The first flak jackets were heavy, bulky and did not stop crap from hurting you.
Today, body armor is an essential.
The difference is improvement driven by reports from the battlefield.

Today, the Land Warrior program is wrapping up it's first battlefield deployment. As always, there was stuff that can be made better. Improvements are being done to make that happen and the Land Warrior program is doing this faster than most.

The biggest gripe seems to be the weight. I don't have the tech spec for the system but I will bet 2/3 of that weight is battery power. That is a problem EVERY gadget deployed to the battlefield brings with it and it is a problem being addressed at levels much higher than Land Warrior.

With the continuing reduction in battery weight, all those "useless" electronic gizmos like radio comms, GPS, and NVG will be that much easier to carry. In the final analysis, Land Warrior is the synthesis of all that and more into an integrated tool. If all you want is a GPS, don't take Land Warrior. But if you need a radio, a GPS and your NVG; Land Warrior starts to be a reasonable option instead, especially since it brings all those tools into an easier to use format.

As for the side of bacon comment, I wish I could figure out where all that bacon goes. It never seems to show up in the projects I'm working on. I know Land Warrior and other "tech to the battlefield" projects like it have been running on the backs of a lot of dedicated people who can make much more money designing consumer electronics but instead chose to take the paycut so they can give the warrior the best tools possible. The engineers for these projects definitely don't live like Bill Gates.

Just my $0.02.

At least they didn't send them 160,000 pairs of winter socks.

Here's a terrific web site for anyone who wants to actually see this system, and a behemoth it most certainly is. But it's capabilities are impressive.

If the troops themselves say it's a burden? Well then it likely IS.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4215725.html

I have to admit, I really don't know enough about the system to make an informed judgement, but I thought AGBrina made a valid observation. What is the potential for sensory overload in an environment where immediate situational awareness is a matter of life and death. I suspect such a system might be good if limmited to one designated squad member but I would be concerned if everyone is being distracted by a mountain of information flooding in.

The System sounds OK But what happens when a loded transformer blows up and sends out an electromagnetic pulse, and fries the system.

Anyone notice that the article said it depended on satellites? The PRC, has been practicing shooting our satellites down and when they do, Land Warrior becomes so much useless junk to be thrown off of your combat load. Let's see, the PRC has been building their military like mad, they've been spying on us, they hold twenty-five to twenty-seven percent of our national debt, they've gotten us to off shore our industries. Yeah, if the satellites are down, how effective will Land Warrior really be?
Seems someone is planning something and we are trying to rely on something that may or may not work. Hope they are still teaching map and compass and basic manuever under fire...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

The system has been in the developement phase for some time. I suggest that the current technology can shave at least 10 lbs from the system. Most likely the communications equipment canbe mounted in a custom vest that could go under the body armor. To make it more stream line, circuit segments canbe modular and mounted on a flexible PCB. The flexible PCBs canbe inserted into the vest, minimizing the weight of the head gear.

I still remember the "Future Weapons" where the LW system was touted as the best thing since sliced bread; well now the reviews from the field are coming back and they don't like it. Hmm.. will the Army scrap the LW concept or keep putting that extra weight on our troops on the ground; or will it keep weighing down those defense contractors with more money??

Once again I have ghosted this site for a bit and decided to throw my tuppence in.

Having just returned from a deployment in the past 18 months I must say the capabilities are great if the damn thing works. And it doesn't. And its heavy. Like the Stryker MGS glitches they need to be addressed BEFORE deployments not retro ed after. If we cannot move effectively and are constantly worried about another gizmo that may or may not work its a hinderence on us. There is no substitute in combat for situational awareness and decision making by a PLT or SQD LDR. As a QRF platoon SGT/Commander I often called in to higher on my Sincgars which I had the pleasure of being a very young CPL during it's field testing at FT Hood after Desert Storm. My battalion CO looked at me one day and said, "Take that thing out of the mount. Pile drive it into that mud puddle over there." Gleefully I dropped it out of the HUMMV into a puddle next to me, much to the horror and chagrin of the Techs standing there.

"NO! I said pile drive it into that mud hole over there!" I used my most enthusiastic respose to comply with that order.

"Now go get it, reassemble it as a manpack, call NCS and then give me a radio check."

I scrambled to do so and as I did he looked at the horrified techs and said, "For $15,000 a piece? CPL Mac here better be able to make it work!" It didn't and as the techs were babbling he calmly stated, "If you think that is excessive I think we shouldn't spend a dime on it until you understand what it can and cannot take in the hands of an infantryman in combat."

Seemed like a good way of thinking (shocked as I was that a COL would think that way) at the time. Shame more of the R&R folks that wear our uniform don't think so still. The point is that gizmos and gadgets need to to be 'Joe Proof' and if Joe says it isn't the right tool he should know.

Had a Blue Force Tracker in my HUMMVs for this last deployment and I finally had to tell a certain TOC rat that he would NOT receive every sitrep by BFT email that he would need to transcribe what he got off the radio. He was very unhappy to hear that and whined to the Battle CPT that I was not using it to it's fullest capacity to make his life easier. My response to the CPT was that often times I was OUTSIDE of my vehicle and AWAY from BFT and I was BUSY fighting the fight. My response to the NCO is not printable here except to say that he and I came to an old school NCO understanding of the difference between inside and outside the wire.

They should trim it way down. The only thing the troops interviewed said they used was the quick communications and the GPS that showed friendlies and objectives.

Thats what the system should have. GPS tags on the soldiers and a way for them to see where their guys are at. I always thought the rifle with the cam on it was just and expensive way of getting our boys killed.

They need to be moblie. Like the one NCO joked. Give the contract to apple let and let them take off with it.

God bless our men and women in the Armed Services!

quote:

Originally posted by SUNLINER81:
Anyone notice that the article said it depended on satellites? The PRC, has been practicing shooting our satellites down and when they do, Land Warrior becomes so much useless junk to be thrown off of your combat load. Let's see, the PRC has been building their military like mad, they've been spying on us, they hold twenty-five to twenty-seven percent of our national debt, they've gotten us to off shore our industries. Yeah, if the satellites are down, how effective will Land Warrior really be?
Seems someone is planning something and we are trying to rely on something that may or may not work. Hope they are still teaching map and compass and basic manuever under fire...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

Never mind the satellites; what happens if the computer itself crashes at the wrong time? Sometimes there can be too much reliance on hi-tech. Neh?

What the army needs is something simple and light weight. It needs to be simple so that the average soldier can use the system in the field under fire and so there is not too much training involved. It also needs to be light otherwise it will hamper the soldiers movement and become an unnecessary burden.

ARMY’S LAND WARRIOR SYSTEM NOT FUNDED IN FY-09 BASE BUDGET REQUEST - The Army’s Land Warrior program, for which service officials nixed funding in fiscal year 2008, was excluded from the Pentagon’s FY-09 base budget request but could be resurrected in this year’s supplemental appropriations request, according to top budget and program officials.
“There is still a fairly strong desire to give soldiers, at the lowest level, more situational awareness than they currently have,” Army budget chief Lt. Gen. David Melcher told reporters at the Pentagon last week.
However, since the system is being requested by a unit via an operational needs statement, it would most likely be placed in the supplemental budget request.
“We would treat that as an ONS from theater and work it in the supplemental,” Maj. Gen. Edgar Stanton, director of Army budget, said at the same briefing.
Late last summer, the 5th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division -- a Stryker brigade -- issued an operational needs statement for Land Warrior’s capability to fill a gap between mounted elements with Blue Force tracking equipment and dismounted soldier teams that would otherwise rely on voice communications to gain situational awareness and battle command information (Inside the Army, Oct. 15, 2007, p1). (Source: Inside the Army)

quote:

Originally posted by 15231395:
What the army needs is something simple and light weight. It needs to be simple so that the average soldier can use the system in the field under fire and so there is not too much training involved. It also needs to be light otherwise it will hamper the soldiers movement and become an unnecessary burden.

The other point to consider is attention detractors. The phrase, To Much Information, can cause reductions in response time, especially if their is not enough training time.

quote:

Originally posted by Anchor99:
The System sounds OK But what happens when a loded transformer blows up and sends out an electromagnetic pulse, and fries the system.

Take off the battery back/cpu unit, move the helmet mounted hud('eye piece' whatever, if its inactive i heard its like looking at a television while its 'off'), and pick up your rifle it should be just fine, emp screws electronics not people(I havent heard it have any affect on humans but i could be wrong)
now that you mention it, EMP shielding is something that the Land Warrior people should look into

I have seen the land warrior system go from 27 to 17 pounds over the last 20 years, I was a member of the OPFOR at NTC from 90 to 96 and fought against several versions of it, while it does have some very useful features, the weight is still a big factor, threerings list is right on point, as a platoon Sergent in Iraq right now, walking Baghdad everyday I can tell you from late April till mid October 17 pounds is a very big deal. By the way that list he put up is about 55 pounds. and thats for a rifle man my SAW gunners and my guy with the 240 can add about 7 to 15 more pounds to that. There is better technology out there but the Army is very bad at saying " ok this sucks and we need to dump it" after spending Billions in R&D. know one wants to be the project manager of a canceled project, doesn't look good on an OER.
And just so Land warrior doesn't feel like an orphan her are some oldies but goodies
the SGT YORK
the Comanche
the Armored Gun System
the first 6 attempts at the Bradly
and about another 100 Billion in lost projects that were supposed to make the soldier better or more lethal, Re member the best computer a soldier has is the one already under his brain bucket.

Several things confuse me....a soldier gets captured or killed, the system falls in enemy hands, then what? Situational awareness...why cant the military come up with sensors that relay a troop's position on the battlefield and relay that to essential battlefield commanders? Why does every single person have to be integrated. in a specific battlespace? Combat is confusing enough and if I am concerning myself with other than the enemy to my 9,12,3, then I have a serious problem. I like the vehicles knowing which vehicle is where, lessens the chance of friendly fire. Reliance on satellites...this is getting way out of control. If the Chinese can hack into our network (they've done it before), then whats to say that if were to ever engage them, they wont employ the hacking technique to get a better envisionment of who is where on the battlefield. Time for technology to take a backseat to whats pratical.

quote:

Originally posted by blackflagg509:
I still remember the "Future Weapons" where the LW system was touted as the best thing since sliced bread; well now the reviews from the field are coming back and they don't like it. Hmm.. will the Army scrap the LW concept or keep putting that extra weight on our troops on the ground; or will it keep weighing down those defense contractors with more money??

The LW system was the "wave of the future" a decade before Future Weapons covered it.

The weight issue aside, I still question the necessity of the system. I don't know all that much about it. One of the big things is the "shoot around corners" bit. I'm sure there are some situation where this would be helpful, but how often is a soldier going to be in a position like that? Personally, if I could have had the choice between a gun that could shoot around corners and a lighter set of body armor, I'd probably choose the latter.

"The other point to consider is attention detractors. The phrase, To Much Information, can cause reductions in response time, especially if their is not enough training time."

We had some high speed new electronics in Iraq that fit this bill. I don't remember the name, but it was basically a palm pilot system that you could make phone calls with, chat with, and hook a video camera to. Now what exactly does a soldier need that for? The answer is; a soldier dosen't. All that system did was make it easier for the COC to harrass/keep tabs on us.

Break through in plastic semi conductors and making cpu's out of things other than silicon will assist things in the weight department as well as heat.
However, since I got out of the armed services I've done plenty of work with UPS which features a portable GPS unit that tracks out my routes and packages etc.

I don't know why the thing doesn't come with more modular capability.
Perhapses in the future it will be able to read bar codes/rfid/and finger prints (more weight I know) however, control and tracking of people seems to be an essential thing.
I remember training at Ft.Gordon and thinking about how much waste the sat com world goes through. Millstar not using most of it's UHF bandwidth and EHF constantly dropping due to interference in that part of the spectrum from water. The smart T /scamp/ were all fore runners to the linking with the satellites and there were numerous flops with trying to use COT como equipment attached to a hummer that wasn't quite durable enough. As I recall a large amount of parts were used picked up at Fry's in CA where I live.So I wonder how secure those open pins on those IC's could be, however, it might be a good thing to build more expansion and modularity into the system.

I know I would have at least like to have had the heads up display to read TO TM without having to take my eye's off of my meters and signal injectors etc. So even if it doesn't turn into a Warrior system for the army I personally feel that it would help logistic tracking and possibly intensive maintenance tasks with the camera and HUD features . (Palm pilot and CCD camera go figure?
Just throwing ideas around about the system.

These young people are used to this now the grew up playing first person shooter games where all this info use is second nature to them, you teach them a couple of years to be solders they learned fifteen years to be gamers, I know it is not a game and there is no reset but they have an ingrained skill-set the land warrior system is trying to utilize that and it would be great if first generation equipment was as good as fifth generation but you have to start somewhere. Also if it was as small as a credit card, as tough as granite, and so easy to use that liberals couldn’t mess it up someone would still complain.
God bless and protect all our people in harms way where ever they are.
Pro Deo et Patria

"If you load a mud foot down with a lot of gadgets that he has to watch, somebody a lot more simply equipped- say with a stone ax- will sneak up and bash his head in while he is trying to read a vernier." RAH

A battalion commander doesn't
't need to know where every single Soldier is located. My last deployment to Iraq we had Bn Cdrs telling individual tanks where to position themselves. What's the point of even having Company Commanders and Platoon and Squad leaders? He was a micromanaging moron and things like this will just make the urge to meddle worse.

Even today a BC needs to know where is companies are, CCs need to know where platoons are, and PLs need to know where squads are. SQUAD leaders need to know where the individual troops are.