RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,175197,00.html

Another great post by you Carissa. Whats happening here is that these soldiers are completely wiped out from their deployments. Thier PTSD is raging and they need someone to turn to. If they (the military) doesn't get a grip soon, we'll lose many more in even higher record numbers. Its really ironic that you are an expendable item once you have returned from battle and don't have the want or your body and mind can't take anymore abuse. The military is quick to throw you out with the weekly trash headed for the landfill. What ever happened to taking care our our soldiers and their families? Have we already forgot the sacrifices that these individuals and their families have made? Are we that ungreatful? Seriously. We have veterans groups out here that are trying hard to get stuff done for these disturbed vets (like Military Spouses for Change), while other groups ( I won't mention who. It'll just give them more recognition) think its funny and its all about self recognition. WTf? Right? What we need to do is pull together and let the military and our commanders (anyone above your rank)know that this isn't a game and we are losing our brothers and sisters to a very disheartening disorder and that we all need extensive help when we return. We can train for combat, but what are we doing for our minds that control everything? Shouldn't the same amount of training go into that? Just a thought...

quote:

Originally posted by lansdale01:
RE: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,175197,00.html

Another great post by you Carissa. Whats happening here is that these soldiers are completely wiped out from their deployments. Thier PTSD is raging and they need someone to turn to. If they (the military) doesn't get a grip soon, we'll lose many more in even higher record numbers. Its really ironic that you are an expendable item once you have returned from battle and don't have the want or your body and mind can't take anymore abuse. The military is quick to throw you out with the weekly trash headed for the landfill. What ever happened to taking care our our soldiers and their families?

Exactly right.

Except that the three main Veteran's Organizations(and IAVA), DAV, VFW and Legion are ALL about helping Veterans... especially the IAVA...(OK 4 organizations).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Weatherguesser,

She makes some good points, but some of it would hurt units. She mentions not punishing misconduct for combat vets, but rather helping them seek treatment for PTSD. Now I am all for helping Soldiers get help, but misconduct is still misconduct and has to be dealt with fairly. It sets a horrible tone in a unit if PFC Snuffy home from Baghdad gets a DUI and nothing happens to him, but SPC Doe who hasn't deployed does the same thing and gets the book thrown at him. I am sure there are causes for those who have deployed to misbehave, but a unit can't allow a deployment to be an excuse for bad behavior.

I think the point of the article is being missed. Red flags should have gone up before this soldier killed his LT and himself. It's stated they believe he was AWOL. Is that normal behavior for this particular soldier? What misconduct we he being discharged for, and when did the misconduct pattern develop (before or after deployment)? People don’t normally go to this extreme without providing some signs and symptoms of a problem. So, we can do a buddy check from time to time, or we can bury more and more soldiers and veterans.

As sad as this whole situation is, there is no sense trying to read more into it than what is on the surface. This is not the first time a soldier has snapped and/or shot an officer. I doubt it will be the last. Holding hands and doing buddy-checks isn't going to prevent this.

This falls under "Sh*t Happens".

My sympathies to the families of the dead.

quote:

Originally posted by lansdale01:
What ever happened to taking care our our soldiers and their families?

I hate to break this to you now, but this hasn't happened since WWII. People have been complaining about the negligent and overall total **** job the VA has done since during Vietnam. And people haven't stopped complaining about veterans' treatment since then; the complaints haven't ever gone away at any point, they just get louder than before when there's a major conflict. We haven't been involved in a large, hellish counter-insurgency type conflict since Vietnam is all. Hell, I've even heard complaints about the VA not giving a crap about disabled veterans in a Dead Kennedys song from the 80s (Rambozo the Clown).

The latest outcry from the left over BS behavior of the VA has been since at least 2003 (since guys were already coming back from Afghanistan by then, plus the first months of the Iraq occupation). There's been a crazy amount of articles on instances of negligence by the VA (I've constantly seen new ones on www.crooksandliars.com), but few if any even get a single write-up in the major wire services, and none get on US TV "news" (*note: not actually news). These problems get so much coverage, yet because of how the mass media works, get so little coverage in places where people actually see.

Yes this kind of tragedy has happened many times during past wars and conflicts, and will continue.

But in those past times there was a shared sacrifice because of the draft.

6+ years. What do we call this? If it's a war then all America should contribute. But the powers that be won't do so; wouldn't be a politically smart move. A conflict? Going on 7 years? Hmm..

Remember that Fram commercial - you can pay me now or you can pay me later..

Three points:

This is only the tip of the iceberg and it’s going to get far worse before it gets better. Our Veterans Administration, our politicians, and especially our ungrateful Nation (Remember the military is at war, the Nation is at the mall) are not prepared for the catastrophic fallout of fighting a long extracted war on two fronts (soon maybe to be three?) with a military that is designed, manned and equipped for peacetime!

If this Soldier was getting out of the service, in no way had anyone properly prepared him or his family for their next step and the stress that’s involved. Remember when Veterans got out in past wars they went back to extended families until they could get back on their feet, we all know what has happened to most families in America.

No one will ever understand what these young Men and Women are facing or having to deal with until they’ve walked a mile in their shoes and seen the horror they’ve seen and faced the fear they’ve faced, often times only to come back to cheating spouses and drained bank accounts. So sending them to some specialist or doctor who has a thousand degrees in Psychology to tell them it’s going to be okay, is absolutely worthless.

quote:

Originally posted by RetDoc:
Yes this kind of tragedy has happened many times during past wars and conflicts, and will continue.

But in those past times there was a shared sacrifice because of the draft.

6+ years. What do we call this? If it's a war then all America should contribute. But the powers that be won't do so; wouldn't be a politically smart move. A conflict? Going on 7 years? Hmm..

Remember that Fram commercial - you can pay me now or you can pay me later..

The draft would share the sacrifice, and prevent invasions like Iraq from ever taking place, but it would also result in a WAAAAYYYYY less motivated and WAAAAAYYYY less professional military than we have right now.

Any blame for troubles we're currently having lie in 2 places: the federal government, and the mass media.

The whole idea of the draft is a relic of a bygone era. It has no place in Great Powers (or Super Powers) in the modern era. Great Powers don't invade other Great Powers, and obviously minor powers don't invade Great Powers. Vietnam was an awesome example of what happens when the draft is used to staff an army to do something other than defense of the country. There was several major issues that made it a losing proposition. And the widespread popular opposition to the war didn't even end it when it should have. By the 1970s the federal government was already well-insulated from the consequences of protests and draft riots. The war continued for more years.

Always amazes me when a draft of TODAY, is compared with a draft GOING ON 40 YEARS AGO, as if the two would even remotely be the same. The ONLY reason there is no talk of a draft is because of this comparison. Other than actual SERVICE TO ONE'S COUNTRY, someone explain to me why today's draft would even have to remotely resemble (other than the service part) the one we had 40 years ago. There is not one Branch of the military that today looks like it did then.

In addition I would add that at most times there used to be a distinction between a "wartime" Army dealing with the stresses of combat, and a "garrison" Army dealing with the stresses of Garrison.

Now however the two have been merged and not only do you deal with combat stress, but thanks largely to an OFFICER idea of "let's make the combat zone resemble a garrison environment" the two have been blurred.

Thus today you have Soldiers not only dealing with the stressors of actual combat but the assinine garrison "rules" made even more so by being in a combat zone. Some of these are:

Make sure your in the right uniform and clean when going to the dining hall (let's see I just came of a week patrol can get a good meal, haven't had a shower nor place to take one and I am denied a meal cause of the way I look)

Physical Fitness Test in a war zone (enough said)

Other "create chaos in the ranks" where none would be but we have to make ourselves look good" such as reinventing the wheel for programs that are already in place and working, but because they don't fit someone else's "idea" let's change them.

Tickets for driving without a license (yeah you have it you just forgot to have it on you with the other 100 forms of ID your required to carry)

correct PT uniform when going to the gym (hello I am going to a gym in a combat zone, what I lift weights in shouldn't matter)

daytime formations for those working night shift,

TONS of MANDATORY training that don't involve your section, MOS, job, etc at all. (Oh one Soldier got drunk, let's make all 130,000 of em take an "alcohol awareness" course)

In short what I am trying to say is combat as we know is a STRESSFUL environment, yet the Army seems willing to ADD MORE STRESS with stupid *ss policies, procedures, rules, etc just to make someone feel good about themselves and show their Soldiers as "DISCIPLINED" for no reason other than to add to the chaos.

I feel it is this type of "stressor" (having to deal with the ignorant crap) more so than the stressors of combat that add to PTSD. Let's face it most Soldiers want to do their jobs and do them well, it is the added BS stressors that are placed on them for no other reason than to make their "Command look good" for someone else that finally bring them to the breaking point.

quote:

Originally posted by ronald45:
Always amazes me when a draft of TODAY, is compared with a draft GOING ON 40 YEARS AGO, as if the two would even remotely be the same. The ONLY reason there is no talk of a draft is because of this comparison. Other than actual SERVICE TO ONE'S COUNTRY, someone explain to me why today's draft would even have to remotely resemble (other than the service part) the one we had 40 years ago. There is not one Branch of the military that today looks like it did then.

The only reason? How about the main reason, which is that a draft would likely mean an END to the war in IRAQ? A national "service" program for ALL 18-25 year olds for at least 2 years of service, either in the Military or serving in the community, in some form would be the preferred solution, eh?

One thing is certain... a forced-draft that is administered Un-Equally will be a total failure.

Big 'MA' Green - a 'motherhood' issue? Sounds communistical!

At least since 2006, the U.S.Army Medical Corps has been conducting surveys and observations of the mental fitness of our ground forces in Iraq. The problems related to multiple tours, to inadequate rest and recuperation, and to a breakdown in ethical discipline have had great bearing on the mental fitness of the soldiers, who have had to deal with recurring acts of sabotage, and subsequent mistreatment of civilians and insurgents alike.

"You can do a lot of things with bayonets; but one thing you can't do is sit on them!" (German Chancellor Otto von Bismarck's advice to the Kaiser, when the Kaiser mulled over the idea of permanently occupying all of France, which he had just conquered during the Franco-Prussian War.)

In order to cope with the morally unjustifiable occupation and subjugation of another country and its people, soldiers will develop either a consumate hatred and loathing of the subject people, which keeps them from feeling any guilt or responsibility for the fundamental injustice inherent in such an occupation; or the soldiers start to identify with the plight of the subject people. The latter case leads to deep internal moral conflicts; and that is what is happening to so many of our troops.

In order to cope with these very natural reactions, the U.S. Army should have imposed very strict discipline and a zealous adherence to the very 'spirit' aa well as the 'letter' of the Geneva Conventions; and should have made tours of duty short and far between. Without the steady pool of new recruits, which a draft would have provided, the Army had to hope for the "hatred and loathing" attitude and rationale to prevail among the soldiers. The Medical Corps report IV, prepared in 2006, was especially harsh on the officer corps, which allowed the aggressive type of behavior to go unpunished. The response of the Army to the soldiers, who were "losing it" (i.e. becoming depressed or disillusioned with what was going on), was almost as bad: i.e. to administer mind-numbing and mind-altering drugs, interspersed with pep pills and sleeping pills.

All the attention toward the soldiers suffering from PTSD is just coping with symptoms and not directed toward the prevention. The wars against Islamic extremists are not like other wars we have fought. We are trying to kill a religion, its ideals, and its aspirations by killing or incarcerating those among them who stand out as leaders, as fighters, as sympathizers, or even as family. There are tens of thousands of men and women who are forced to live with this moral dilemma, for which they were not prepared. Most of them will live lives of silent desperation and disillusions. Some will ultimately "snap".

Just curious: how do the numbers break down between Army and Marines? As a Marine in Vietnam, I thought that we were all each other's battle buddies. When Bush started this war, he was slashing VA funding as fast as possible. There was zero forethought for tending for the warrior after the battle. All of this was foreseeable but the money has gone to Blackwater and KBR instead. Just another testimonial to the worst leadership in American history. I thank God that I had a good support system when I returned. A lot of today's warfighters do not have that luxury and need support from the same government that sent them in harm's way. With repeated deployments, we are burning our people out and this is the personal cost they must pay. Services cost money and Bush has bankrupted our economy so it will be very difficult to fund programs that do not deliver weapons or provide earmarks for our corrupt politicians. Our warfighters deserve more than lip service, they deserve our respect and support. How we answer their call after they have answered their nation's call will provide real insight as to the type of country we truly are. And, as we continue to dip even farther down into the manpower pool, and the services continue to dilute their recruiting standards, this problem will only get worse. We who have served need to get involved. Join any of the veterans service organizations and contact your congressman. If you have time, volunteer. Any positive effort will help. Semer Fi!

quote:

Originally posted by badmac933:
As sad as this whole situation is, there is no sense trying to read more into it than what is on the surface. This is not the first time a soldier has snapped and/or shot an officer. I doubt it will be the last. Holding hands and doing buddy-checks isn't going to prevent this.

This falls under "Sh*t Happens".

My sympathies to the families of the dead.

Maybe in the Navy "buddy check" means holding hands...it doesn't in the Army. NCOs and fellow soldiers are responsible for each other. That's how soldiers stay alive. Battle-Buddies extend beyond combat. Don't listen to the squid...watch each other.

There is so much info from the "not doing enough" side and not much answer from the "this is what we are doing side..

We, 39IBCT, prior to our deployment in 2004 to Iraq, got at least one if not two phych health briefings, no less than 2 while we were in country with all the "buddy check" stuff - if there was a soldier in question, meet with the chain of command and the unit chaplin...if the unit chaplin feels there is a need advance to the bn surgeon and with his approval forward the soldier to warrior rest or what ever it was called for a break and counselling... we received what I would call an abreviated Q/A session with a mental health person just prior to re-deployment with a PDHRA, another eval once on the ground in the states during our post-mob outprocessing, and three visits from the mental health section from Walter Reid during unit training assemblies which occupied both days of the drill... So, overall, at least 7 visits with social/psych evaluators in the three years surrounding our deployment...

I don't know if the AD does it differently, but we got "attention".

I'm with most of you guys, good article, but $hit happens and fragging and misconduct will happen, and always has since Cain v. Able.

quote:

Originally posted by SkipHadaway:
There is so much info from the "not doing enough" side and not much answer from the "this is what we are doing side..

We, 39IBCT, prior to our deployment in 2004 to Iraq, got at least one if not two phych health briefings, no less than 2 while we were in country with all the "buddy check" stuff - if there was a soldier in question, meet with the chain of command and the unit chaplin...if the unit chaplin feels there is a need advance to the bn surgeon and with his approval forward the soldier to warrior rest or what ever it was called for a break and counselling... we received what I would call an abreviated Q/A session with a mental health person just prior to re-deployment with a PDHRA, another eval once on the ground in the states during our post-mob outprocessing, and three visits from the mental health section from Walter Reid during unit training assemblies which occupied both days of the drill... So, overall, at least 7 visits with social/psych evaluators in the three years surrounding our deployment...

I don't know if the AD does it differently, but we got "attention".

I'm with most of you guys, good article, but $hit happens and fragging and misconduct will happen, and always has since Cain v. Able.

Actually Skip, my last posting was advice from the side that IS doing something. Everyone of us to the man on the Oregon National Guard Reintegration Team advise soldiers and family every chance we get to keep an eye on each other. As a former ARNG soldier, you know as well as I do, when the troops are released you loose eyes-on. If you don't know what's happening to your soldiers, you can't do a damn thing to help them. Yes you are absolutely right, $hit happens, but that's not an excuse to just sit back and watch it. If you can help, help. If you can't, get the hell out of the way. It's great that you had the amount of eyes-on that your unit had. I applaud the efforts of the PDHRA folk, Med Command and local Commanders for their proactivity. And I'm sure you only wish the best for our troops. Thank you for your service.

I'm not exactly sure when people lost their nerve and became a pile of raving fire crotch in this country but damn. I WAS THERE. I was went from one part of that country to the other and this PTSD crap is just plain that crap. I agree there are some people that do need help. But for the vast majority of these people being diagnosted for PTSD is just straight up an excuse.

quote:

Originally posted by NickBrand:
I'm not exactly sure when people lost their nerve and became a pile of raving fire crotch in this country but damn. I WAS THERE. I was went from one part of that country to the other and this PTSD crap is just plain that crap. I agree there are some people that do need help. But for the vast majority of these people being diagnosted for PTSD is just straight up an excuse.

Then I suggest you contact your elected representative and demand they cancel the National Guard Bureau "Yellow Ribbon" program and the VA PTSD outreach, in-patient and out-patient treatment programs. Obviously in your view they are a complete waste of money.