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Posted
A very interesting idea...if the EU members can overcome their reluctance to establish such a regional military due to fear of subordinating their national defense interests to those of a region.

I've heard of the EU Rapid Reaction Force; I don't think that this is the same thing.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3323736,00.html

quote:
Deutsche Welle 08.05.2008

Germany's foreign minister has called on the EU to step up efforts to create a common defense force, a European army. In today's world, many believe, an EU military force can tackle problems national armies cannot.

While it was no new call to arms when Frank-Walter Steinmeier, at a Monday, May 6, security conference of his Social Democratic Party (SPD), urged accelerating efforts to integrate Europe's armed forces, it does appear that if the new EU reform treaty is ratified by all 27 members, individual states will be freer to take concrete steps toward closer cooperation in security policy.

That, in turn, could prove to be first steps toward an eventual European army, even though uniforms with only the EU flag on the shoulder are likely still decades away.

The SPD laid out its arguments for a common armed force and its suggestions toward moving its military in the same direction that Europe did with its currency. Money is one principle reason for the move, proponents of a joint fighting force say, adding that running 27 different militaries with 27 different sets of equipment represents an enormous waste of resources.

According to the European Defense Agency (EDA), created in 2004 to promote European defense capabilities, the 27 members of the European Union spent 201 billion euros ($308 billion) on defense in 2007, second only to the 491 billion euros spent by the United States. However, the cumulative effect of these expenditures is lessened because of the duplication of capacities in individual national militaries.

At the same time, the modern security threats are often beyond the capabilities of national militaries.

"International terrorism, the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and regional conflicts outside our borders are all dangers that we can only tackle together," said Peter Struck, the SPD parliamentary group leader and a former defense minister.


According to Hennign Riecke, head of the European foreign and security policy at the German Council on Foreign Relations, fighting terrorism requires cooperation since networks can exist with state sponsors, and tackling proliferation with an actor such as Iran requires political weight.

"There cannot be any effective national security policy any longer," he said. "Whatever you do, it must be done in cooperation."

Concrete steps

At the security meeting, Steinmeier said he had discussed concrete matters related to closer military cooperation with his French counterpart, Bernard Kouchner. Germany sees France as a key partner in this process. The two countries have had a common German-French brigade since the early 1990s.

France will take over the EU's rotating presidency in the middle of this year, and has announced that it wants to make EU security policy a focus of its six months at the helm.

The SPD laid out its ideas for the path toward a combined military, calling for an EU air transport command, a "real" ministerial defense council and the creation of an EU military academy.

The EU reform treaty appears to be heading in this direction when it specifies that member states will cooperate to "take concrete measures to enhance the availability, interoperability, flexibility and deployability of their forces."

Broad support

The European army has a good deal of support among German and European leaders.

"Within the EU itself, we will have to move closer to establishing a common European army," German Chancellor Angela Merkel told Germany's mass-market Bild newspaper last year.

Those thoughts have been echoed by French President Nicolas Sarkozy and other high-ranking EU leaders and officials.

But, while an EU army might be the ultimate goal, to many Europeans, the thought of giving up one's national army is unsettling.

Keep it low-key

According to Riecke, if the issue of a joint military is framed as a clear-cut project with a European command that is outside state sovereignty at some date, there is good amount of resistance to the idea.

However, if it is labeled as a process of slow military integration, with new institutions created that lead to an organic growth toward a common army, there are fewer furrowed brows.

Brussels and big EU states understand this and have not made a great deal of noise about the issue, although they've been working quietly to make it happen. For one, they want to wait until the EU reform treaty is fully ratified by all member states, since putting out a message of a super-army run by faceless Brussels bureaucrats could put the treaty itself in danger.

Struck, in arguing for more movement toward a common military, pointed out that for years, many thought the common currency, the euro, was a pipe dream. There were also years of discussions and a high degree of skepticism surrounding around the project. He said today, the euro has proved a success and a common army could share a similar story.

But it won't be quick in coming. Asked about the time frame for such a Euro Army, security analyst Riecke said: "Oh, come back and ask me in about 10 years."
 
Posts: 700 | Registered: Tue 18 October 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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??

Ever hear of the EUROCORPS?

http://www.eurocorps.org/
 
Posts: 6808 | Registered: Sat 31 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by mcgreer:
??

Ever hear of the EUROCORPS?

http://www.eurocorps.org/


Looks like the U.S. is left out and what happens to NATO?
Respectfully, SUNLINER81
 
Posts: 12430 | Registered: Thu 09 March 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Under the current circumstances, if the US pulled out of NATO, it would probably beef up its own force if they found a need to do so.

The major problem is that groups that operate on consensus, such as the UN, NATO, etc., take a long time to come to agreement on how to approach a situation. For openers, all the ambassadors of sovereign states have to go back to their respective parliaments with the proposals and then wait for decisions to be made.

Historically, the US has provided the buffer until those groups get their acts together and can take over. If we no longer do that, what will happen?

Now, there are those who neither understand nor respect the importance and necessity of American leadership - and that goes in our own country as well.

I could go on and on about this - but the bottom line is that, if the US pulls out of NATO, it would survive, but it would operate differently and would probably be more inward-looking.
 
Posts: 6808 | Registered: Sat 31 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Going to replace the EUROCORPS already?
 
Posts: 574 | Registered: Fri 22 February 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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It's a Euro-federalists wet dream and thus popular amongst the political classes of Germany, France and Benelux. Eastern Europe is less keen though and to advocate such a thing would be political suicide in the UK and probably Ireland as well.
 
Posts: 2599 | Registered: Sat 14 February 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Alright! they'll definitely take the gold for 'Synchronised Pacifism' in Beijing!!!!
 
Posts: 3256 | Registered: Thu 24 January 2008Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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It looks like this would eventually resemble the Warsaw Pact. If the EU decides to go to war, and there are countries within the EU that don't agree, and they want to keep the troops home that are citizens of their country, then what? Will the EU military invade those countries to make those troops go?
 
Posts: 1207 | Registered: Sun 02 July 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
"Bowlers have BIG balls!"


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There's only one U. S. Marine Corps...never subserviant to any blue-helmet whackos.


"The World's Finest"
 
Posts: 12433 | Registered: Wed 07 March 2001Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Yeah? Well, I knew several Marines who donned the soft blue hat. And you were around when LtCol Rich Higgins was captured and hanged by Hizbul'lah - he was connected to the UN at the time.

And Scott Ritter worked for UNSCOM.
 
Posts: 6808 | Registered: Sat 31 December 2005Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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You guys do know that the UN and EU isnt the same thing I hope?
 
Posts: 2306 | Registered: Wed 09 June 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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I have to agree with mcgreer, trying to reach a consensus on anything will be their weak point, rendering them ineffective.
 
Posts: 4394 | Registered: Wed 30 June 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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It'll never happen. I've worked with the French, Germans, Swedes, Danes, Brits, Greeks, Italians, Poles, Russians, and Norwegians. There is so much cultural rivalry and prejudice between them. They'll work together if they have to, but I truly don't see them agreeing to work as a unified command irrespective of their home nations. Or, to put it another way, they might try to put one together in name, but it will fall apart with all the various separate national interests that will take place.

On a side note, I was truly surprised at the extent of the prejudice that exists at the troop level. I had to deal with a situation involving billeting French and British commandos in the same barracks. Each side voiced strong objections and simply refused. But I had no other way to billet each other than together. After lots of negotiating, they finally agreed, and, in true European custom (and in direct violation of General Order Number One), we sealed the deal by drowning ourselves in alcohol. Great party, Brits and French drinking together side by side, singing songs, tearing off patches and exchanging them, telling lies and war stories. The next morning they went back to "normal" and told each other to f.ck off. I saw the same with the other national armies. The Danes and Swedes were about the only ones who could genuinely work well with others. Greeks and Italians were ready to throw down any time they remotely felt offended or insulted.

Nah, this is just someone's pipe dream. It's already tricky enough to keep 'em together under the NATO banner; I just don't see a truly unified EU military ever working.
 
Posts: 1510 | Registered: Sat 22 May 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Toome, the thing to remember about the French and the British is that they've scrapped so much that it would be simply inconceivable for them to admit they don't actually hate each other quite as much as they pretend. Thus when they've got an excuse - alcohol mainly - they can be quite civil, but as soon as they sober up they feel embarrassed and have to make up for it.

Southern Europeans hold grudges like nobody's business and it seems to be in inverse proportion to their military effectiveness.
 
Posts: 2599 | Registered: Sat 14 February 2004Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
French


This will happen within 10 years it has been planed for a long time. The Germans will let the French think they are in charge or at least full partners, after it is a fact the Germans will be in charge and they will have won WW2. They the Germans will dominate the EU totaly.
 
Posts: 1629 | Registered: Mon 16 January 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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Is this for real? I guess the Brits, Dutch and a cameo by France will defend W. Europe. Wat a joke. Its not even funny, wat can you say?
 
Posts: 1130 | Registered: Fri 01 December 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by RHYNO506:
Is this for real? I guess the Brits, Dutch and a cameo by France will defend W. Europe. Wat a joke. Its not even funny, wat can you say?



What can I say?

That when the Russians come across the border and take everything all the way to Normandy, I will refuse, ABSOLUTELY REFUSE, to get in to one of those scary azzed landing craft!

If you can't get me into Europe by CHopper, I aint going! Wink
 
Posts: 275 | Registered: Wed 12 April 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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If ur counting on the French forget it. Take a look at the link in Longwarjournal.com and see for urself. Most of thier Le Clerc tanks are not running, thier naval ops have been scaled back...it paints a bleak picture. Still waiting for those 1,000 troops to deploy to a-stan. There will never be a unified EU military. Isn't that NATO's job? Germany spends 1.5% of thier GDP on defense...oh well.. Confused
 
Posts: 1130 | Registered: Fri 01 December 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 6837602:
quote:
French


This will happen within 10 years it has been planed for a long time. The Germans will let the French think they are in charge or at least full partners, after it is a fact the Germans will be in charge and they will have won WW2. They the Germans will dominate the EU totaly.
Really? And thats a crock of shat too. Thier contribution against Serbia was a couple of AWACS techs. They can't even take care of thier back yard. Headline DerSpiegel: KSK-No License to Kill? Bang up job there. Wat a joke..
 
Posts: 1130 | Registered: Fri 01 December 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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If I was British I would say NO. The UK is getting ready to build 2 new aircraft carriers that can carry 40 JSF's and 20 Chinooks. Why get entangled with a bunch that has no guts for a fight.
 
Posts: 1130 | Registered: Fri 01 December 2006Reply With QuoteEdit or Delete MessageReport This Post
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