By COLLEEN BARRY and VICTOR L. SIMPSON, Associated Press Writer Colleen Barry And Victor L. Simpson, Associated Press Writer – 2 mins ago
MILAN – An Italian judge found 23 Americans and two Italians guilty Wednesday in the kidnapping of an Egyptian terror suspect, delivering the first legal convictions anywhere in the world against people involved in the CIA's extraordinary renditions program.

Human rights groups hailed the decision and pressed President Barack Obama to repudiate the Bush administration's practice of abducting terror suspects and transferring them to third countries where torture was permitted.

The Obama administration ended the CIA's interrogation program and shuttered its secret overseas jails in January but has opted to continue the practice of extraordinary renditions.

The Americans, who were tried in absentia, now cannot travel to Europe without risking arrest as long as the verdicts remains in place.

Despite the convictions capping the nearly three-year Italian trial, several Italian and American defendants — including the two alleged masterminds of the abduction — were acquitted due to either diplomatic immunity or because classified information was stricken by Italy's highest court.
"http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091104/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_cia_trial"

http://www.military.com/news/a...cia-kidnap-case.html

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ss_287,

And yet


Italy had no Problems paying off the Terrorists in Iraq to get Giuliana Sgrena back

or recently paying off Taliban warlords to not attack them. When the French took over the Italian TAOR, the Itlaians didnt pass that on and a platoon of Frenchmen were slaughtered in what was thought to be a safe AO

Good Job Italy, even when your on the allied side you work for the enemy

When are they going to try Usama bin Ladin, the taliban, al-Qaeda, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Iranian Government, on and on for pages and pages.....

What south ends of north bound horses.

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
When are they going to try Usama bin Ladin, the taliban, al-Qaeda, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Iranian Government, on and on for pages and pages.....

What south ends of north bound horses.

Have any of those groups actually committed a crime on Italian soil?
The whole point of this is that the CIA committed the offence of kidnapping actually in Italy. If your argument is that this shouldn't have been prosecuted because there are other crimes being committed around the world that the Italians don't prosecute then why does any country bother to prosecute anybody?

There were no Italian Citizens killed in the WTC murders on 9/11/2001, none in the Terrorist murders since 1953 in Israel, none serving in Nato in Afganistan, none in Iraq, kidnapped by islamofascists terrorists? Indeed, I seen to recall there were! Some were ALREADY mentioned in this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
There were no Italian Citizens killed in the WTC murders on 9/11/2001, none in the Terrorist murders since 1953 in Israel, none serving in Nato in Afganistan, none in Iraq, kidnapped by islamofascists terrorists? Indeed, I seen to recall there were! Some were ALREADY mentioned in this thread.

So because none of these crimes have been prosecuted the CIA operatives shouldn't have been either?

(By the way, you'll note that I wrote "Italian soil"?)

Bladensberg, first, it is not about Civilian matters, but about a war ILLEGALLY waged by the ISLAMOFASCISTS. Italy should have arrested the terrorist they found on "their soil" rather than give him , and for all we know others, a safe haven. The declaration opost 9/11 gives thwe armed forces the authority to persue terrorists anywhere they are.

Trese terrorists repect no sovregenty, no life, recognise no boundaries , recognise no law (other than the law of the religious sect/cult to which they belong) , engage in war crimes on eveery continent except Antartica, wear no uniforms, ansewr to no recognized national authority and are UNPROTECTED by any international law or convention as a result.

So, they are without standing, and your attempt to rationalize their behavior as you have is inappropriate. Ineed, I cannot understand why any rational person would attempt to legitimize these international war criminals that should be executed for their acts of violence.

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
Bladensberg, first, it is not about Civilian matters, but about a war ILLEGALLY waged by the ISLAMOFASCISTS. Italy should have arrested the terrorist they found on "their soil" rather than give him , and for all we know others, a safe haven. The declaration opost 9/11 gives thwe armed forces the authority to persue terrorists anywhere they are.

So you would rather our government stoop to the level of terrorist as well?

Trese terrorists repect no sovregenty, no life, recognise no boundaries , recognise no law (other than the law of the religious sect/cult to which they belong) , engage in war crimes on eveery continent except Antartica, wear no uniforms, ansewr to no recognized national authority and are UNPROTECTED by any international law or convention as a result.

What you said above pretty much describes the CIA as well. Not saying that to be nasty but think about it. That may be the way Italy sees anyone, government or organization that breaks their law.

No Italy needs to do all it can to find out who these convicted criminals (i.e. these CIA agents) are and pursue them without mercy in accordance with Italian Law, and International Law.

After all if Italian agents had donee the same here the U.S. would do the same thing.

In my view we may not agree that Italy had not turned that alleged terrorist to us, but what the CIA did is just as much kidnapping there as it is here.

Frisco

So, they are without standing, and your attempt to rationalize their behavior as you have is inappropriate. Ineed, I cannot understand why any rational person would attempt to legitimize these international war criminals that should be executed for their acts of violence.

And Peter before you jump on me. I will tell you this, I have loved ones in Israel, and I advocate driving the Palistinians out of the West Bank and Gaza into the sea if they do not surrender to and submit to Isreal.

My son-in-law is Israeli and feels much the same as you, that we should pursue them anywhere regardless of whose laws our agents break.

He and I have had this arguement, the difference in my mind is this. Italy is a civilized sovereign nation, guided by law, just as we are, we would like our laws - in fact - we demand that our laws be honored - why cannot Italy.

As for the Palistinians in the West Bank and Gaza they like AQ and Hezebollah are terrorist plain and simple have no claim to nationhood (IMO) and should either submit to Israel as conquered people or be destroyed as a group that does not recognize the rules of war.

The Roman Legions had a good cure for those types of barbarians and I really think their is good reason for adopting that attitude when a defeated enemy will not admit defeat and submit even in this day and age.

As Caligula stated: "It is ok if they hate us as long as they fear us too." (paraphrased)

Convoluted I know, sorry I wish I could make myself clearer as how I feel on this.

But that is it.

Frisco

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FriscoLady01,

First of all this guy was a terrorist later convicted for his crimes by the same prosecutor along with 11 others. He was an AQ recruiter and some of his recruits went on to kill US servicemen in Iraq.
Second, prior to his transfer to Egypt through Ramstein Air Base, where he was positively identified by those way up in the food chain, We told the Italian intelligence service of this operation.
The only reason this prosecutor knew anything is because some of those that "volunteered" for this were inexperienced as well as the contractors that also participated. Experienced agents dont make those kind of mistakes that were made.
Third, getting this guy off the streets probably saved hundreds of lives.
And finally, dont denigrate someone's service especially when you dont know what happened and why and how this work saved many American lives.

quote:

Originally posted by FriscoLady01:

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
Bladensberg, first, it is not about Civilian matters, but about a war ILLEGALLY waged by the ISLAMOFASCISTS. Italy should have arrested the terrorist they found on "their soil" rather than give him , and for all we know others, a safe haven. The declaration opost 9/11 gives thwe armed forces the authority to persue terrorists anywhere they are.

So you would rather our government stoop to the level of terrorist as well?

Trese terrorists repect no sovregenty, no life, recognise no boundaries , recognise no law (other than the law of the religious sect/cult to which they belong) , engage in war crimes on eveery continent except Antartica, wear no uniforms, ansewr to no recognized national authority and are UNPROTECTED by any international law or convention as a result.

What you said above pretty much describes the CIA as well. Not saying that to be nasty but think about it. That may be the way Italy sees anyone, government or organization that breaks their law.

No Italy needs to do all it can to find out who these convicted criminals (i.e. these CIA agents) are and pursue them without mercy in accordance with Italian Law, and International Law.

After all if Italian agents had donee the same here the U.S. would do the same thing.

In my view we may not agree that Italy had not turned that alleged terrorist to us, but what the CIA did is just as much kidnapping there as it is here.

Frisco

So, they are without standing, and your attempt to rationalize their behavior as you have is inappropriate. Ineed, I cannot understand why any rational person would attempt to legitimize these international war criminals that should be executed for their acts of violence.

And Peter before you jump on me. I will tell you this, I have loved ones in Israel, and I advocate driving the Palistinians out of the West Bank and Gaza into the sea if they do not surrender to and submit to Isreal.

My son-in-law and I have had this arguement, the difference in my mind is this. Italy is a civilized sovereign nation, guided by law, just as we are, we would like our laws - in fact - we demand that our laws be honored - why cannot Italy.

As for the Palistinians in the West Bank and Gaza they like AQ and Hezebollah are terrorist plain and simple have no claim to nationhood (IMO) and should either submit to Israel as conquered people or be destroyed as a group that does not recognize the rules of war.

The Roman Legions had a good cure for those types of barbarians and I really think their is good reason for adopting that attitude when a defeated enemy will not admit defeat and submit even in this day and age.

As Caligula stated: "It is ok if they hate us as long as they fear us too." (paraphrased)

Convoluted I know, sorry I wish I could make myself clearer as how I feel on this.

But that is it.

Frisco

They followed order's that there job. Dont kill the messager rings the bell.

quote:

Originally posted by world_king377:

quote:

Originally posted by FriscoLady01:

quote:

Originally posted by peter3_1:
Bladensberg, first, it is not about Civilian matters, but about a war ILLEGALLY waged by the ISLAMOFASCISTS. Italy should have arrested the terrorist they found on "their soil" rather than give him , and for all we know others, a safe haven. The declaration opost 9/11 gives thwe armed forces the authority to persue terrorists anywhere they are.

So you would rather our government stoop to the level of terrorist as well?

Trese terrorists repect no sovregenty, no life, recognise no boundaries , recognise no law (other than the law of the religious sect/cult to which they belong) , engage in war crimes on eveery continent except Antartica, wear no uniforms, ansewr to no recognized national authority and are UNPROTECTED by any international law or convention as a result.

What you said above pretty much describes the CIA as well. Not saying that to be nasty but think about it. That may be the way Italy sees anyone, government or organization that breaks their law.

No Italy needs to do all it can to find out who these convicted criminals (i.e. these CIA agents) are and pursue them without mercy in accordance with Italian Law, and International Law.

After all if Italian agents had donee the same here the U.S. would do the same thing.

In my view we may not agree that Italy had not turned that alleged terrorist to us, but what the CIA did is just as much kidnapping there as it is here.

Frisco

So, they are without standing, and your attempt to rationalize their behavior as you have is inappropriate. Ineed, I cannot understand why any rational person would attempt to legitimize these international war criminals that should be executed for their acts of violence.

And Peter before you jump on me. I will tell you this, I have loved ones in Israel, and I advocate driving the Palistinians out of the West Bank and Gaza into the sea if they do not surrender to and submit to Isreal.

My son-in-law and I have had this arguement, the difference in my mind is this. Italy is a civilized sovereign nation, guided by law, just as we are, we would like our laws - in fact - we demand that our laws be honored - why cannot Italy.

As for the Palistinians in the West Bank and Gaza they like AQ and Hezebollah are terrorist plain and simple have no claim to nationhood (IMO) and should either submit to Israel as conquered people or be destroyed as a group that does not recognize the rules of war.

The Roman Legions had a good cure for those types of barbarians and I really think their is good reason for adopting that attitude when a defeated enemy will not admit defeat and submit even in this day and age.

As Caligula stated: "It is ok if they hate us as long as they fear us too." (paraphrased)

Convoluted I know, sorry I wish I could make myself clearer as how I feel on this.

But that is it.

Frisco

They followed order's that there job. Dont kill the messager rings the bell.

Seems to me I have heard that arguement somewhere before. Just because they followed orders has nothing to do with the legality of what they did.

It was a criminal act in Italy and they have been convicted and they should do their time.

Our government would expect no less if their agents broke our laws within our national boundaries.

Frisco

quote:

Seems to me I have heard that arguement somewhere before. Just because they followed orders has nothing to do with the legality of what they did.

It was a criminal act in Italy and they have been convicted and they should do their time.

Our government would expect no less if their agents broke our laws within our national boundaries.

Frisco

This mission was carried out with the knowledge of the Italian intelligence service and Italy's ruling government has refused to ask for extradition no matter how many times this prosecutor asked.

I remember the Achille Lauro and Leon Klinghoffer, seemed that the Italians were pretty lenient to the terrorist.

quote:

Originally posted by FlankerFlyer:

quote:

Seems to me I have heard that arguement somewhere before. Just because they followed orders has nothing to do with the legality of what they did.

It was a criminal act in Italy and they have been convicted and they should do their time.

Our government would expect no less if their agents broke our laws within our national boundaries.

Frisco

This mission was carried out with the knowledge of the Italian intelligence service and Italy's ruling government has refused to ask for extradition no matter how many times this prosecutor asked.

Hardly surprising given how difficult the Italian government finds the Rule of Law. Berlusconi would have been in gaol years ago if he didn't manage to keep getting re-elected.

The "These were bad people so we can do what we like..." defence is frankly silly. One is responsible for one's own actions not those elsewhere, if one commits a crime apprehending a criminal one is the also a criminal, that the other person is too is not a "get out of jail free" card.
Furthermore the "I was just following orders" defence hasn't washed since Nuremberg.

Yes but This was sanction by there government. No one got hurt and the guy was already on a capture list. There is nothing illegal about this.

quote:

The "These were bad people so we can do what we like..." defence is frankly silly. One is responsible for one's own actions not those elsewhere, if one commits a crime apprehending a criminal one is the also a criminal, that the other person is too is not a "get out of jail free" card.

Given how your country has become a haven for thugs and terrorists and you refuse to extradite them I can see how you could have that opinion. Just a good little puppet, eh?

quote:

Originally posted by FlankerFlyer:
First of all this guy was a terrorist later convicted for his crimes by the same prosecutor along with 11 others. He was an AQ recruiter and some of his recruits went on to kill US servicemen in Iraq.
Second, prior to his transfer to Egypt through Ramstein Air Base, where he was positively identified by those way up in the food chain, We told the Italian intelligence service of this operation.
The only reason this prosecutor knew anything is because some of those that "volunteered" for this were inexperienced as well as the contractors that also participated. Experienced agents dont make those kind of mistakes that were made.
Third, getting this guy off the streets probably saved hundreds of lives.
And finally, dont denigrate someone's service especially when you dont know what happened and why and how this work saved many American lives.

And the US allowed a known terroist convicted of bombing an airliner as well as other attacks (all documented by the US as well) to spend time in the US because of politics. What would the US have done if the country that was the victim of those attacks had kidnaped him? Of course the US ignored a few cases where politically allied government killed opponents so the US government might not have done anything. Of course in this case the Italian government tried to prevent the trials as well.

quote:

Originally posted by world_king377:
Yes but This was sanction by there government. No one got hurt and the guy was already on a capture list. There is nothing illegal about this.

He was tortured for months and this is the SAME program that turned INNOCENT people over to other countries to be tortured as well because they did not have to follow the rules.

"MILAN – An Italian judge found 23 Americans and two Italians guilty Wednesday in the kidnapping of an Egyptian terror suspect, delivering the first legal convictions anywhere in the world against people involved in the CIA's extraordinary renditions program."

We the U.S.A. should suspend diplomatic relations and trade with Italy until these convictions are reversed

quote:

Originally posted by EAG154:
"MILAN – An Italian judge found 23 Americans and two Italians guilty Wednesday in the kidnapping of an Egyptian terror suspect, delivering the first legal convictions anywhere in the world against people involved in the CIA's extraordinary renditions program."

We the U.S.A. should suspend diplomatic relations and trade with Italy until these convictions are reversed

EAG154 if you actually knew anything about this case you would know that the last several Italian GOVERNMENTS (3 I think) tried to stop this prosecution but this Italian court is independent (just like the US SC is independent) so the Government has no control over what happens.