Originally posted by 7707991: The AP needs to get their aircraft right. When they said a "b-52 like this one" it was a c-5 and not a b-52. This is why i never take the ap seriously.
Can't tell you don't know. If it was a C-5 it was just a simple weapons move. Nothing more. That's the way your suppose to move em. The Navy has the ability to haul them around by ship. Air ops don't.
Originally posted by Elwood1974: I spent 21 years working nuc weapons in the Navy so I know (in my mind at least) what the problem was and the solution. Nothing on a nuc weapon gets done that's not reader/worker routine. In other words every bolt turned, amphoenal hooked up, piece of loading equipment utilized; is inspected, serial number checked, weight test verified, then the step to be performed is read, the worker confirms he understands the step, and then the step is performed by one person and verified by another. So the techs simply blew off their procedures. They should be busted as well as the NCOIC and then the officer cognacent of the operation should be fired. The base CO should also be relieved, not because he knew or did not know or ever really had his hand in this, but so in the future base COs will through fear for their jobs make sure everyone under them is trained, spot checks are done often, random monitoring of these proceedures is instituted, and the fear of God is in every nuc weapons worker up and down the chain. Why? Because we (the United States)need nuc weapons in this world I'm sorry to say, and an accident that produces any yield at all(no matter how small or insignificant), or any dispersal of radiological material BY ACCIDENT (and if this plane had gone down for any reason, and planes do from time to time) would set back our nuclear program to where it would be impossible to maintain them. There are so many proceedures now that it's a major evolution just to hook up a crain to a weapon to move it. We screw up in a big way and those proceedures will go from the current redicules to the absurd. Of course if you don't follow those proceedures I guess it just does not matter. My 2 cents.
You and about four others on this site clearly are the only ones who understand this. When I first heard it on the news this morning I thought "the Wing King is done as is the squadron commander and the group commander." No, they wouldn't have necessarily known about it, but when you're in charge, it's on you. I used to be in one of those jobs and I sweated out handling of weapons on a daily basis. It's impossible for me to envision a situation where you'd take one (let alone multiples) of these out of storage without knowing what you had. These suckers have to be signed off every way from Sunday to get them out of the bunker. This is purely on the MUNS folks. The cops only can be responsible for providing security at the site on and escort. They don't know what they've got -- that's MUNS job. The flight crew wouldn't have known what they had. When you transport a warhead, the pilot has to sign for it. The pilot thought he'd been given missiles without warheads, so he's not at fault. The entire wing will have to be decertified after this fiasco! They should can the squadron superintendent and the flight chief while they're at it. (For those who always think officers try to stick it to the enlisted troops, I'm suggesting they fire 4 senior officers, one junior officer and one senior enlisted.) No, there was no risk of detonation here, but this is what these folks are paid to do, and they failed miserably.
The point is being missed. It's not a bad thing to fly nucs around. We have done and still do it all the time. What is bad is when you lose accountability. You should KNOW where all your nucs are all the time. Period. This was sloppy and unprofessional and if anyone disagrees with that then we will just have to disagree.
Originally posted by EyeWideOpen: I guess we found where the weapons of mass destruction are: IN AMERICA!
How could we possibly be angry with other countries developing nukes when we openly admit to having them ourselves? Isnt it sort of a DUH moment when they begin building them to match us?
Excuse me ol smart one, but when have we ever denied that we have them? Just who do you think are the ones guilty of dropping the only two ever dropped in an act of aggression?
I don't know if this has been posted yet, as I don't feel like reading through 8 pages of the thread, but I actually could care less if they "accidentally" flew the nukes around. I was surprised to know we still had nukes that could be dropped by the B-52, then I learned they were Cruise Missles. So, oh well.
Not to sound like a nut, but has anyone thought of, Hey, what if this is a newsy publicity stunt. As the word makes its way around the world, other nation hears that our B-52s still have the capability to deliver plane droppable cruise missles. Particularily Russia, the country that keeps flying their "Bear" bombers into NATO airspace and our (U.S.) own.
I know, I know, people were releived of duty, and others are in trouble, and there will be an investigation, so they say, but really who cares? I know I don't.
Originally posted by TheGoodOne: So what! I thought thats what the B-52's were for in the first place. I agree with a previous comment, too bad they didnt continue to Iran and accidently drop them there. Then we could say OOPS!
Wake up sleepy.
The point is they WERE over the United States and 'drop' would have been more than an "OOPS!" would have covered.
popsiq - what do you think would have happened if one of the ACMs had departed the acft?
Answer - certainly not detonation (as the weapons were not armed) and probably nothing at all. Warheads are designed to take shock without spilling their radioactive components.
Originally posted by maplestreet208: You folks would have had a stroke back in the 60's. 52s with nukes were flown all over the US everyday. Every SAC base had alerts that put their 52s in the air. The crews of these 52s didn't know whether it was the real thing or a practice run. Only after they were airborne would they open the safe aboard and see what the mission was. I worked a alert flight line that had 52s that contained a total of 15 nuke bombs that would have wiped out the south eastern half of the US if the were to have gone off. This is just another anon. person opening the yap when they should keep it closed. Stealth and secrecy is the first prioty and that is why we are in the shape we are in now. The news channels putting out THEIR stories is alerting the enemy to what we are doing. Get the press out of the military's business and we will have less dead.
>>> You are right about that. As much of a critic I am of this administration, nuclear information is off limits to the press or it sure as hell should be. There are too many freaks out there that spend a lot of time trying to find ways to get one of our own weapons and use it on us. Keeping us informed is keeping them informed. If protocols were broken, let the Air Force deal with it in secret. I lived on or near an Air Force base most of my life, and when we were kids, we would cheer when the B47s, then the B52s would fly over just about every day. We would point out to each other that they were carrying ATOMIC BOMBS! Maybe they are on the way to Russia right now! Did we stop having a nuclear deterrent in the air 24/7 when the Berlin wall came down? Certainly there are correct ways to redeploy this kind of ordinance, but rail and highway are much more problematic than the tried and true method of air transport which they were designed for. The B52 can carry anything it wants anywhere in the world, refuel, stay airborne while pilots take turns sleeping, has everything changed? Remember those ground crews on Tinian that handled these weapons for the very first time? This sequence was recorded for history and it is always worth watching, the excitement of knowing this weapon would end the war, and the honour felt that they were the crew that was entrusted with this vital duty, using unconventional equipment, forklifts and muscle to the pit and then moving the B29 over the pit with bomb bay doors open to place this machine on The Enola Gay for that mission. We hoped to never to use them again, but they were in the air for at least 50 years on both sides just in case something stupid happened, fortunately, no one tried anything and we are still here, though there were some close calls. If there is a crash, there are radiation leaks but no exposion, it has happened before. Someone took a shortcut and their career will be affected, but we have nothing to panic over, and the media should never have made this public. Do we still have security classifications, like TOP SECRET?
This whole thing doesn't pass the smell test. I have spent my time around nukes..
Nukes are stored in a highly secured area for starters. A ton of paperwork from on high is required to even see one. If the munitions troops did get the order their convoy would have had a well armed escort and everyone involved would know what was under the tarps.
Another thing. Munitions troops know every detail of every weapon they handle. They know a nuke when they see one. A nuke weapons load is a total cluster f---. Brings everyone out of the wood work..
Unless AF good order , discipline and traing are gone, thgose nukes were loaded with full knowledge by all involved.
Lets wait for Paul Harvey to give us the reast of the story..also whoever leaked this to the media knew the nukes went bye bye..
Originally posted by Grimmity: OK, first of all firing the Munitions Squadron Commander is a cop out. While he is the owner of the account on paper, the SINGLE FOCAL POINT for the asset is the BASE COMMANDER. He is the only person that has the authority to release nukes for any reason. If they are being moved for maintenance or any other reason HE knows about it. Hell, there are quite a few organizations on the bae that would have known about this movement. Just getting them to the jet in the first place is one HUGE headache. As far as decerting the crews.... COME ON! Your telling me they didnt know what they were handling? BULLS***!! IT IS PRETTY FREAKING OBVIOUS when you are working with the real deal. There needs to be some serious investigation into this one. Sounds like we only got one little piece of the puzzle.
I.Y.A.A.Y.A.S.!!!!
100% correct!!! I am a former C-3 Nuclear weapons tech (US Navy)and with so many protocols involved in just ACCESSING a nuke much less transporting one (or more) accidentally is a load of s***. Not only is there an exclusion area with armed personnel present you have to have clearance just to get through the buffer zone which completely surrounds the exclusion area. At least that is the take on Navy protocol. In other words it is a physical impossibility to "accidentally" transport nuclear warheads.
Originally posted by moe1942: This whole thing doesn't pass the smell test. I have spent my time around nukes..
Nukes are stored in a highly secured area for starters. A ton of paperwork from on high is required to even see one. If the munitions troops did get the order their convoy would have had a well armed escort and everyone involved would know what was under the tarps.
Another thing. Munitions troops know every detail of every weapon they handle. They know a nuke when they see one. A nuke weapons load is a total cluster f---. Brings everyone out of the wood work..
Unless AF good order , discipline and traing are gone, thgose nukes were loaded with full knowledge by all involved.
Lets wait for Paul Harvey to give us the reast of the story..also whoever leaked this to the media knew the nukes went bye bye..
Yeah, Moe - I'm with you on that. If this was someone's way of transporting weapons in a non-standard fashion, it was a very bad idea.
a. This also speaks to a systemic problem. Was this a one-off? Maybe not.
b. Pilots don't launch without knowing what's on their aircraft, so
c. Was there collusion between the munitions squadron and the flying squadron?
d. If it was, how did they manage to keep the Ops Group, Log Group and wing commanders in the dark?
How did this get to the press?
a. A tailspotter who got an interesting photo of a loaded Buff launching from Barksdale (or landing at Minot)? CNN has a real nice "send us your photo" program.
b. An Airman with a conscience - or an axe to grind?
The final report will likely not be released to the public.
Greer We probably will never know what really happened but I don't believe nuke accountability and control was the cause. Like I said everyone knew full well what was loaded on that BUF including the aircrew. Wish I was still in the loop. The story of "why" would be far more interesting for a thread..
Hayes, doesn't make any difference how they were moved the protocol remains the same. Someones *** is grass I'm just not sure why...
Because Bush violated International Laws that we agreed to by treaty, then he is also violating the supreme Law of the Land which is an impeachable offense. Note that it says "or which shall be made" so treaties signed after the Constitution was adopted are still covered. Violation of The United Nations Charter Chapter 1, Article 2 of the UN Charter states:
O-Kay..... let's impeach him, just like we did Clinton, then leave him in office, JUST LIKE CLINTON (what the offense IS, doesn't matter).
At least Richard Nixon had the honor and fortitude to resign, once that action was taken against him!
Trust me on this. Those nukes went bye bye with full knowledge and authority. If you really want something to chew on try this. My money says they are addressed to Iran...COD or is that DOA....
The B2 doesn't launch cruise missiles. Never has, never even intended to do so.
Any nuke made anywhere in the history of nuclear weaponry has a very specific chemical/radionuclear signature. Bomb goes off, samples of the components of the bomb are dispersed into the atmosphere. Collect the samples and you now know where the bomb came from. That's not even bothering with things like satellite coverage showing delivery vehicles and the like.
A nuke isn't like crazy uncle Earl's pipe bombs. They're incredibly complex and literally every bomb ever built has an individual signature that can't be hidden.
The war was perfectly legal. Both houses of Congress agreed it was. International law is an interesting fiction but has very little bearing on the rational operation of a modern government.
You're currently an end stage consumer of oil. Your computer has polymer products in it that started in wells most likely in the middle east.
I'm too tired to go into a long discussion of the international strategic advantage the US has by having aircraft within an unrefueled sorty range of virtually all of the significant areas of concern in the Middle East and the rest of the area. Whether you like it or not, you're using the product of your "illegal war." [/QUOTE]
Ummmm, I am not going to argue the whole "illegal war" thing with you but you are DEAD WRONG about the B-52 not launching cruise missiles. See Here Here Too One More Time
As to your comment about every weapon having a signature well, I dont know if they can tell EVERY SINGLE ONE apart but they sure can tell where it came from, how old it is, and if it was intended to be a weapon or if it was some other type of nuclear material. See HERE
Your comment sounded more like that movie with Ben Affleck in it about terrorists bombing Baltimore.
Originally posted by moe1942: Greer We probably will never know what really happened but I don't believe nuke accountability and control was the cause. Like I said everyone knew full well what was loaded on that BUF including the aircrew. Wish I was still in the loop. The story of "why" would be far more interesting for a thread..
They neither lost accountability nor control of those weapons. This wasn't an accident.
Under normal circumstances, Barksdale would be decertified - and you know about the chain of accountability as a result of such a finding.
