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Originally posted by godawgz:

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Originally posted by bwf27:
Cheese Louise! Not that whole Rule-Of-Law thing again?

Exactly the rule of law thing. Think how chaotic the world is with 200 odd countries blundering about.. Imagine the chaos if it were 6 billion people. there has to be a clear delineation between nations of people and people who have no allegiance to anything.

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Originally posted by MarineAuntie:

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

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Originally posted by MarineAuntie:

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Originally posted by Raunchy:
I don't understand all the hoopla about waterboarding when we have a much more barbaric act of torture going on. When is somebody going to demand a stop to placing women's panties on prisoners heads? It's degrading, dehumanizing and surely a more inhuman form of torture has never been devised. Why even during the Inqusition such barbarism was unthought of. It's time this countries liberals got their priorities straight. I say "Down with women's panties!!!!"

Oh yes, the old "it was just women's panties" defense. Minimize it, marginalize it, and make it go away. Except that ISN'T all it was. It was a pattern of reducing people to nudity, to mocking and humiliating them, forcing them to assume sexual positions and engage in sexual acts. It was very much a perversion of sexuality.
Hummm, sounds much like your normal Frat party on campus. The only thing missing was the decapitations, oh wait, that was done by these extremely sensitive prisoner types. Dimwit frat boys volunteer to be temporarily humiliated for the reward of being accepted into a society upon which they can base their networking and seek support for the rest of their lives. They do it because they understand it is temporary and will result in a positive good.
As a matter of fact, as someone who has spent years defending sexual offenders, representing the interests of sexually abused children, and dealing with the criminal cases of people who take drugs and drink in order to deal with the sexual abuse and trauma they have experienced in their lives I ask why we have no outrage at the criminal perverse sexual abuse committed against these detainees. You think sexual battery and sexual humiliation are funny?
Ma'am, these poor put upon prisoners are not sexually traumatised children. These are battle hardened killers who, given the chance, would do all those things to you just before decapitating you. Please stop bleeding all over the place. And where's your evidence for that? The military admitted that a lot of the prisoners had been picked up in sweeps. Most were just in the wrong place at the wrong time, which is why they never had any charges brought against them. The ones who were truly found on the battlefield acting as merciless killers were usually sent elsewhere, and the allegedly worst of the worst were sent to Gitmo. Most of the detainees in Abu Ghraib had little or no evidence against them. As for adults not being traumatized by sexual abuse, tell me, how much experience do you have working with people who've been through something like a rape or a sexual attack? How many sexual predators have you talked to? I've met dozens of the sexually abused, the sexually traumatized, and the sexually predatious in my career. You think it's impossible that a man would find sexual humiliation cripplingly traumatic? If you had been stripped naked and forced into sexual positions and ridiculed and humiliated do you seriously think it would not have affected your mind? It's torture, plain and simple, and it's a great evil. Wait until some adult family member of yours suffers a sexual trauma and then get back to me about how you still think it's no big deal.

The Abu Ghraib detainees, many of whom had been picked up in roundups and not arrested or found on battlefields, many of whom were innocent of any wrongdoing, must have been horribly traumatized If panties on the head is all it takes to traumatize these people then maybe we should stop throwing bullets at them and make a deal with Victoria's Secret for bulk purchases. Of course, that's the problem. It WASN'T just panties on the head. It was a pattern of multiple humiliating practices aimed at stripping away the last vestiges of human dignity from these people. It was for the stated purpose of crushing their spirits.
[COLOR:RED]If it produces information that might save other American lives, well............ How easily do you think that people who've been so demeaned can set it aside? What worries me is how much hatred for us some of those guys must harbor
I surely believe events such as 9/11 indicate that hatred already was there. . If they weren't against us when they went in, I'll bet a lot of them were certainly against us when they came out. Tell me, how would you react if you'd been imprisoned and deliberately abused, humiliated, demeaned, and degraded? Would you look kindly on your captors upon your release?
I'd count myself fortunate that I still had my head. Would you tell your family they weren't such bad people and maybe they deserved a little credit, or would you nurse an abiding hatred and desire for revenge?
It's part of the "Fortunes of War". Myself? Why If I were able I'd find a weapon and get back in the fray (which of course is how I got captured in the first place). Lest we forget, these are NOT, I repeat NOT innocent women or children being preyed on by sexual predators, these are war fighters who know of the possibility of being captured. They give no quarter and should expect no quarter. Not only is degradation of others an evil in itself, it is a plainly stupid policy.[/color]
as are all victims of rape and sexual abuse. There's nothing to laugh about here and nothing to take pride in. We should hang our heads in shame that this occurred under the color of our military authority.

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Originally posted by GRR2841:
the great? he didnt last 12 years. ghenghis did just about as well, swept over a continent, but things fell apart.

even today, Christians go on about being fed to lions, do you think that maybe that form of torture contributed to the romans downfall? boy did the romans ever fall hard too, dark ages? and torture really helped speed europe out of that one :P

moghuls? the swiss of asia? no one conquered them on account of no one wanting their desolate mountain range.

or were you referencing the mughal? torture didnt seem to help them either.

carrots and sticks aside, torture consistently gives people a reason to rebel and consistently destroys nations.


now whats all this about muslims? it doesnt matter what religion people are, hell even atheist commies stand up and defend their country.

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Originally posted by SUNLINER81:
The United States stood as a shining beacon on the hill. All sought to come to it and help it grow and enrich it's self. But when they got there, all they found left, was a crumbling and decayed ruin.
Seems they all died from internal rot, a slow and pitiful death of corruption, hatred and a desire to treat anyone other than themselves not by the principles that they espoused, but by hatred and torture and maltreatment, the principles their founders had warned them against, had even written it in their own sacred Constitution. Oh weep, for that once great shining city, on the hill...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

Yes ma'am but at least they walked away with their heads still attached to their bodies. Did we humiliate some people? oh fer shame. You're worried about them hating us? Haven't you got your priorities a little out of kilter? Do you for one minute think their actions against us are done out of love? Animals such as many of these flew airplanes into two buildings full of innocent Americans. They have committed unspeakable atrocities against men, women and children, all for the sake of some phoney baloney belief that everyone but them is an infidel and deserving of death. They have killed Americans long before 9/11. Does the USS Cole ring a bell? Most of these poor put upon souls were captured on the battlefield with weapons. Weapons used to kill American Marines and Soldiers. They plant bombs and boobytrap innocents. Ma'am, I don't give a fat rat's a** about them, as far as I'm concerned many of them are no better then rabid dogs. If you want to bleed all over the place then why don't you go bleed for the Americans who have been tortured and beheaded. Bleeding heart attitudes make me sick!!!!

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Originally posted by GRR2841:

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

Yes ma'am but at least they walked away with their heads still attached to their bodies. Did we humiliate some people? oh fer shame. You're worried about them hating us? Haven't you got your priorities a little out of kilter? Do you for one minute think their actions against us are done out of love? Animals such as many of these flew airplanes into two buildings full of innocent Americans. They have committed unspeakable atrocities against men, women and children, all for the sake of some phoney baloney belief that everyone but them is an infidel and deserving of death. They have killed Americans long before 9/11. Does the USS Cole ring a bell? Most of these poor put upon souls were captured on the battlefield with weapons. Weapons used to kill American Marines and Soldiers. They plant bombs and boobytrap innocents. Ma'am, I don't give a fat rat's a** about them, as far as I'm concerned many of them are no better then rabid dogs. If you want to bleed all over the place then why don't you go bleed for the Americans who have been tortured and beheaded. Bleeding heart attitudes make me sick!!!!

they? they who? what do you think happens when you suicide bomb a crowd, building or boat? you die shithead. what? if you kill enough rabdom brown people we get those that we lost back? who's clueless? ***

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

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Originally posted by SUNLINER81:
The United States stood as a shining beacon on the hill. All sought to come to it and help it grow and enrich it's self. But when they got there, all they found left, was a crumbling and decayed ruin.
Seems they all died from internal rot, a slow and pitiful death of corruption, hatred and a desire to treat anyone other than themselves not by the principles that they espoused, but by hatred and torture and maltreatment, the principles their founders had warned them against, had even written it in their own sacred Constitution. Oh weep, for that once great shining city, on the hill...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

Better still, weep for the once great nation that lost it's desire to protect itself. That when the enemy knocked on the gate, the inhabitants, unwilling to recognize evil said "enter and help yourselves to our culture, our freedom and our sacred honor. For defending ourselves might offend and feelings might be hurt". Yes, weep for what might have been had not the watchman slept.

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Originally posted by SUNLINER81:

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

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Originally posted by SUNLINER81:
The United States stood as a shining beacon on the hill. All sought to come to it and help it grow and enrich it's self. But when they got there, all they found left, was a crumbling and decayed ruin.
Seems they all died from internal rot, a slow and pitiful death of corruption, hatred and a desire to treat anyone other than themselves not by the principles that they espoused, but by hatred and torture and maltreatment, the principles their founders had warned them against, had even written it in their own sacred Constitution. Oh weep, for that once great shining city, on the hill...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

Better still, weep for the once great nation that lost it's desire to protect itself. That when the enemy knocked on the gate, the inhabitants, unwilling to recognize evil said "enter and help yourselves to our culture, our freedom and our sacred honor. For defending ourselves might offend and feelings might be hurt". Yes, weep for what might have been had not the watchman slept.

OR better yet, weep for the once great city that went to the mall while her best and brightest went to war. Then weep for that once great city, when her leaders sold the best and the brightest out, by forgetting the principles that they went to war for. Things like people knocking at their doors at night and starting warantless searches, or not building a border fence, giving amnesty to illegal aliens, subjigating our national laws and will of our people to an international government, of the profiteers, by the profiteers, for the profiteers. Then there is of course the national debt, held by the enemies of that once great land, the selling off of our industrial base for the international buddies of our leadership, for a greater profit and the destruction of our blue collar and white collar middle class...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

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Originally posted by SUNLINER81:

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

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Originally posted by SUNLINER81:
The United States stood as a shining beacon on the hill. All sought to come to it and help it grow and enrich it's self. But when they got there, all they found left, was a crumbling and decayed ruin.
Seems they all died from internal rot, a slow and pitiful death of corruption, hatred and a desire to treat anyone other than themselves not by the principles that they espoused, but by hatred and torture and maltreatment, the principles their founders had warned them against, had even written it in their own sacred Constitution. Oh weep, for that once great shining city, on the hill...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

Better still, weep for the once great nation that lost it's desire to protect itself. That when the enemy knocked on the gate, the inhabitants, unwilling to recognize evil said "enter and help yourselves to our culture, our freedom and our sacred honor. For defending ourselves might offend and feelings might be hurt". Yes, weep for what might have been had not the watchman slept.

OR better yet, weep for the once great city that went to the mall while her best and brightest went to war. Then weep for that once great city, when her leaders sold the best and the brightest out, by forgetting the principles that they went to war for. Things like people knocking at their doors at night and starting warantless searches, or not building a border fence, giving amnesty to illegal aliens, subjigating our national laws and will of our people to an international government, of the profiteers, by the profiteers, for the profiteers. Then there is of course the national debt, held by the enemies of that once great land, the selling off of our industrial base for the international buddies of our leadership, for a greater profit and the destruction of our blue collar and white collar middle class...
Respectfully, SUNLINER81

You realize that you and I are on the same page?

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Originally posted by SinePariDonster:
RE: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,161672,00.html



May be illegal? May be? What utter rubbish!

Of course it's illegal! It's torture. It's illegal, immoral and absolutely contrary to every value this country is supposed to stand for.

The United States prosecuted Japanese soldiers as criminals after WWII for using this technique on POWs as a Class B War Crime - they were sentenced to 30 years hard labor as War Criminals. It is a War Crime and those who employ it are War Criminals.

No mulling over it or posturing or speculating will change that. It is torture. It is criminal. It is against the law. We are a nation of laws...not Imperial Decrees.

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Originally posted by godawgz:
So what? In 1898 we denounced the Spanish for the use of concentration camps in Cuba. Within four years we were using them in the Phillipines. And once again, I dwould no more extend legal protection to people who have shunned all vestiges of national and international law than I would extend insurance benefits to someone who never held a policy.

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Originally posted by pat_b50:
Why are we so concerned with the civil rights of a TERRORIST????? Let me see they BEHEAD Americans and prisoners and the Dems are worried about scaring them>

If this is the best way the Dems can see to spend time and money we are in for a tough election year!

You really don't understand do you? It's all about them losing their "Human" dignity and degrading them to the point of losing their will to live, taking them to the depts of human degradation where even their vary souls are in danger of being lost. This, my friend, is what happens when they are forced to don womens panties on their heads. What's the matter with you? Have you no conscience, no pity, no compassion? Praise the left for without them the rest of us would lose our way and become little more than human debris, pond scum floating on a sea of apathy.

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Originally posted by Raunchy:

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Originally posted by pat_b50:
Why are we so concerned with the civil rights of a TERRORIST????? Let me see they BEHEAD Americans and prisoners and the Dems are worried about scaring them>

If this is the best way the Dems can see to spend time and money we are in for a tough election year!

You really don't understand do you? It's all about them losing their "Human" dignity and degrading them to the point of losing their will to live, taking them to the depts of human degradation where even their vary souls are in danger of being lost. This, my friend, is what happens when they are forced to don womens panties on their heads. What's the matter with you? Have you no conscience, no pity, no compassion? Praise the left for without them the rest of us would lose our way and become little more than human debris, pond scum floating on a sea of apathy.

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Originally posted by godawgz:
Somebody rabbit punches me I'll break a 2x4 over his head. And people can think what they want about who's better than who.