I guess it is the Poles turn to deal with their decision for sending troops into an area that is just another asylum. I'll never defend the wanton killing of innocents but when a military is unleashed it will eventually do things that go beyond the pale of normalcy...just the nature of the beast.
Never worked with the Poles myself, but talked to some folks who had. Can't say I liked what I heard. While I was at Camp Victory one MP told me that all of the female soldiers in his unit had taken to posting gaurds on their sleeping areas because the Polish soldiers would get drunk and try to get in bed with/molest them.
UNLESS YOU WERE THERE YOU SHOULD YOU SHOULD NOT BE JUDGING THOSE WHO WERE. IN THE HEAT OF BATTLE, SEEING YOUR FRIENDS LAYING DEAD WITH ARMS AND LEGS BLOWN OFF A LOT OF VERY BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN AND NOT ALL ARE WAR CRIMES.
Fellows, try to stay objective here, we simply do not know what happened and probably never will. This is one of the ugliest side of war and some things are better left unsaid.
crzymdc, what you said is a classic hearsay and generalization, it is not wise to use it in the intelligent discussion.
The article said "...and why the orders were followed..." are you kidding me? Well, maybe because this was a military unit and following orders falls into the job description.
Erichs, and you know everything about it huh? Again do not generalize it makes you sound silly...what's next? All Italians are in mafia and all Germans are Nazis? C'mon guys, you know better than that.
As an American, I try to take things in strides, do I like all of it what happened there, hell NO! If I'm ordered to do things, do I follow orders, hell Yeah ! Because that's my job!
It is the degree of awarness you execute the orders, if one knows 100% the order is a BS, the order has to be executed because it's one's job, but the target can be missed "for some reasons"...
If you take a special interest in BS order and you use it as an excuse that's in my opinion is a wrong thing to do.
I agree with saw424-as has been said many times before in history-"War is Hell". What bothers me most is the Polish civilians that now are piping in as if they have had any experience with War and the newspapers in Poland that are notoriously anti-military - almost as if they are schills for the old Communist regime that they seem to so want back. Polands military is a very proud unit and getting more elite(all their services) everyday. What happened on that particular day is unfortunate but in no way should it affect the alliance that they have with America-our military. We're still fighting a common enemy. The "new" Pole in Poland should understand that bad things happen in war but that the price of true Freedom sometimes is paid with unfortunate tragedies.
If you can't win on the battle field you use the court of public opinion. The same tactic they've used against the coalition in Iraq. "They" just happens to be the opposition. The war crime was committed when someone attacked the Polish and American soldiers. If civilians think they are immuned in a country that's seen nothing but war for far too long they need a reality check. The Taliban would wipe out complete villages. If it wasn't for a couple of hearty media types no one would have known. Now you have the press covering every event having to manufacturer key words to attract their editors and readers. Without, no one would have read or committed on this subject.
Originally posted by uh34d: I guess it is the Poles turn to deal with their decision for sending troops into an area that is just another asylum. I'll never defend the wanton killing of innocents but when a military is unleashed it will eventually do things that go beyond the pale of normalcy...just the nature of the beast.
S/F Gordon
Link, since this is ITN...
And so happy You've convicted them before an investigation is even concluded. Get the Idea from Jack "Cold Blooded Murder" Murtha did you?
Originally posted by bkln: crzymdc, what you said is a classic hearsay and generalization, it is not wise to use it in the intelligent discussion.
While I wasn't in the unit where these things occured, I also do not doubt the word of the senior NCO who told me of them. It might not stand up in court, but then, we're not in court. As to the events in the article, it does state that the investigation had found 'no exchange of fire,' that no Taliban were in the village, and that it was the reenforcements that fired on the village. By the time your back up arrives, you know if it was an IED or a direct fire attack. I'm not saying these men are guilty, but the events as presented are not favorable.
Who are they saying told them "That village needs to be f**ked up"? Guess who?
If you can't send decent men who are disciplined and obey orders into a war who are you going to send? The kind of guys who were "war criminals" in an earlier go-round.
History boys, repeating itself.
I think the Poles are doing it right. Play by the rules or stay out of the game.
Originally posted by 9582335: Has any member of the Taliban ever been tried for a War Crime, just asking.
I have to ask the same question. Here is where my ignorance comes in. Why are we prosecuting our soldiers and Marines for following orders and training such as Hadifa or Sniper teams? My knowledge is 7 yrs out of date on military doctrine.
Has the level of command become so convoluted that soldiers don't understand that they may have moral grounds for disobeying? From what I gathered in the article, at least one Polish soldier refused to partake in this senseless act. Maybe I'm reaching here, but I believe that they would have known if they were under fire or not and in that case, there was no necessity to engage a harmless village. I understand that the ROE are not always clearly defined, but that does not allow for free license to kill on suspicion alone. The Poles are right to be angry about what happened!
Originally posted by 9582335: Has any member of the Taliban ever been tried for a War Crime, just asking.
Guantanamo and other prisons are full of them. Some charged with all sorts of crimes. Proving guilt, or finding an impartial court to try them seems difficult.
They're have the same problem as the Nuremburg trials had, getting at the 'war crimes' while ignoring what some 'allies' were just as guilty of doing.
Ah yes, blame the media. They are the source of all the ills within and without America.
Thank goodness our Founding Fathers were intelligent enough and cognizant of what a free press means to a democracy. The media didn't create the events, those responsible for whatever is reported did.
Perhaps had we not gone into Iraq we wouldn't see Pakistan devolving into chaos. We wouldn't see Turkey violating a soverign nations borders with our help. A nation (Iraq) we are responsible for defending against outside aggession. Iraq, another nation on the brink of chaos. Yea, the Press is responsible for all of the ills and problems created in the world by others. Thank goodness the Press has a Constitutional right to exist. The one and only public entity named in the Constitution and given specific safeguards against anyone wishing to repress its existance. Perhaps the old Tass or Pravda or maybe the old Deutcher Beo Bacter would be more to your liking?
S/F Gordon _______________________________________________ Posted Fri 28 December 2007 06:43 AM If you can't win on the battle field you use the court of public opinion. The same tactic they've used against the coalition in Iraq. "They" just happens to be the opposition. The war crime was committed when someone attacked the Polish and American soldiers. If civilians think they are immuned in a country that's seen nothing but war for far too long they need a reality check. The Taliban would wipe out complete villages. If it wasn't for a couple of hearty media types no one would have known. Now you have the press covering every event having to manufacturer key words to attract their editors and readers. Without, no one would have read or committed on this subject.
Originally posted by saw424: UNLESS YOU WERE THERE YOU SHOULD YOU SHOULD NOT BE JUDGING THOSE WHO WERE. IN THE HEAT OF BATTLE, SEEING YOUR FRIENDS LAYING DEAD WITH ARMS AND LEGS BLOWN OFF A LOT OF VERY BAD THINGS CAN HAPPEN AND NOT ALL ARE WAR CRIMES.
Amen, brother. War is war! Bad things happen. Arm-chair warriors, in the safety of their livingroom and six-pack, find it very easy to leap to conclusions, as suggested by the media (we know they are neutral). How many times have we seen our own troops "hung" by the media and public opinion, only later to find out (when all the facts are revealed) that they were innocent. Judge not, lest ye be judged, too!
I don't think they have classified them as warriors so they Can't charge them with war crimes. but they're not zactly civillian so we can't charge them w/ terrorism either. Last I heard we're gonna give em their own reality shows on cable. Dancin' With the Omars, A-stan's Got Talent.....
quote:
Originally posted by 9582335: Has any member of the Taliban ever been tried for a War Crime, just asking.
