I knew all along that PD was an anti-semite, skinhead, Nazi, white sheet wearing MFer. I just knew it.

67NOV, are you really serious on your last statement? I mean. Really? Flounder. (hehe, I couldn't help it)

quote:

Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:
My perspective..., the IAF was on a "killing frenzy" (if it moves, it dies...) without any regard to nationality.

My perspective, we should've launched missiles at Tel Aviv to help them learn the difference between an American flag and an arab flag.
Until they publicly apologize for the incident and publicly offer reparations they will never have any forgiveness from me, not will I shed a single tear no matter how much Israeli blood gets spilled by arab terrorists. If France had strafed an American ship and killed dozens of American sailors on purpose some of you would be howling for blood. But when Israel does it, we should just suck it up or better yet, forget about it, since Israel is such a great ally. Right.

Suuuuuurpriiiiize:

We have offered and paid reparations long time ago, and we have publicly apologized.

This Lebanon thing is way wrong too.Palestinians should have a home no doubt.So, no, rants are NOT strictly anti-semitic.Start a thread and we'll be there.

quote:

I knew all along that PD was an anti-semite, skinhead, Nazi, white sheet wearing MFer. I just knew it.

Don't know PD personally and what he stands for, but isn't it ashame to attack someone when he or she is critical of Israeli policies, and then making the claim that they are somehow anti-semitic? Is this an attempt to put critics of Israel on the defensive in order to stifle debate?

I do not have problem with proper anti Israel critic.
Nor i label people Anti Semites freely. Even when PD called me SS trooper to my face, and called Israeli Gov a Nazi Gov, i did not call him Anti Semite.

However, PD shows clear lack of basic history of ME, each time he makes a statement. He claimed that Jews left out of their own free will Judea and Samaria during crusades, and he also claims that Syria does not harbor Hamas members inside its borders.

He does not know what he talks about, and his posts are best described as rant. He does not even answers my posts, where i counter his "arguments". If he thinks that i am wrong-he can try to prove his opinions. However, he does not do it.

Proper Israeli critic when backed up by facts, and not by Al-Manar propaganda, receive respectful attention from me, and sometimes even agreement.
For example-Liberty.
Until 00Q pointed out some facts to me, i have considered the issue closed, and Israel entirely blameless.
However in the light of the facts presented to me by 00Q, I agree that there is a place and a necessity for a new independent investigation, that will put everything to its proper place.
In other words i agree that there is a high probability of a covered -up crime committed by IDF, a fact that is very hard for me to accept being IDF soldier too.

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:
I do not have problem with proper anti Israel critic.
Nor i label people Anti Semites freely. Even when PD called me SS trooper to my face, and called Israeli Gov a Nazi Gov, i did not call him Anti Semite.

However, PD shows clear lack of basic history of ME, each time he makes a statement. He claimed that Jews left out of their own free will Judea and Samaria during crusades, and he also claims that Syria does not harbor Hamas members inside its borders.

He does not know what he talks about, and his posts are best described as rant. He does not even answers my posts, where i counter his "arguments". If he thinks that i am wrong-he can try to prove his opinions. However, he does not do it.

Proper Israeli critic when backed up by facts, and not by Al-Manar propaganda, receive respectful attention from me, and sometimes even agreement.
For example-Liberty.
Until 00Q pointed out some facts to me, i have considered the issue closed, and Israel entirely blameless.
However in the light of the facts presented to me by 00Q, I agree that there is a place and a necessity for a new independent investigation, that will put everything to its proper place.
In other words i agree that there is a high probability of a covered -up crime committed by IDF, a fact that is very hard for me to accept being IDF soldier too.

One of the facts that 00Q left out was that practically all the casualties on the Liberty were not a direct result of the air attacks by the two or three Mirages (not Phantoms ... you didn't have any in '67) and the one Mystère ... they were from the detonation of the torpedo launched from the torpedo boats trailing it. They approached at high speed ... but we shot at them first.

quote:

[CAPT. McGonagle:] It appeared that they were approaching the ship in a torpedo launch attitude, and since I did not have direct communication with gun control or the gun mounts, I told a man from the bridge, whose identity I do not recall, to proceed to mount 51 and take the boats under fire.

http://www.ussliberty.org/torpedo.htm
At that point it really didn't matter diddly squat to the PT boats what flag was flying from a boat that had taken them under fire with .50 caliber machine guns.

I beg all the outraged among you to remember that this incident took place on June 8th, 1967 ... day four of the Six-Day war ... and everyone in the IDF had been working around the clock since day one. Fatigue was a significant factor, for the IAF in particular. The "Liberty" lived up to its name in more ways than one ... it was a converted "Liberty ship" and there were hundreds of such surplus hulls in the Med at the time, flags and paint are cheap, and false flag operations have a long history in naval warfare. As far as the IDF knew, there were no US vessels within a hundred miles of the Israeli coast, since General Yitzhak Rabin (then IDF Chief of Staff) informed Commander Ernest Carl Castle, the American Naval Attache in Tel Aviv, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal, including sinking unidentified ships. Liberty had been sent orders to that effect on the early morning of the attack, but was not monitoring the correct frequency.

I don't think you have to be a Likudnik to avoid accusations of anti-semitism ... but the Liberty zealots ought to give it a rest.

As always....another angle to consider.Thanks Mr.Mole

Addressing the original message, "Israel violates Syrian air space". No one can disclaim or deny the power and influence of the Israeli lobby and the charge they make of "anti-semitism" that can be used as a tool to stifle debate. Israel violated Syrian air space and soil that evoked a response from the Syrian military. To criticize Israel for provoking the incident is not "anti-semitic". Neither is the criticism of Israel for attacking the "USS LIBERTY". To give any country uncritical, unquestioning, and blind support is ludicrous. Paul Findley a former Republican Rep. from Illinois describes the power of the pro-Israel lobby, AIPAC, in his book, "THEY DARE TO SPEAK OUT". It also addresses the charge of "anti-semitism, and the book, "Assault of the USS LIBERTY" by James M. Ennes Jr.

Mole-i have read it in the book of M.Oren.

What i did not know that pilots were supposedly over heard saying-"let's sink that American ship".

I can allow for a crime, despite that i am almost 100% certain that it was a tragic mistake.

That is precisely why i want a new investigation.

Time to put it to rest one way, or another, and be over with it.
Btw, does not your post contradict your statement on another thread about "irresponsible Israeli act?"

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:
Mole-i have read it in the book of M.Oren.

What i did not know that pilots were supposedly over heard saying-"let's sink that American ship".

I can allow for a crime, despite that i am almost 100% certain that it was a tragic mistake.

That is precisely why i want a new investigation.

Time to put it to rest one way, or another, and be over with it.
Btw, does not your post contradict your statement on another thread about "irresponsible Israeli act?"

I can't recall ever saying anything of the sort about the Liberty ... and I consider individual cases separately on their merits. For that matter, I don't recall ever saying that the Israelis ever acted "irresponsibly" at least by their own lights ... only that their actions in every case I can see have been in their own interest. The famous "restraint" shown in not taking independent action against Saddam in 1991 while under Scud attack was just as much it your self-interest as any other ... since doing so would have fractured the coalition and wrecked its legitimacy.

....being a pup compared to some in here I will just add this to my list of festering sores that need their dressings changed...a chesty nurse would be nice.

1. Korea
2. Vietnam
3. Palestine
4. .............and Israel

I have to agree with you once again, oldmole.

Yeah, he is a pretty logical and well thought out dude. I wish that I had his tact. But, I don't.

All The Mole has is cold hard facts.....we have CHARISMA

quote:

Originally posted by oldmole:

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:
Mole-i have read it in the book of M.Oren.

What i did not know that pilots were supposedly over heard saying-"let's sink that American ship".

I can allow for a crime, despite that i am almost 100% certain that it was a tragic mistake.

That is precisely why i want a new investigation.

Time to put it to rest one way, or another, and be over with it.
Btw, does not your post contradict your statement on another thread about "irresponsible Israeli act?"

I can't recall ever saying anything of the sort about the Liberty ... and I consider individual cases separately on their merits. For that matter, I don't recall ever saying that the Israelis ever acted "irresponsibly" at least by their own lights ... only that their actions in every case I can see have been in their own interest. The famous "restraint" shown in not taking independent action against Saddam in 1991 while under Scud attack was just as much it your self-interest as any other ... since doing so would have fractured the coalition and wrecked its legitimacy.

The famous "restraint" shown by the Israelis was motivated MORE SO by the good ole USA forgiving debt @ "$1B per Scud Missile." Correct me if I'm wrong..., the count (I believe) was nine (9) Scuds that landed in Israel costing us $9B (as in Billions) of trade (Foreign Military Sales) debt forgiveness...

For those that "think not," check the 1991 figures...

Can you prove it?

Looks interesting though.
1bln for scud??

Our country was attacked without provocation.

What would have USA done in that situation???

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:
Can you prove it?

Looks interesting though.
1bln for scud??

Our country was attacked without provocation.

What would have USA done in that situation???

PanzerMeister, first off..., MEA CULPA.
My over-50 brain housing group is in need of a "functions check..." I fired off my previous statement before checking the facts...

Correction. There were 39 (instead of 9) SCUD missiles fired into Israel during Gulf War 1991, according to <http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/special.html>.

My online research, thus far, has not provided me any proof (actual article) of USA's compensation (trade debt forgiveness) for Israel's "restraint."

No excuse, in the future the "headspace and timing" of this operator will be gauged to conduct himself more professionally. Respectfully

quote:

Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:
Can you prove it?

Looks interesting though.
1bln for scud??

Our country was attacked without provocation.

What would have USA done in that situation???

PanzerMeister, first off..., MEA CULPA.
My over-50 brain housing group is in need of a "functions check..." I fired off my previous statement before checking the facts...

Correction. There were 39 (instead of 9) SCUD missiles fired into Israel during Gulf War 1991, according to <http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/special.html>.

My online research, thus far, has not provided me any proof (actual article) of USA's compensation (trade debt forgiveness) for Israel's "restraint."

No excuse, in the future the "headspace and timing" of this operator will be gauged to conduct himself more professionally. Respectfully

Elliot, don't be too hard on yourself. Everyone involved in the Gulf War got some form of economic aid or debt forgiveness. Don't kid yourself...we made it worth their while for Israel to stay out of it no matter what Saddam did. Second, an "actual article" doesn't constitute "proof". Using sources like jewishvirtuallibrary.org as an unbiased source on Israel is like using moveon.org as an unbiased source of information on the democratic party. Third, it's the internet. As long as you're not namecalling, relax. It's debate on a hot-button issue. I don't think Israel needs to be nuked off the face of the planet like an Iranian wet dream, but I don't think we need to be sucking their d**k, either. Israel likes to act like they can take care of themselves, so let them, on their own dime, with their own weapons that they produced themselves. The impression I've gotten is that we're the crutch that keeps Israel standing, and the Israel apologists act like we should be honored, instead of acknowledging that Israel needs us a LOT more than we need Israel. I'm not biased, I don't feel that way just about Israel...I feel that way about every country that gleefully takes our dollars and than acts like we owe it to them. Yes, I'm still sore about the USS Liberty, just like I'm still sore about the USS Cole, the USMC barracks in Beirut, and a dozen other incidents involving a dozen other countries.

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:
Our country was attacked without provocation.

Like the Liberty was attacked without provocation?

quote:

What would have USA done in that situation???

Apparently nothing, just like Israel did.


I just happened to use the Liberty as a quip. The US has been attacked in what I would consider an act of war by another country on other occasions, and we didn't respond publicly and violently, becasue it wasn't in our best interest to do so. Israel didn't respond to Iraqi rockets, becasue it wasn't in their best interest to do so. Sometimes we do respond, just like sometimes Israel responds when they receive a rocket attack from Lebanon or Gaza.

More info available today on this incident...

A US Military Official said Israel incurrsion was an air strike deep in Syria that hit a target... Spoke from anonymity due to it being an intelligence issue... Also:

CNN reported the incident was against Hezbollah transferring weapons thru Syria...

Interesting as it develops...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070911/ap_on_re_mi_ea/syria_israel