agenda. How conviently they forget other numbers like the latest DOT & AAA report- 43000 dead in one yr, $13.6 million per month lost due to freaking car wrecks each year. Hell in the 80's we were losing almost as many people to auto accidents as we lost during the entire Vietnam war! Has anyone paid higher taxes or done with out to pay for this war? Have Americans gone to rationing like we did in WWII? Hell, no, the average American only believes what they are told by the media- it took our nation over 8 yrs to form the Gov't we have know after proclaiming Independence, we fought a civil war for 4 years with 10 yrs of reconstruction (some say occupation) for differences in government ideology. Let's give Iraq a chance for get stablized and then come home, so our comrades will not have died in vain for the blasted politicans!