RE: http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,154578,00.html

Are they STUPID!!!

USAFNCO (retired)

RE: http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,154578,00.html

Believe that it was back during the Lincoln Presidency that Congress thought about doing away with the "Patents' Office", because there were those who thought that all that could be invented, had been done so.....Draw your own
parallel.....Clint Moses

To quote Ronald Reagan, "There they go again." So the Army is failing miserably and the best they can conclude is to abolish the Air Force? And note they quote Petraeus--an Army general--that air power can cause harm? Yes it does--to our enemies and the ego of Army officers who have been trying to discredit the Air Force ever since Operation DESERT STORM proved that air power can win wars--remember the Iraqi soldiers surrendering to airplanes. And then there was Operation ALLIED FORCE. They were just flukes no doubt. And let's see when looking for really big successes we have the USAF defeating the USSR without having to fire a shot--because the Red Army darn well wasn't afraid of the US Army! But it was terrified of SAC and USAFE. Here's a solution...put the Army in the National Guard and let the USAF defend the nation--everyone will sleep better.

quote:

Originally posted by jarnold15:
To quote Ronald Reagan, "There they go again." So the Army is failing miserably and the best they can conclude is to abolish the Air Force? And note they quote Petraeus--an Army general--that air power can cause harm? Yes it does--to our enemies and the ego of Army officers who have been trying to discredit the Air Force ever since Operation DESERT STORM proved that air power can win wars--remember the Iraqi soldiers surrendering to airplanes. And then there was Operation ALLIED FORCE. They were just flukes no doubt. And let's see when looking for really big successes we have the USAF defeating the USSR without having to fire a shot--because the Red Army darn well wasn't afraid of the US Army! But it was terrified of SAC and USAFE. Here's a solution...put the Army in the National Guard and let the USAF defend the nation--everyone will sleep better.

For starters the Army is not failing miserably in Iraq.

The article misuses the intent of General Petraeus, however he is correct. The excessive use of airpower can be harmful in a counter insurgency since the intent is to fight the insurgents and befriend the people. Excessive use of airpower causes excessive collateral damage and turns the civilian population into enemies.

Were Desert Storm and Allied Force flukes? Yes they were. The first air units arrived in Saudi Arabia days after Iraq invaded Kuwait, and the buildup lasted six months. Iraq's Army was in nearly open positions in the desert and were demoralized. Never again will an enemy give us half a year to build up a force, and sit in fixed defensive positions just waiting to be bombed.

Allied Force was not nearly as successful as it was made out to be early on. Very little real harm was done to the Serb military, just as an example NATO estimates were that more than 100 tanks had been destroyed, the real number was about 15. Many experts think the air campaign didn't end the conflict, the threat of ground invasion did.

The Air Force has a role, but it is misguided to think the Air Force by itself wins wars. They certainly provide a force multiplier, but wars are won by boots on the ground. Now the Army might be able to win a war on its own, but we would take a lot more losses, and the Army needs the Air Force to provide that top cover.

You have absolutely now idea of what you are talking about. What a fool! I feel sorry for your you, your family, and friends and have to put up with your foolish ideas.

Why don't you try reading some real history and not comic books?

Proud of my Air Force,
Retired NCO

quote:

Originally posted by 10346016:
You have absolutely now idea of what you are talking about. What a fool! I feel sorry for your you, your family, and friends and have to put up with your foolish ideas.

Why don't you try reading some real history and not comic books?

Proud of my Air Force,
Retired NCO

I have a degree in history, so I assure you I have read a lot of real history.

Other than that if all you can do is insult me rather than provide factual information just shows that you don't have anything that really shows I am wrong.

As an prior AF NCO I do understand what the Air Force brings to the fight, probably more than most since I worked in AFSPC for several years and those capabilities don't often make the news. The fact remains that the Air Force is a supporting force to support the boots on the ground. It is not a lesser mission, but the Air Force cannot solely fight the nation's wars.

What about disbanding the Army. I was never so happy to get out of the Army and Go to the blue. How about disbanding the Army and placing these folks into the Marine Corp and National Guard. People blame Bush for the trouble in Iraq. I blame the incompetance of the ARMY. Had the Marine Corps been in charge along with the Navy and Air Force, this would all be over by now.

People who think we should disband the air force are idiots. And sorry to say, the ****ing POGs (Person Other than Grunt) who are talking **** to the infantry on the front lines, like you actually do something are a bunch of *****es. Shut up, yes you air force *****es do stuff (Like bomb US and the British while we are trying to kill people) and play a role, but your life isn't that hard. Just stick to drinking your coffee behind your desks while we get the job done. The Marines always lead the way, including our pilots, but they're still a bunch of lax *****es.

WOW, all this bickering when it's just a bunch of idiots talking smack. Who are these people talking about disbanding the Air Force? Never heard of them.

Ok, from another point of view, you can really disband any branch but the navy becuase it's one of its kind. You can say...get rid of the army and put them in the corps or vice versa, get rid of the coast guard and put them in the navy, get rid of the air force and put them in the marines or navy...but we need diversity among the military and people to specialize in their respective fields. You can't have one branch running everything becuase its just simply too big of a task to train men, run the war, and to keep on top of supplies. If you have more people specializing in their areas and focusing on it, things will get done quicker and easier without the confusion and overwhelming task all on one branch.

Nspreitler should be sterilized so he can't have any children and his mother should be slapped for having such an idiot for a son(?). My years as an AF NCO having to attend several schools where Army personnel was in attendance was like sitting with a class of kindergarden kids. Same mentality. Its a wonder that Air Force NCOs in many career fields do the same jobs that Army officers are assigned. Wonder why? I don't. Had to be a dumb ground pounder to come up with such an assinie suggestion as to disband the Air Force. Talking smack deserves a smack!

I think the author of DISBAND THE AIR FORCE has an interesting point of view. However having served alongside the fine men and women of all the services for my entire adult life, I would have to say that compartmentalizing mission roles is necessary. We all are dedicated to the profession of arms, but the capacity in which we choose to apply our craft must remain clearly defined systemically. Take a Soldier that has mastered his craft, someone that leads the charge on battle field. Now inform the Solder that you are going to take his weapon away and give him a new job. Describe the job, “Sergeant for the rest of your career you will not set foot on a battle field. Your new weapon is a calculator and a pencil. You will attend two years of academic training where you have a 60% chance of becoming qualified to use your new weapon in the defense of your country. I am sorry to inform you that, because your new MOS is so competitive, the earliest you can hope to make E-7 is 15 years of service. Also, you need to complete a bachelor’s degree before you can hope to make E-9. The next time you will lead Soldiers is after you make E-8. The mission will require you to be on the road about 270 days per year, even in peace time. The upshot is you get to fly as a crewmember on jets.” Do you think a trained Soldier would enjoy this job? Ok, let’s look at a Cadet. “Cadet, in the next 4 years you are expected to master the profession of arms as it relates to land, air, and space based tactics. You will be trained to lead all aspects of the global mission, battle field, battle space, and cyber space. In your studies you will not fall prey to centralized task focus. This course of study combined with your chosen major will be mixed with intramural sports and field training.” Any takers? These are only two examples of why I think the author’s idea would fail. The rebuttal probably goes something like this. By truncating Air Force functions and incorporating them into the Army we would save money and be better able to fight terrorist threats. I respect the author’s point of view; however, many smart people have worked to perfect both Army and Air Force doctrines for decades. If the author can provide a General or Admiral that can effectively lead a force using his proposed doctrine do it. I believe that senior officer has yet to be born.

Air Force Master Sergeant

We are at the onset of lunacy if we restructure our triad of forces stemming from current conflicts. Has anyone looked to the future? Many have studeously concluded that the Air Force is a support agency, but the same falls true with all forces. The are ALL interdependent for support. The Navy and Air Force are critical assets for defending their realms of sea and air; both of which are THE primary defenders of each respectively. However, you cannot fight the wars at sea and in the air with current Marine and Army forces. What about cyberspace? Do we throw that into the mix as well? How about Missile defense?

What drives this BS is the matter that we don't have enough resources for the current "wars" in Iraq and Afghanistan; to which neither deserve our attention. We need ground troops badly, but to get them by theft and lunacy based on illconceived notions is not only rediculous, but incredibly dangerous. How would anyone propose entering into a new conflict, with either Iran or China? Ground troops? Not hardly. What's the first rule in war? Take out the enemy's ability to defend themselves, (eliminate their communications, intelligence, resupply capabilities).

From this, it seems, the "SUPPORT" forces have a real defined role here, do they not?

Lastly, we learned an incredibly valuable lesson in WWII. Communications AND Airpower (both of which were deflated by the Army and Navy) were lesser in importance at the time, but found to be the very key to our potential in losing the war if we had not awakened to common sense. The Air Force provides a mission focus to Airpower and Cyberdefense, and to have them assimilated into other services would only cloud that focus--revisiting the very mistakes we had made in WWII, Korea, and Viet-Nam. Are we sure this is smart? Are we allowing this "rhetoric" to drive our emotions? Or, is it better to reassess this logically (with the future in mind)?

I was thinking of him as playing the devils advocate. However I believe he's either looking to get publicity to himself or he's a Fifth Columnist. Only a real pea brain would want to eliminate a military service that has proven itself time and time again. Would you want to do the same with the Marine Corp. Just lump them in with the US Army. Point is you can make an argument for anything.
Every thing sounds good on paper until you have to do it for real.

Bob

My question is this.
Who came up with the Idiotic idea of disbanding the Air Force? It is very obvious that this individual has little or no Combat experience. Boots on the Ground may be a good slogan but without good Air power to cover your sorry ***, your boots may remain on the ground with the toes pointed up. I am a Viet Nam Vet and I was actively involved in the support of close air support missions in South Viet Nam In the Mid 60's. I would not want to be the one telling the boys on the ground tha were eating dirt that Air Power was not available or some ******* general thought it was a good idea to disband the Air Force. Some of these good men thought air cover was effevtive enough to call air strikes on their own poeitions. We must not forget that Air Power was what caught us with our pants down at Pearl Harbor

Perhaps we should consider abandoning the ridiculous idea that just because someone ran a corporation or was an attorney or worse supported the President that they are qualified to run the Air Force. Why not leave management of the Force to the military experts who have devoted their lives to the Service.

Retired MSgt/FSgt

I have been boots on the ground and know the value of the need for the Air Force. Anyone who thinks that their is no need for the AF is misguided. I am currently in Afghanistan as a contractor and my team recently had a situation that needed air support and we were told no due to the lack of air assets. I am sure the enemy is glad that some bean counter thought that it was a good idea not to send enoug planes to get the job done. The ratio of enemy to friendly's were 5 bad to one good. We go were the Army will not. This is all about politics. Politics have killed more Americans than any other group of people. Maby we should send them out on the ground and see if they think they need the Air Force then. I have family who have served in every branch of the Armed Services. I am proud of The ARmy, Marines, Navy, and The Air Force.

Well now that the Air Force has stopped trying to disband itself throught the planes for people campaing that, failed miserably, we now have major budget issues. Yet they keep paying more for civilian contractors to take over AF job slots in the maintanance world. Also we use harmfull chemicals and don't have money to even buy the protective gloves and equipment needed to carry out our jobs. Yes this may be taken as "complaining" over small stuff, but when your are told from day one in maintanence to not get this stuff on you due to its cancer causing properties, you need that stuff. Oh yeah and if you need to wash the grime of jet fuel, oil and hydro fluid off oneself, we don't even have money to get soap to wash up!?! So this talk of disbanding, I think the AF is taking care of that itself through giving money twards comforting the civilian employees with there fancy tools and facilities while we are sweating it out in 125+ degree hangers, getting the mission done.

quote:

Originally posted by 10391046:
Shut up, yes you air force *****es do stuff (Like bomb US and the British while we are trying to kill people) *****es.

I was one of the guys in afghanistan that made that bomb that hit the brits, thought I would just mention that. it was an accident.