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Originally posted by Proudformermarine:

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Originally posted by schmiddc:
502 $ is 70% of your federal total, that would your federal somewhere between 700 and 800, so that means you are paying 1200-1300 dollars in taxes (state and federal) for the entire YEAR?

Thats NOTHING, thats not even enough to pay for you and your family's share of the cost for the defense budget, let alone every thing else you get from the government,somebody is paying your way, namely me...

I don't like paying taxes either, but as a single person (until this may anyway) with a decent income and no house I pay a ton of taxes (a lot more than you). But, I'm okay with that, the American tax burden is lower than any other industrialized country in the world.
Taxes and the current boogie man of the week (Barak Obama, Hippies, Gays, environmentalists, Mexican onion pickers, the "MSM", etc..) are not the reason we're getting squeezed, its the "taxes schmaxes, we'll just borrow it from China" attitude that the current administration has displayed that has devalued our currency and made all of the vital world commodities, like oil, that much more expensive. A couple billion Chinese and Indians deciding that they want to live like westerners doesn't help either.

You may not like tax and spend, but spend and borrow is even worse.

So you think that America can cut its already low taxes and still keep up its defense budget (which I agree needs to be robust), and keep up with its non-negotiable obligations like interest on the national debt and still avoid ending up like some guilded-age oliver twist hellhole? Well, I'm all ears...

We can whine whine whine about people who aren't the problem, or offer half-assed solutions to the problem (we cannot drill our way to cheap oil, the numbers just don't add up), or we can suck it up and fix the problem...

First, I don't ask for jack from my government. And if you think you're paying my way, think again.....I didn't see you around my house this month when the rent came due. Did you buy my gas today??? No. And I could care less how much you pay in taxes, that's not my problem. Sounds to me that you're o.k. paying for illegals' medical care, welfare and unemployment, so have at it. I don't like it. I see their sorry drug addicted azzes sleeping on the beach, only getting up to collect their welfare check or march in some anti-war protest. Make no mistake, they and those who think like them are the ENEMY. They stand for NOTHING except free hand-outs while taking checks paid for by me and you. Glad you're happy about it, I'm NOT.

Duane A. Brinson Kailua-Kona Hi.
U.S.M.C. 1985-1989

P.S. Drilling in ANWAR may not be the solution, but it sure COULDN'T HURT!!!!

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Originally posted by Proudformermarine:

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Originally posted by schmiddc:
well, no, but then again you don't buy those things for me either.

Don't ask for jack from our government? Well, I don't know your status intimately, but you do indeed get things whether you ask for them or not. Things such as a criminal justice system, the national defense that we all share commonly, the Securities and exchange commission protecting and penalizing investment fraud, the FDA keeping drugs like thalidomide off the shelves, etc.. If 700 some odd dollars is all you are paying, somebody else is carrying some of that burden for you, its simple math.

So, according to YOU I don't pay enough in taxes? Well, I now know what kind of "person" I'm dealing with. Who the F#@* are YOU to say I'm not carrying my share of the load....I work full time, (just came off a 20 straight day stretch) pay my own bills, and have NEVER been on ANY kind of assistance....And my taxes aren't enough for you......Tough ****. That's $1200 that I WORKED for NOT going into my pocket....But don't you DARE tell me I'm not doing my share....As you cash your check from the Government Mr. Defense contractor...Stiff the American TAXPAYER for any $400 wrenches lately?
GFY

Duane A. Brinson Kailua-Kona Hi.
U.S.M.C. 1985-1989

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Originally posted by 10tenths:

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Originally posted by woodyarn:

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Originally posted by 10tenths:
I love sonar threads, because none of you know anything about sonar. Hawaii waters are a tiny bit better for active sonar than SoCal waters, just as long as your aren't chasing seamounts all day long.

The only time I, as a Sonar Supervisor or ASW Evaluator, ever used active sonar was when I needed second sensor criteria (in a pinch) to execute a contact. Other than that, I use the tail and sonobuoys. Or, I use tracks from other ships in the strike group via SIPRNET.

I cannot even begin to try to explain to those who are not familiar with sonar how insignificant active sonar is. I used it only as a last resort when I was in charge of the shack. And, my ship was damn close to getting the Bloodhound Award. We were one of the best ASW platforms in the entire Navy.

9 times out of 10 when we go active it is for one of three reasons: we are doing maintenance on the hull-mounted array that requires active transmissions, we need the second sensor criteria for execution (if this is the case, that means that the contact is WAY too close), or we are just pinging away so that the bootcamp E-nothings can hear the squeaks and chirps of active sonar. Other than that, we use the streamed array AN/SQR-19B passive array. Because it is more effective (you can place it in different thermoclines within the water). Also, it gets far better ranges than the hull-mounted active array (you can hear earthquakes that originated in Japan when you are off the coast of California). And, ding, ding! You aren't printing yourself to the enemy. When we do training, we use the OBT anyhow. Hint: there are no active transmissions when you are using the OBT because it is all simulated (but, extremely effective training).

And, trust me on this, if we absolutely need to go active (i.e. there is a Kilo off of the coast of California) we can do so without reprimand.

Now why did you have to go and rune a perfectly good "Hate Thread" with facts. You should be assamed of yourself trying to educate people with facts

Eh, sorry. It just boils my blood when people turn this into a huge issue when they do not know a darn thing about ASW or sonar. This isn't nearly as political as people make it out to be, this is more along the lines of what it's usefulness is in those areas. Sure, if there is a sub-threat in those areas, we can use active sonar at will. But, even then I guarantee that we will be in IIAS and have have lance searcher (active transmissions) strangled.

And, like I said, we use the OBT for most of our training. Yes, we do do JTFEX and the like where we play real wargames. But, even then we are much more successful using passive sonar, sonobuoys and intel.

I do know a few sonar sups that love to go active (mostly 53 techs). But, at the end of the day, they were hitting something like 20%. Whereas my sonar team was hitting in the high 90 percentile and always got the first shot off.

Active is useful in some ocean environments. But, most of the Pacific isn't very useful do to it's sound speed profiles. Especially near SoCal, Hawaii and near the Pacific Islands.

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Originally posted by deepsand:

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Originally posted by khyland:
INCREMENTALISM

First the liberal tree huggers shut down the west coast ASW operations,now Hawaii.In no time flat rest assured they will be going after the east coast fleet.So before you know it we won't be able to train the way we need to because of the tree huggers.This type of training HAS to take place close to shore,it is not something you can simulate on a computer or read in a book.If our country expects the Navy to safeguard the Country from threats from the sea why in God's name do we hamstring them from doing their job.

You would be well advised to more carefully select your words in the future, as there are those present here who hold a deep and abiding respect for our environment, and thus greatly resent your ungrounded use of the pejorative "tree-hugger."

I suggest that you stick to demonstable empirical facts, as opposed to emotional ad hominem outbursts.

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Originally posted by deepsand:

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Originally posted by MPKHT2:
I'm inclined to believe that if we place marine mammals before national security, then we very well may not have any grandchildren to enjoy anything! Yes, respect the environment but, protect America first!

But, if we do not protect our envirnoment, where might our descendants live?

It's not a case of either one or the other, but one of both.

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Originally posted by deepsand:

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Originally posted by sectogod:
Got to love the tree huggers, if they don't have someone or something to complain about, then they aren't doing their job. I was a sonar tech for 6 years and we never had a problem with whales or dolphins. Hell the dolphins used to ride the bow wave when we were pinging. If it was hurting them then why the hell were they there? The tree hugers said that hunting deer was unjust also. I guess they would rather see them starve to death. I've seen a few deer that have starved and it's not a pretty site. National security doesn't matter anymore to some people.

More than a few claims; but, absolutely no support for such.

In case you hadn't noticed, many "tree-huggers" are in fact hunters; were you a true hunter yourself you'd already know both that and the why.

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Originally posted by SUBVET601:
Yo DEEPSAND why don't you just bury yourself and make this world a better place.
What credentials do you have to make any of the rants that you have been going on?
As a former Subarine Sonar Tech even though it was only from '67 to '69 I can assure you that active sonar is only used as a matter of LAST DEFENSE and I am SURE that our technology has exceeded my wildest dreams as far as SONAR is concerned since I left the service .GET A LIFE and get off the NAVY's back. Can't you go out and find an owl to save or a few rats? And just to let you know I've always paid my taxes as well as opon exiting the service joining the NY State Police until Disability retirement.

Proud to say Former STS SSBN601 (G)

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Originally posted by khyland:

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Originally posted by deepsand:

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Originally posted by khyland:
INCREMENTALISM

First the liberal tree huggers shut down the west coast ASW operations,now Hawaii.In no time flat rest assured they will be going after the east coast fleet.So before you know it we won't be able to train the way we need to because of the tree huggers.This type of training HAS to take place close to shore,it is not something you can simulate on a computer or read in a book.If our country expects the Navy to safeguard the Country from threats from the sea why in God's name do we hamstring them from doing their job.

You would be well advised to more carefully select your words in the future, as there are those present here who hold a deep and abiding respect for our environment, and thus greatly resent your ungrounded use of the pejorative "tree-hugger."

I suggest that you stick to demonstable empirical facts, as opposed to emotional ad hominem outbursts.

Advise this pal ,you and your tree hugging friends can get in your row boat and throw your law books all you want.

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Originally posted by khyland:

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Originally posted by deepsand:

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Originally posted by MPKHT2:
I'm inclined to believe that if we place marine mammals before national security, then we very well may not have any grandchildren to enjoy anything! Yes, respect the environment but, protect America first!

But, if we do not protect our envirnoment, where might our descendants live?

It's not a case of either one or the other, but one of both.

WELL MR BOONE WE CAN ALL JOIN YOU IN LA LA LAND

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Originally posted by khyland:

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Originally posted by deepsand:

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Originally posted by sectogod:
Got to love the tree huggers, if they don't have someone or something to complain about, then they aren't doing their job. I was a sonar tech for 6 years and we never had a problem with whales or dolphins. Hell the dolphins used to ride the bow wave when we were pinging. If it was hurting them then why the hell were they there? The tree hugers said that hunting deer was unjust also. I guess they would rather see them starve to death. I've seen a few deer that have starved and it's not a pretty site. National security doesn't matter anymore to some people.

More than a few claims; but, absolutely no support for such.

In case you hadn't noticed, many "tree-huggers" are in fact hunters; were you a true hunter yourself you'd already know both that and the why.

AND NOW YOU SIT IN JUDGEMENT AS TO WHO THE TRUE HUNTERS ARE.GET REAL,YOU MUST LOVE THE SOUND OF YOUR OWN WORDS AND FAWN OVER YOUR OWN CHIROGRAPHY

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US Navy ships use sonar for detection. Whales and dolphins navigate and find fish with their sonar. Their eyes are useless underwater. Whales and dolphins produce high pitched clicks. When these clicks hit an object, some of the sound will echo back to them.

The Navy's sonar would screw up whales and dolphins eyes beneath the sea. High-intensity sonar blasts whales with noise billions of times more intense than levels known to disturb them and can cause their internal organs to hemorrhage. Scientists have linked the use of military sonar to hundreds of stranded whales and deaths around the world.