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GunnyRet03
Highly Experienced Member
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quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
quote:
No, I am not "for" Zelaya, but I am not "for" the coup either. What I am for is a legal political process to play itself out. The Honduran military has no business getting involved in that process. If these countries are going to advance their democratic institutions, then they have to work these things out peacefully and the military needs to stay in their barracks.

There I have to disagree ... when there is a real threat to a country's Constitution, that is precisely when the military needs to come out of its barracks and defend it ... even here in the U.S. of A should the situation arise.


Damn, Skippy!

And if that same situation happened here, I think the Secret Service might even remove a Prez forcibly. I am sure the Joint Chiefs would be telling him to leave office also....or else.
 
Posts: 18373 | Registered: Fri 05 September 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
rayld2
Highly Experienced Member
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quote:
Originally posted by rayevinsonsr:
quote:
Originally posted by Motive25:
quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
I thought that Obama and his administration were going to put American principles over expediency ...


It IS a principled position to oppose the overthrow of an elected government by force, no matter what we may think of that government's politics. It gains us nothing in the long run to support such coups because the people in those countries will remember our position and strike back. We are still resented in Central & South America for our support of many previous coups and military juntas. The same in places like Iran, where we toppled the Mossadegh Government and brought in the Shah. We are now the "Great Satan" there.




You're wrong about Mossedeq (why bring that up?) and you're wrong about the Honduran government. The government didn't go anywhere they are the ones that shed the embarassment. Zelaya was going to change the Constitution to remain in office. In his scheme of things while the voting occurred he would stay as President until his initiatives were met. One person does not make a government. I know that's hard for some to beleive, but Kings went out of style in the 18th century. So you wesre against the Shah in Iran in 52' but for the dictator in Honduras in 09'. Great reasoning.
FALSE. The Hoduran SC STOPPED a referendum to change the constitution so Mr. Zelaya decided to hold a vote to see if the majority of the VOTERS (not the oligarths) supported LEGALLY changing the constitution. The Oligarths used the army to prevent the vote because they did not want to take a chance that a change to the Constitution supported by the majority of the people would end their control of Honduras.
 
Posts: 11193 | Registered: Wed 02 July 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
rayld2
Highly Experienced Member
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
quote:
Originally posted by Motive25:
quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
Perhaps I've missed it over the years ... but is there a regulation, guidance memo, or something that lays out what is a "legal" coup ... and what is not?



I doubt it. But a coup against and illegally installed government (call it counter-coup, revolt, revolution, etc.) that brought in a more acceptable government would probably pass muster in the court of world opinion.
I agree that it is "opinion based" ... and find it disquieting that Obama ... Chavez ... and Castro share the same view on this issue ... and that it is hardly "illegal" by any functional standard ...
The US and all the other nations in SA are bound by TREATY to oppose any coup against an elected government in SA which is one reason why the US support for the coup against that idiot Chavez ended up hurting the US and helping Chavez.
 
Posts: 11193 | Registered: Wed 02 July 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Motive25
Experienced Member
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
quote:
No, I am not "for" Zelaya, but I am not "for" the coup either. What I am for is a legal political process to play itself out. The Honduran military has no business getting involved in that process. If these countries are going to advance their democratic institutions, then they have to work these things out peacefully and the military needs to stay in their barracks.

There I have to disagree ... when there is a real threat to a country's Constitution, that is precisely when the military needs to come out of its barracks and defend it ... even here in the U.S. of A should the situation arise.


There is no way the military can "defend" the constitution by taking over the government.
 
Posts: 4025 | Registered: Wed 01 February 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
KoRnAdvocate
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Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Motive25:
quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
quote:
No, I am not "for" Zelaya, but I am not "for" the coup either. What I am for is a legal political process to play itself out. The Honduran military has no business getting involved in that process. If these countries are going to advance their democratic institutions, then they have to work these things out peacefully and the military needs to stay in their barracks.

There I have to disagree ... when there is a real threat to a country's Constitution, that is precisely when the military needs to come out of its barracks and defend it ... even here in the U.S. of A should the situation arise.


There is no way the military can "defend" the constitution by taking over the government.

The military would fail in the attempt.
 
Posts: 6083 | Registered: Wed 26 November 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
AliBubba
aka Popsiq...banned for good
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This report from Honduras has two military units 'rebelling' against the new government. Dam bloggers.

>http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/al-giordano/2009/06/reports-two-military-battalions-turn-against-honduras-coup-regime
 
Posts: 590 | Registered: Fri 16 January 2009Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
I_M_Qwerty
Previous Posts as Jade_Gate
Picture of I_M_Qwerty
Posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Motive25:
quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
quote:
No, I am not "for" Zelaya, but I am not "for" the coup either. What I am for is a legal political process to play itself out. The Honduran military has no business getting involved in that process. If these countries are going to advance their democratic institutions, then they have to work these things out peacefully and the military needs to stay in their barracks.

There I have to disagree ... when there is a real threat to a country's Constitution, that is precisely when the military needs to come out of its barracks and defend it ... even here in the U.S. of A should the situation arise.


There is no way the military can "defend" the constitution by taking over the government.
BS ... what a stupid comment. An LTC that has sworn to support and defend the constitution should know better. And ... in the Honduras ... free and open elections have been promised for this Fall ... with the military stepping aside.
 
Posts: 8129 | Registered: Sun 01 June 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
KoRnAdvocate
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We'll see if they step aside or not.
 
Posts: 6083 | Registered: Wed 26 November 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
I_M_Qwerty
Previous Posts as Jade_Gate
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quote:
Originally posted by KoRnAdvocate:
We'll see if they step aside or not.
Yep ... we will. Of the people, by the people, for the people ... and if the people are supportive as appears to be the case, who is Obama, Chavez, Castro ... and you ... to say otherwise? Their country and it seems to me that the left has been pretty vocal on their contention that we shouldn't interfere in another country's self determination. Hope Obama butts the hell out of where he doesn't belong ... particularly when he is spouting meaningless platitudes like "illegal coup".
 
Posts: 8129 | Registered: Sun 01 June 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
KoRnAdvocate
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Well all coups are illegal. Thats why they are called coups.
 
Posts: 6083 | Registered: Wed 26 November 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
I_M_Qwerty
Previous Posts as Jade_Gate
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quote:
Originally posted by KoRnAdvocate:
Well all coups are illegal. Thats why they are called coups.
I would tend to agree ... at least depending on one's perspective ... legal and illegal are opposite sides, in this case, of the same coin ... and which way the coin comes up depends on whether the coup is successful ... or unsuccessful.
 
Posts: 8129 | Registered: Sun 01 June 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
Sand_Flea
Member
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Micheletti, speaking to Colombia's Caracol Radio on Tuesday, insisted it was Zelaya who had violated the constitution and that his court-ordered removal was legal.

"We have not committed a coup d'etat, but a constitutional succession," he said.

Sounds like maybe we oughta let them sort things out. Meantime keep the commies at bay.
 
Posts: 1030 | Registered: Fri 16 February 2007Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
I_M_Qwerty
Previous Posts as Jade_Gate
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Sounds like maybe we oughta let them sort things out. Meantime keep the commies at bay.
Yepper ... but that doesn't sound like what Obama is doing.
 
Posts: 8129 | Registered: Sun 01 June 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
KoRnAdvocate
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They were going to hold a referendum on allowing this guy to serve more than one term. That's democratic, isn't it? The coup interrupted that. I'd call it illegal.
 
Posts: 6083 | Registered: Wed 26 November 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
I_M_Qwerty
Previous Posts as Jade_Gate
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quote:
Originally posted by KoRnAdvocate:
They were going to hold a referendum on allowing this guy to serve more than one term. That's democratic, isn't it? The coup interrupted that. I'd call it illegal.
It would if their constitution allowed for that ... but it precludes it. Nice try.
 
Posts: 8129 | Registered: Sun 01 June 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
KoRnAdvocate
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Thats why they were holding a referendum, to change the Constitution, or am I misinterpreting something?
 
Posts: 6083 | Registered: Wed 26 November 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
I_M_Qwerty
Previous Posts as Jade_Gate
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quote:
Originally posted by KoRnAdvocate:
Thats why they were holding a referendum, to change the Constitution, or am I misinterpreting something?
The referendum is in violation of the constitution ... one of the reasons the boy got coup'd.
 
Posts: 8129 | Registered: Sun 01 June 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
rayld2
Highly Experienced Member
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quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
quote:
Sounds like maybe we oughta let them sort things out. Meantime keep the commies at bay.
Yepper ... but that doesn't sound like what Obama is doing.
By treaty the US is REQUIRED to oppose coups against any legally elected government in SA.
 
Posts: 11193 | Registered: Wed 02 July 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
I_M_Qwerty
Previous Posts as Jade_Gate
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quote:
Originally posted by rayld2:
quote:
Originally posted by I_M_Qwerty:
quote:
Sounds like maybe we oughta let them sort things out. Meantime keep the commies at bay.
Yepper ... but that doesn't sound like what Obama is doing.
By treaty the US is REQUIRED to oppose coups against any legally elected government in SA.
LMAO
 
Posts: 8129 | Registered: Sun 01 June 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
rayld2
Highly Experienced Member
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quote:
Originally posted by KoRnAdvocate:
They were going to hold a referendum on allowing this guy to serve more than one term. That's democratic, isn't it? The coup interrupted that. I'd call it illegal.
No when the Honduran SC ruled that you could not change the constitution via a referendum it was changed to a NON-BINDING vote to change the constitution. This vote would have been used to start the process to legally change the constitution
 
Posts: 11193 | Registered: Wed 02 July 2003Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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