quote:

Originally posted by rayld2:

quote:

Originally posted by FlankerFlyer:
So Dave (and others), this was not a coup.

If it was, then what we did to Nixon in the 70s was also a coup.

The supreme court and the congress chose to oust a bad president according to their constitution.

It doesnt get any clearer than that.

There is nothing to intervene in as the government wasnt deposed, democracy is in fact functioning as required under their constitution.
There will be an interim president until the presidential elections are held, according to the constitution.

Why must some of you read more into it than what really happened.

Please someone tell me (quoting specific paragraphs in the Honduran constitution) exactly what was done illegally.

No the difference is that the opposition in Honduras did not follow the legal requirements to get rid of the president.
While Zelaya probably broke the law by pushing the referendum the opposition rather than following the rule of law decided to oust him from power and in doing so violated their country's constitution themselves. What Honduras needs to do is follow their own law and impeach Zelaya not have the oligarchs use their control of the military to kick him out of the country.
Nations should be run by laws and not human whim so IMO Zelaya should be returned to the presidency in Honduras and then face impeachment for any constitutional violations he's committed.

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
PECULIAR response, Dave. Got anything better?

Got a link to the 1982 Honduran Constituion in ENGLISH?

Mr. Obama won't "meddle" in Iran, Syria, Cuba, etc. politics, but seems gleeful to "meddle" in Israel and Honduras' affairs. Why is that Dave, as you seem to have access to info. we don't.

quote:

Originally posted by rayld2:

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
PECULIAR response, Dave. Got anything better?

Got a link to the 1982 Honduran Constituion in ENGLISH?

Mr. Obama won't "meddle" in Iran, Syria, Cuba, etc. politics, but seems gleeful to "meddle" in Israel and Honduras' affairs. Why is that Dave, as you seem to have access to info. we don't.

peter3_1 you are ignoring, since it allows you to Attack Mr. Obama, the FACT that the OAS charter (article 9) and the Inter-American Democratic Charter (articles 20 and 21 I think) Require all OAS members to oppose any overthrow that over 2/3rds of the OAS general assembly see as illegal and the US is a member of the OAS. So YOU know there is a difference, although I don't expect you to ever drop an issue that gives you any EXCUSE to attack Mr. Obama no matter what the truth is.

quote:

Article 20



In the event of an unconstitutional alteration of the constitutional regime that seriously impairs the democratic order in a member state, any member state or the Secretary General may request the immediate convocation of the Permanent Council to undertake a collective assessment of the situation and to take such decisions as it deems appropriate.



The Permanent Council, depending on the situation, may undertake the necessary diplomatic initiatives, including good offices, to foster the restoration of democracy.



If such diplomatic initiatives prove unsuccessful, or if the urgency of the situation so warrants, the Permanent Council shall immediately convene a special session of the General Assembly. The General Assembly will adopt the decisions it deems appropriate, including the undertaking of diplomatic initiatives, in accordance with the Charter of the Organization, international law, and the provisions of this Democratic Charter.



The necessary diplomatic initiatives, including good offices, to foster the restoration of democracy, will continue during the process.



Article 21



When the special session of the General Assembly determines that there has been an unconstitutional interruption of the democratic order of a member state, and that diplomatic initiatives have failed, the special session shall take the decision to suspend said member state from the exercise of its right to participate in the OAS by an affirmative vote of two thirds of the member states in accordance with the Charter of the OAS. The suspension shall take effect immediately.



The suspended member state shall continue to fulfill its obligations to the Organization, in particular its human rights obligations.



Notwithstanding the suspension of the member state, the Organization will maintain diplomatic initiatives to restore democracy in that state.

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
Oh, now I get it. Just heard Rush this morning. He says Obama was wrong. Now it all makes sense.

quote:

Originally posted by Grachus:
Well it would seem that both you, Line doggie and LOA regard a military coup as a free and fair election...

quote:

Originally posted by LineDoggie:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
Oh, now I get it. Just heard Rush this morning. He says Obama was wrong. Now it all makes sense.

For those of us who arent listening to the Fat F@3k maybe you can fill us in since apparently you listen to every word the man says.

quote:

Originally posted by Grachus:
Well it would seem that both you, Line doggie and LOA regard a military coup as a free and fair election...

I can Live with the Honduran Supreme Court, National Congress and People deciding to rid themselves of Zelaya.

quote:

Err, leave the "people" out, they were deprived of the chance to vote.

quote:

Originally posted by rayevinsonsr:

Why then, does it take a President of the United States to voice hellfire and damnation when placating a nation that murders hundreds of their citizen.

quote:

Originally posted by rayevinsonsr:

quote:

Err, leave the "people" out, they were deprived of the chance to vote.

Err, Didn't these same people you're speaking for, vote in the legislation body that told Zeyala adios.

quote:

Originally posted by greywolfghost:

quote:

My reasoning dave was that the Honduran Supreme Court said Zelaya Goes...... There are the Highest Judicial Body in Honduras, Yes or No?

The Honduran National Congress said Zelaya Goes...... They are the Elected Representatives of all the Honduran Peoples, Yes or No?

Constitutions usually don't give those powers over the Military to either Congress of the Supreme Court. If Congress ordered a President to be run out by the Military without an Impeachment just to stop a Referendum Vote by the PEople on removing term limits, then like it or not, that is a Military Coup - -

quote:

Originally posted by Grachus:

quote:

Originally posted by rayevinsonsr:

quote:

Err, leave the "people" out, they were deprived of the chance to vote.

Err, Didn't these same people you're speaking for, vote in the legislation body that told Zeyala adios.

Their courageous stand of openly defying the elected President AFTER he was bundled off to Costa Rica is noted.

Didn't our Congress do the same thing to Nixon?

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:

quote:

Originally posted by rayld2:

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
PECULIAR response, Dave. Got anything better?

Got a link to the 1982 Honduran Constituion in ENGLISH?

Mr. Obama won't "meddle" in Iran, Syria, Cuba, etc. politics, but seems gleeful to "meddle" in Israel and Honduras' affairs. Why is that Dave, as you seem to have access to info. we don't.

peter3_1 you are ignoring, since it allows you to Attack Mr. Obama, the FACT that the OAS charter (article 9) and the Inter-American Democratic Charter (articles 20 and 21 I think) Require all OAS members to oppose any overthrow that over 2/3rds of the OAS general assembly see as illegal and the US is a member of the OAS. So YOU know there is a difference, although I don't expect you to ever drop an issue that gives you any EXCUSE to attack Mr. Obama no matter what the truth is.

Here's articles 20 and 21 ...

quote:

Article 20



In the event of an unconstitutional alteration of the constitutional regime that seriously impairs the democratic order in a member state, any member state or the Secretary General may request the immediate convocation of the Permanent Council to undertake a collective assessment of the situation and to take such decisions as it deems appropriate.



The Permanent Council, depending on the situation, may undertake the necessary diplomatic initiatives, including good offices, to foster the restoration of democracy.



If such diplomatic initiatives prove unsuccessful, or if the urgency of the situation so warrants, the Permanent Council shall immediately convene a special session of the General Assembly. The General Assembly will adopt the decisions it deems appropriate, including the undertaking of diplomatic initiatives, in accordance with the Charter of the Organization, international law, and the provisions of this Democratic Charter.



The necessary diplomatic initiatives, including good offices, to foster the restoration of democracy, will continue during the process.



Article 21



When the special session of the General Assembly determines that there has been an unconstitutional interruption of the democratic order of a member state, and that diplomatic initiatives have failed, the special session shall take the decision to suspend said member state from the exercise of its right to participate in the OAS by an affirmative vote of two thirds of the member states in accordance with the Charter of the OAS. The suspension shall take effect immediately.



The suspended member state shall continue to fulfill its obligations to the Organization, in particular its human rights obligations.



Notwithstanding the suspension of the member state, the Organization will maintain diplomatic initiatives to restore democracy in that state.

Doesn't "require" diddly ... particularly since no vote has been taken or suspension approved.

Eight pages into this thread and I'm still waiting to learn the difference between a "legal" coup ... and Obama's "not legal" coup.

quote:

Originally posted by Grachus:

quote:

Originally posted by LineDoggie:

quote:

Originally posted by Thud357L:
Oh, now I get it. Just heard Rush this morning. He says Obama was wrong. Now it all makes sense.

For those of us who arent listening to the Fat F@3k maybe you can fill us in since apparently you listen to every word the man says.

quote:

Originally posted by Grachus:
Well it would seem that both you, Line doggie and LOA regard a military coup as a free and fair election...

I can Live with the Honduran Supreme Court, National Congress and People deciding to rid themselves of Zelaya.

Err, leave the "people" out, they were deprived of the chance to vote.

But this can't possibly be a "coup." It was done in a totally legal mode. He was woken up in the middle of the night, and shipped off to Costa Rica. Some members of Congress were locked up, as well as most of his cabinet, and oddly, opposition newspapers were shut down, while the TV stations canceled programing and played soap operas and cooking shows.

Why it's almost like America! Who would dare regard these moves as a coup? It's Democracy in action...

Everyone knows that!

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by rayevinsonsr:
But, but, but, but all those foreign affairs ministers denouncing this two headed monster Honduras, they all can't be wrong.

Why then, does it take a President of the United States to voice hellfire and damnation when placating a nation that murders hundreds of their citizen. I guess to firm his commitment to his new found friends in the south, while alienating friends in all corners of the world he now showing American muscle to a country with 18,000 forces. The little country of Honduras was part of the Spanish contingency in Iraq (2003) that stood with Americans, MORE THAN WE CAN SAY FOR MANY OF THE NAYSAYERS that has jumped on the bandwagon. As President Reagan said in 1983 when being denounced by the OAS and a 11-1 vote in the United Nations Security Council, the UN has always went against American interest, it won't disturb my breakfact one bit.

quote:

Originally posted by FlankerFlyer:
Im curious about something. Lets say for the sake of argument that Honduras allows Zelaya to be president again. What happens then if he has an accident and dies? Would Obama insist that he be propped up in his chair and remain president?
At what point would Honduras then get to have its constitutional right to appoint his successor? once the corpse has rotted away?

quote:

Originally posted by rayevinsonsr:

As I get it Nixon had the balls to resign whereas some do not, they rather put the country through years/months of anguish. But the original was a Unionist under President Lincoln, Andrew Johnson, reconstruction was somewhat a heavier burden than spying on the opposition party that Nixon was accused or playing cigar swap as Clinton. Often wonder how the impeachment charges for Nixon lying would go. He was not a conspirator but rather a coverupper. The last candidate for impeachment couldn't be run off from D C with a club, ending up making millions of dollars, sending his wife to the streets to pay the bills.

IMO a lot of wasted energy and money with no results, Congress being busy covering their own backsides as usual.