quote:

Originally posted by Joel97:

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:
Yeah, just like they spanked Lebanon? The IAF could've saved money on bombs and probably been more effective if they just dropped porno mags on the Hezbollah troops to distract them.

Apples and oranges, dude.

Israel lost on the ground. The IAF did not have an opponent in Lebanon, as Hezbollah does not have an Air Force.

The IAF is FAR from over-rated. Just ask Jordanian, Egyptian, and Syrian fighter pilots who've flown against them. I'll have to look this one up, but I'd be willing to bet that the IAF have NEVER lost a combat aircraft in aerial combat. To SAM's and AAA, yes. To an Arab fighter, no.

Pointing out the obvious to you... the Syrian Air Force stayed on the GROUND during this "incident". Had they come up for a fight, they would have lost.

Guaranteed.

100% correct.
Besides, IAF had destroyed all its prime targets (Stored long ranges missiles), and failed only to flush Hizballah out of their hiding places.
IAF merely used wrong ammunition-bombs instead of napalm/fuel air. Otherwise it would have been a crushing success too.

quote:

Originally posted by 03Mach1:
The IAF is "overated"? You don't know much about their history, do you?

You're right. I just made up how Israel counted on the IAF to make certain gains possible for the IDF. You can't win a war with air power alone, but part of your plan counts on air power acheiving certain results, it can sure lose one. And if you don't call Israel's performance v/s Hezbollah in 2006 a loss, how would you describe it?

quote:

"If Israel is our ally, they sure have a funny way of showing it." How so? By not walking lockstep with everything Washington tells them, the way all the arab countries fall in line behind the "Death to Israel" mantra?

I stopped being a fan of Israel about the time they attacked the USS Liberty. There is no doubt in my mind that they wouldn't hesitate to kill any other US servicemembers who are between them and their target of the day. The Liberty wasn't a friendly fire incident, it wasn't an accident, it was an intentional act of war against the United States.

quote:

Do you suppose we'd have a different attitude towards illegal immigrants if Mexico had a similar hatred towards the U.S.?

Don't think for one second that Mexico doesn't know exactly what it is doing by encouraging millions of it's citizens to come to the US.

quote:

The Israelis thrive in the midst of a region overwhelmingly bent on their destruction. Why? Because they know their enemy and keep an eye on him!

They are bent on Israel's destruction because the UN came in, kicked a bunch of people off their land, and settled a bunch of Jews there. They are pissed off becuase with us propping them up, Israel would've long since become a historical footnote.

I'm pissed off because Israel owes their very existence to us and they repay us by doing **** like attacking our warships and spying on us. They're worse than the French. At least the french don't pretend to be our friends.

quote:

We could learn from them!

Sure. How to Smile While You Stab Your Friends in the Back, written by Israel. Or maybe How to Get Your *** Handed to You By Hezbollah.

quote:

Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:

quote:

Originally posted by SSG_Coder:
Reagan didn't bring down the wall. It fail because we out spent them for 30 plus years. When they tried to keep up with us the gutted their economy. And I never saw Reagan running a boarder trace or going eye to eye with the Russians. That was alot of Cold War warriors doing that and alot of Administrations, both Republican and Democrat, who stood firm. Reagen just ahppened to be in office when it came down. If the Russians had held out a little longer it would have been Bush I or Clinton.

SSG CODER, you should have been around during Carter's Administration... Our military as a whole were down on both knees, WE were at our worst "Readiness for War" since 1930's!!!

Does anyone that served 1977-1981 timeframe remember: The post-Vietnam drawdown ("Peace Dividend"), Hostage Crisis in Iran, "Honest" Operational Readiness Reports of Equipment at less than 50% capability, Ammunition Contracts Expired - thus Arms Rooms rarely issued weapons for livefires...

I'd have made a career out of the Navy instead of doing only 20 years, if it hadn't been for James Earl Carter and his traveling side show.

He appeared to be a real nice guy, but sure wasn't cut out to lead the free world...

Training and Underway time were at an all time ebb.. In fact looking back I don't think I can recall even hearing of a 5"54 being fired, much less fire our own...

The only training I recall was teaching Saudi's how Minesweep with their brand new Mine Sweepers

We couldn't afford our own. (New Sweeps)

I'll shut up before I get to overly carried away about what I think of as the worst POTUS of alllll time.

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:

quote:

Originally posted by Joel97:

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:
Yeah, just like they spanked Lebanon? The IAF could've saved money on bombs and probably been more effective if they just dropped porno mags on the Hezbollah troops to distract them.

Apples and oranges, dude.

Israel lost on the ground. The IAF did not have an opponent in Lebanon, as Hezbollah does not have an Air Force.

The IAF is FAR from over-rated. Just ask Jordanian, Egyptian, and Syrian fighter pilots who've flown against them. I'll have to look this one up, but I'd be willing to bet that the IAF have NEVER lost a combat aircraft in aerial combat. To SAM's and AAA, yes. To an Arab fighter, no.

Pointing out the obvious to you... the Syrian Air Force stayed on the GROUND during this "incident". Had they come up for a fight, they would have lost.

Guaranteed.

100% correct.
Besides, IAF had destroyed all its prime targets (Stored long ranges missiles), and failed only to flush Hizballah out of their hiding places.
IAF merely used wrong ammunition-bombs instead of napalm/fuel air. Otherwise it would have been a crushing success too.

Sure. Use FAE or napalm in high population areas full of noncombatants. That's the way to win the rest of the world (including the American populace) over. Keep in mind that Israel, for the most part, has one friend in the entire world...us. And doing crap like napalming women and children is a surefire way to get Representatives elected who don't think it's really in our best interest to support a country like Israel anymore.

quote:

I stopped being a fan of Israel about the time they attacked the USS Liberty.

Since June of '67? 40 years? Wow, you hold a grudge!

How many times since then have they stood by us? And you DO know that a lot of "Israelis" are Americans who immigrated, too.

Anti-semitism is an ugly thing that some wear like a crown. But I believe your ire is directed at the GOVERNMENT and not the people, isn't it? Otherwise you'd sound rather islamic.

From Wikipedia:

"Israel's official position is that the attack was not the result of an intentional targeting of an American ship. Israeli officials say they were assured by the United States that no U.S. ships were in the area, [1] and that its air and naval forces mistakenly identified Liberty as the Egyptian vessel El Quseir. Supporters of this position say Israel had no motive for a surprise attack on an important ally. They also note that the tense atmosphere of the Six-Day War created the possibility of such mistakes, and point out that the U.S. government, concerned about such dangers, ordered the Liberty further away from shore the night before the attack (bureaucratic and communications problems kept the order from arriving in time).[2] Finally, they note that the United States has several times mistakenly attacked its own and allied forces in so-called friendly fire incidents."

Please take note of that last sentence. The "Fog of War" maybe?

Also:

"According to the Jewish Virtual Library, on December 17, 1987, the issue was officially closed by the two governments through an exchange of diplomatic notes. Israel also eventually paid nearly $13 million in humanitarian reparations to the United States and in compensation to the families of the victims."

Can you say "forgiveness"?

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:

quote:

Originally posted by Bad_Moon_Rising:

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:

quote:

Originally posted by Bad_Moon_Rising:

quote:

Originally posted by oldmole:
More interesting that the story isn't "Israelis violate Syrian airspace", though.

damn the Isrealis for invading the "peaceful people of Syria's" airspace

Well, if Syria shoots one or more of them down next time, the Israelis have no room to whine about the loss of the aircraft and/or aircrew in the process.

PD I think they are missing you on 'World of Warcraft' you better get back to it

WTF is World of Warcraft?

World of Warcraft is a feeling...who needs a social life? thats part of a song making fun of the game...people that play it, usually have little or no social life

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:

quote:

Originally posted by PanzerMeister:

quote:

Originally posted by Joel97:

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:
Yeah, just like they spanked Lebanon? The IAF could've saved money on bombs and probably been more effective if they just dropped porno mags on the Hezbollah troops to distract them.

Apples and oranges, dude.

Israel lost on the ground. The IAF did not have an opponent in Lebanon, as Hezbollah does not have an Air Force.

The IAF is FAR from over-rated. Just ask Jordanian, Egyptian, and Syrian fighter pilots who've flown against them. I'll have to look this one up, but I'd be willing to bet that the IAF have NEVER lost a combat aircraft in aerial combat. To SAM's and AAA, yes. To an Arab fighter, no.

Pointing out the obvious to you... the Syrian Air Force stayed on the GROUND during this "incident". Had they come up for a fight, they would have lost.

Guaranteed.

100% correct.
Besides, IAF had destroyed all its prime targets (Stored long ranges missiles), and failed only to flush Hizballah out of their hiding places.
IAF merely used wrong ammunition-bombs instead of napalm/fuel air. Otherwise it would have been a crushing success too.

Sure. Use FAE or napalm in high population areas full of noncombatants. That's the way to win the rest of the world (including the American populace) over. Keep in mind that Israel, for the most part, has one friend in the entire world...us. And doing crap like napalming women and children is a surefire way to get Representatives elected who don't think it's really in our best interest to support a country like Israel anymore.

One of the reasons why we did not do it.

I may not be Jewish but i believe in Israel and would have no problem if they destroyed Syria and Iran. They are capable of doing it and they would not fool around like Dumbsfeld and Bush did they would just do it and be done with it. I think they should make Syria pay for firing at them and pay dearly.

How exactly is it "anti-semitic" to point out that Israel invaded Syria's air space - which was mentioned in the first paragraph of the linked article?

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:

quote:

Originally posted by 03Mach1:
The IAF is "overated"? You don't know much about their history, do you?

You're right. I just made up how Israel counted on the IAF to make certain gains possible for the IDF. You can't win a war with air power alone, but part of your plan counts on air power acheiving certain results, it can sure lose one. And if you don't call Israel's performance v/s Hezbollah in 2006 a loss, how would you describe it?

quote:

"If Israel is our ally, they sure have a funny way of showing it." How so? By not walking lockstep with everything Washington tells them, the way all the arab countries fall in line behind the "Death to Israel" mantra?

I stopped being a fan of Israel about the time they attacked the USS Liberty. There is no doubt in my mind that they wouldn't hesitate to kill any other US servicemembers who are between them and their target of the day. The Liberty wasn't a friendly fire incident, it wasn't an accident, it was an intentional act of war against the United States.

quote:

Do you suppose we'd have a different attitude towards illegal immigrants if Mexico had a similar hatred towards the U.S.?

Don't think for one second that Mexico doesn't know exactly what it is doing by encouraging millions of it's citizens to come to the US.

quote:

The Israelis thrive in the midst of a region overwhelmingly bent on their destruction. Why? Because they know their enemy and keep an eye on him!

They are bent on Israel's destruction because the UN came in, kicked a bunch of people off their land, and settled a bunch of Jews there. They are pissed off becuase with us propping them up, Israel would've long since become a historical footnote.

I'm pissed off because Israel owes their very existence to us and they repay us by doing **** like attacking our warships and spying on us. They're worse than the French. At least the french don't pretend to be our friends.

quote:

We could learn from them!

Sure. How to Smile While You Stab Your Friends in the Back, written by Israel. Or maybe How to Get Your *** Handed to You By Hezbollah.

Now, how did i miss that post??

1)Guerrilla war is not a regular war. Therefore the results are completely another for an unprepared army (IDF). If it was a war against regular army it would have been over in 3 days, maybe less. Did not take us too long to kick Syria's @ss in six day war, 2 days only.
Besides as i have already said, if we used Napalm and FAE, we would have crushed them too.
IDF commander (Halutz) was an idiot so he did not use them. We lost.
AF performance vs given targets was 100%. After that "bank of targets" emptied AF was used to bomb Beirut, to no avail.
2)"They are bent on Israel's destruction because the UN came in, kicked a bunch of people off their land, and settled a bunch of Jews there."

Say, do you know history at all?
Some facts for you:
1)Jews bought land from Arabs before 1948 and even before 1920. No one lived on this land, because it was either swamp, or it was land that Arabs did not use for their agriculture, because they did not know how. Jews caused it to flourish.
2)Jews were here before Mohamed.
3)Arabs killed Jews before 1948. Read about 1929 massacres.
4)They hate us because we represent the "Western occupation", that the Arabs gone through in the beginning of the 20 century. Just read their imams and historians from 1948-1967.
5)Read about grand mufti Hadj-Amin-Al-Huseini and his cooperation with Hitler. You will see that he did not hate merely the Jews in mandatory Palestine.

This is for Mr. Mole: Research the strafing of a USN elint vessel in the med in the 60s by IAF F4 Phantoms which left 200+ KIA on the boat.They flew THEIR PARADE FLAG and the F'n planes STILL rolled in.Couldnt sink it....Pilots refused further sortie.

quote:

in the 60s by IAF F4 Phantoms which left 200+ KIA on the boat.They flew THEIR PARADE FLAG and the F'n planes

Until there will be a full investigation, which i by the way support, there is no point of discussing it further.

here
I discuss it with 00Q. More detailed answer to liberty tragedy is there.

MTCRetired

Saw it right away Chief.

Guess old Chiefs are a bit sharper!

quote:

Originally posted by rm444:
This is for Mr. Mole: Research the strafing of a USN elint vessel in the med in the 60s by IAF F4 Phantoms which left 200+ KIA on the boat. They flew THEIR PARADE FLAG and the F'n planes STILL rolled in. Couldnt sink it... Pilots refused further sortie.

The USS LIBERTY is the ship you are referring to that was strafed (at least twice) by IAF during the 1967 War. Yes, in broad daylight, no overcast (visibility 10+ nautical miles), with their largest Old Glory unfurled (for easy recognition). I believe 27 U.S. Sailors were KIA.

The USS LIBERTY radioed to the MED FLEET for air cover, it was refused.

My perspective..., the IAF was on a "killing frenzy" (if it moves, it dies...) without any regard to nationality.

quote:

Originally posted by YeomanFirstRetired:
I may not be Jewish but i believe in Israel and would have no problem if they destroyed Syria and Iran. They are capable of doing it and they would not fool around like Dumbsfeld and Bush did they would just do it and be done with it. I think they should make Syria pay for firing at them and pay dearly.

I may not be Arab but I would have no problem if the Arab league got together and settled Israel's hash permanently. Of courses, that would probably result in a permanent end to the Arab League, but that's okay with me, too. If the last Israeli and the last Arab killed each other with bayonets, I would go to sleep a happy man. **** 'em both.

quote:

Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:
My perspective..., the IAF was on a "killing frenzy" (if it moves, it dies...) without any regard to nationality.

My perspective, we should've launched missiles at Tel Aviv to help them learn the difference between an American flag and an arab flag.

Until they publicly apologize for the incident and publicly offer reparations they will never have any forgiveness from me, not will I shed a single tear no matter how much Israeli blood gets spilled by arab terrorists. If France had strafed an American ship and killed dozens of American sailors on purpose some of you would be howling for blood. But when Israel does it, we should just suck it up or better yet, forget about it, since Israel is such a great ally. Right.

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:

quote:

Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:
My perspective..., the IAF was on a "killing frenzy" (if it moves, it dies...) without any regard to nationality.

My perspective, we should've launched missiles at Tel Aviv to help them learn the difference between an American flag and an arab flag.
Until they publicly apologize for the incident and publicly offer reparations they will never have any forgiveness from me, not will I shed a single tear no matter how much Israeli blood gets spilled by arab terrorists. If France had strafed an American ship and killed dozens of American sailors on purpose some of you would be howling for blood. But when Israel does it, we should just suck it up or better yet, forget about it, since Israel is such a great ally. Right.

Awright, LISTEN UP. I do not, say again, do not condone what IAF did to our USS LIBERTY during the '67 War. By "lighting up" Tel Aviv, would not have been the logical response.
I too, do not blindly follow along with the "Israel is our Friend" BS... Israel needs us for their survival, they (my opinion) do not like us (gentiles), only tolerate us...
This is based on my past interaction with Israeli Army Officers.

quote:

How exactly is it "anti-semitic" to point out that Israel invaded Syria's air space - which was mentioned in the first paragraph of the linked article?

------------------------------------------------ R C Jarrell, Many of us don't understand the remark either! Also, it would be foolish for our country to blindly give unquestioning support to any country including Israel.

quote:

Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:

quote:

Originally posted by jwr6:

quote:

Originally posted by ELLIOTT1980:
My perspective..., the IAF was on a "killing frenzy" (if it moves, it dies...) without any regard to nationality.

My perspective, we should've launched missiles at Tel Aviv to help them learn the difference between an American flag and an arab flag.
Until they publicly apologize for the incident and publicly offer reparations they will never have any forgiveness from me, not will I shed a single tear no matter how much Israeli blood gets spilled by arab terrorists. If France had strafed an American ship and killed dozens of American sailors on purpose some of you would be howling for blood. But when Israel does it, we should just suck it up or better yet, forget about it, since Israel is such a great ally. Right.

Awright, LISTEN UP. I do not, say again, do not condone what IAF did to our USS LIBERTY during the '67 War. By "lighting up" Tel Aviv, would not have been the logical response.
I too, do not blindly follow along with the "Israel is our Friend" BS... Israel needs us for their survival, they (my opinion) do not like us (gentiles), only tolerate us...
This is based on my past interaction with Israeli Army Officers.

Sorry, I shouldn't have looked like I was pissing on your post; I agree with you but was taking it one step further.

quote:

Originally posted by 67NOV:

quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixDark:
Well, it will teach the Israelis that there is a price to be paid for intentionally VIOLATING the airspace of another sovereign nation.

Do you feel the same way about how Syria has violated Lebanon for years & years? Or are you rants strictly anti-semetic?

Well, before you go throwing stones, remember Israel equally violated Lebanon's sovereignity during the same time period.
PS - Criticism of the state of Israel and her policies DOES NOT constitute anti-semitism, so you can shove that up your a**