I think the General is trying to warn everyone that there are distant smoke signals on the horizon that the future of the Green Beret is in question.

For all of you that think disbanding of the Green Beret is not a possibility, you better pull your head out of your a$$ and take a look at what has happened in the military in the past 20 years. Did you think the military would have coed basic training? Did you think there would be a "Don't ask, Don't tell policy"? Did you think they would close the number of bases that have been closed down in the last twenty years? Did you think that we would barely have enough soldiers to fight a brush war like the Iraq war? Yeah, no general wants to see his empire shrink, but do to political pressure, many have allowed the U.S. military to change from a roaring lion to a paper tiger.

If you don't want to see the demise of the Green Beret, then write letters to your congressman, the JCOS, the Secretary of the Army and the President. Just sitting here writing a post on military.com will not do squat to insure the future of the Green Beret.

As a proud former Marine I have every confidence that the Corps would be able to handle any task assigned to them given the time and investment to master the required skills. That being said, it would be absolutely asinine for Army brass to even think of disbanding a proven operational unit with such a long and distinguished history and farming out their responsibilities to the Marines. If anything there is a greater need for the Green Berets now than there ever has been and there is plenty of room for additional specialized units in all of the services without trying to replace or remake their capabilities. This kind of thinking started when they decided to give all soldiers a beret so they could feel special.

They've tried many years ago and where are they? I know for sure they're here to stay. Maybe they forgot the word of Isaiah, ...whom shall I send, and he said, send me. Keep it rollin "Quiet Professionals".

M123Driver you posted my thoughts to a T. As a former Marine and Vietnam vet I think it would be traggic to disband the U.S. Army Special Forces. Perhaps because of our own esprit de corps (which much of the army doesnt understand), I believe Marines appreciate "Green Berets" more than the Army. As driver said the lack of respect in the army for these fine soldiers was demonstrated by giving everyone a beret. If the army goes through with such a plan we will all pay for this. The qualities of pride, devotion to duty, and excellence symbolized by the green beret are not an abundant commodity. For this sentiment alone the future of Army Special Forces should be assured.

i have linked up with oda, berets and rangers in hot zones. Working with oda and berets was a good experience. I believe that the navy and marine corps are the tip of the spear when it comes to getting the mission accomplished. Your average ranger ranks a tad below the grunt marine. Marsoc has been introduced to socom and has set the bar.
When there is a sense that a recon marine is not so up to par, we send them to ranger school so that they can qualify and graduate so that we can continue to use them in our unit as trigger pullers. I think that oda and green berets are an asset to the special ops community and it would be a wast to go away with them. With that said you should just cut the army off completely and just keep the SF guys. We spend way to much money for the army to sit behind safe wall in hot zones with marines on watch, patrols and raids.

tuffgrunt 77 is on target. Remember the move to give everyone a beret? de-emphasizing its significance and allowing non-special forces to share in the romanticism of the beret; shrinking force size, base closures, etc,etc. and never underestimate the brass's desire to share in the "glory" like other poster's have mentioned. I remember after Operation Urgent Fury (Granada) we were processing ribbons for anyone who even mentioned the word Granada.

Just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean its not true. Here in Texas the Texas Rangers (lawmen not baseball team!) were emasculated by appointing unqualified personnel by then Gov. Anne Richards. A desk sergeant from a driver's license office for instance.

I remember back in my day when the A-10 warthog was being developed the Air Force very nearly gave it away to the Army because the go-fast Air Force Generals weren't interested in getting in the mud for close air support of ground troops. This was seriously considered even though CAS was supposed to be an integral air force task.

In the early 1990s the Air Force was reorganized, disbanding TAC, SAC, and MAC in an effort to "streamline" the service- read "shrinking the force". Remember they called it the "Peace Dividend" after the collapse of the Soviet Union. That "dividend" has brought us to a military designed for warfighting on one front only - and that means Iran has to behave and wait in line. That reality in turn shapes our current foreign policy to one of weakness vs. Reagan's Peace thru Strength philosophy.

I hope the Green Beret survive, but I think I will start writing letters rather than trust in leadership that conducted Base Realignment and Closure (BRAC)process in 2005 during an ongoing conflict.


Frankly,

........other than being astounded and feeling like we've been stabbed in the back yet again, you all say it infinitely better than I can. I just wanted to add that the voices here are not alone....somehow, someway the proverbial camel's back will break and actions will prevail over all the politically correct bullshit being forced down our throats for these past years and this frustration will come spilling out....unfortunately, I think it will be a very violent backlash!

General Guest makes an impressive case but leaves out a few things that actually support his point. Who led the troops that chased the Taliban out of Afghanistan in 2003? Answer: 180 Green Berets. The NY Times ran a photo early on in that action showing allegedly backwards Northern Alliance tribesmen riding horses into combat. The tone of the article was that they would be slaughtered. A week later, when the Taliban were being routed, Sec. Rumsfeld walks down the aisle of his DOD jet enthusiastically holding that same photo. "See the guys in the tan pants," Rumsfeld said. "Those are our Green Berets!"
SF is the only military unit that can go in deep and stay long. The Special Forces Operations Base (SFOB) is a unique operations center that contains all the command functions, all the S functions, as well as all the operations capabilities. The staff is small, the communications are immediate and the Commanders are right there 24/7. There is nothing like it. The Admirals who know nothing about SF think Marines and SEALS can do their job. Not so. They don't speak the languages. They don't have the maturity. They don't have the training. They don't have the SFOB. Marines, Rangers, SEALS and other direct action units are totally different from SF. Look at Afghanistan. Look at Vietnam prior to 1970. The A-Teams provided most of the Intel, they created MIKE forces, they tied up tens of thousands of VC and NVA forces and they never lost and never retreated from a battle until the conventional generals in Saigon ordered them out of the field. Today, those same SF soldiers are the only ones who maintain contact with their Indig personnel, bring them to the US and support them in their new land.
It takes a special man to be a Green Beret, and that man is totally dedicated to his Team, his Group and his country. General Guest is right on with his commentary and I hope everyone who reads this forum will contact their elected representatives to insist that the Army's most efficient, most decorated, and most capable units be revived and expanded, not crushed under the heel of an ignorant, oppressive bureaucracy.

As a twenty two year SOF veteran, and SF Warrant Officer, looking back I can say that making SOCOM a MACOM has, in retrospect, been problematic. US Army SOF is a resource intensive endeavor, and politicians take a dim view of US Army SOF's l o n g view of problem solving. Direct Action is NOT SOF's core line of business, Foreign Internal Defense is. The World and the SOF mission is changing, regionalized focused SF teams will adapt to mission parameters as their target areas change, missions will change, but the "big Army" attitude and over dependence on techno-tactical command and control are taking a bit toll on ODA's in the field. The days of the boots on the ground commander's observations being taken at face value have gone away, now, the arm chair SOF leadership wants a video feed before the GO! decision is made, back in Florida. The creation of SOCOM has been a blessing and a curse, it will be seen if the cure big Army meddling in SOF affairs is worse than the disease of big Army disdain. Those REALLY interested in the topic should read Susan Marquis's, "Unconventional Warfare, rebuilding US Special Operations Forces." Rover-27, 7th SF CW4, sneakin' and peekin'

Same old story, ticket punchers and ring knockers at their worst. Damn 50 years of deep learning and sterling mission performance, lets preserve brown shoe tradition. They know better because they know they can run a table exercise better than anyone! Combat is for the unschooled and uneducated in their narrow little minds. We always have and always will have an oversupply of elitist nitwits in the military. We fire the warriors in peace time because they don't fit the mold of the political ticket punchers. Retch, gag. Look what those folks have done for a once proud Air Force, a mere shadow of its original self. Chief

Well I think you SF types (yes Green Berets) need to take a step back and read history. I suggest starting with Max Boot's "Savage Wars of Peace", then pull out a copy of the "Small Wars Manual", check out who wrote it. Then check who advocated CAP platoons and FID/COIN/UW as the way to go in 1966 (hint: his son was a Commandant) and the person who opposed this course of action was Gen Westmoreland, guess who's point of view won out with President Johnson?
I find it very arrogant for GB's to think that they have cornered the market on UW or FID.
The Marine Corps recent history is an anomaly. Our history is replete with doing UW/COIN and FID, it just wasn't called that in those days.
Saying the Marine Corps or any one else is incapable of conducting this type of warfare the person is either arrogant, ignorant or just plain biased (MG Guest pedigree notwithstanding).
You folks in the Army need to understand that we Marine are the only service that was up for disbandment by another service (read Army). So when we see articles such as this that points out what we Marines can't do...well we simply steel our resolve and prove them wrong. Making we Marines out to be robots that only know how to kick doors in and destroy everything in sight while a little flattering is ignorance at best.
Now I do think that the Army would be foolish at best to disband SF.
Don't point the finger at we Marines, I think SF needs to address their issues to their parent service and SOCOM first and fix any issues they may have there before they start throwing rocks at we Marines. We have our marching orders and will accomplish the mission. If you GB's are so good then teach us the right way to do it so we don't make the mistakes you made starting out, oh and if SF's could take on all the FID missions then maybe other services wouldn't be tasked with it.

quote:

Originally posted by 16796442:
i have linked up with oda, berets and rangers in hot zones. Working with oda and berets was a good experience. I believe that the navy and marine corps are the tip of the spear when it comes to getting the mission accomplished. Your average ranger ranks a tad below the grunt marine. Marsoc has been introduced to socom and has set the bar.
When there is a sense that a recon marine is not so up to par, we send them to ranger school so that they can qualify and graduate so that we can continue to use them in our unit as trigger pullers. I think that oda and green berets are an asset to the special ops community and it would be a wast to go away with them. With that said you should just cut the army off completely and just keep the SF guys. We spend way to much money for the army to sit behind safe wall in hot zones with marines on watch, patrols and raids.

How do you get off by saying a Ranger is below a Marine grunt? Who the hell is doing the majority of combat patrols in Afghanistan and Iraq? Yes the army is a larger organization and therefore has more personnel on the ground but to say that the Army is worthless and are pogues following in the foot steps of Marines is B^!!$h!T!! Why do marines drop out of RGR school? And army soldiers pass? How come most of the marines that I served with or led in the army were f---ed up? The Army should adopt a more aggressive attitude in basic training and go back to the days of drill sergeants beating privates a new one for being screwed up. I admire the USMC for their virtues and commitment to honor their high espirit de corps and they start that in their Boot camp. But dont say they are superior to any soldier. Every service has their studs and duds. You must be some civilian contractor or fed employee that never served a day in a green uniform. If you were, get your head out of your 4th point of contact.

As for the disolving of the SF community, I hope this doesn't come to pass. I never understood the hostility RA shows towards SF. Green berets made it cool to be special operations long before SEALS, RGR Regt, and Force Recon. They are the corner stone of the Spec ops and historically been over deployed and over worked. The Brass sucks, they need to use common sense for once. Unfurl the old SF group guideons and add more soldiers. And the pentagon needs to lay off of all the new submarines and aircraft and spend a little money on what the army really needs.

quote:

Originally posted by 16796442:
i have linked up with oda, berets and rangers in hot zones. Working with oda and berets was a good experience. I believe that the navy and marine corps are the tip of the spear when it comes to getting the mission accomplished. Your average ranger ranks a tad below the grunt marine. Marsoc has been introduced to socom and has set the bar.
When there is a sense that a recon marine is not so up to par, we send them to ranger school so that they can qualify and graduate so that we can continue to use them in our unit as trigger pullers. I think that oda and green berets are an asset to the special ops community and it would be a wast to go away with them. With that said you should just cut the army off completely and just keep the SF guys. We spend way to much money for the army to sit behind safe wall in hot zones with marines on watch, patrols and raids.

Troll Alert

I think its stupid on the US Army's part, and its senior leadership, as a 23 year retired veteran, the SF has always played a critical role in the nations defense, most of the time prior to a situation becomes a problem. Their's only room for two SF groups, the Army GB, and the Navy Seals. Call your senators and congressmen and stop this BS in the Budd. The next thing they will want is a SF Coast Guard, and a NOAA SF. Let's spend our money wisely and foolishly building empires.

i dont think it will go anywhere some have been trying to do this for a long time now..... some of this i remember my friend complaining about way back in 1991....but who knows with the democrats on a rampage they just might try.... but really other then a friend who was an officer in sf talking about this some decade+ ago i dont really know much about it....

I think I may become physically sick after reading this article. I think the Pentagon has gone completly PC. All the posts in this column have hit the nail on the head. The brass is way out of line. SF will never die. As a vet of the Army Security Agency, I saw first hand the value of SF in Asia and the middle east. Their ops are so covert and so professional that it is hard to belive that this nonsense of eliminating them is STILL kicking around after all these years. For Christ Sake Washington, WAKE UP...

It will be a sad day if that ever happens. I remember their heroics in Viet-nam. They always amazed me.

I think this is back stabbing to the quite professional that have full filed all that was asked of them and more. Specially since the Special Forces are the primary force that the USSOCOM uses for its tough missions. They need to leave the the way they are, and let them keep doing what they do best. If they are Jealous, they should consider joining instead of hating.

SILLY ME, BUT THE IDIOT THAT WROTE THE ARTICLE SOUNDS LIKE HE HAS NO IDEA WHY THE SNAKE-EATERS WERE FORMED. THEY WEREN'T STARTED TO BE FIRST IN-FIRST OUT LIKE THE MARINES. HE BETTER GO READ HIS HISTORY.
SEMPER FI

The "Green Berets" need no defense. They have been and are unique of the services.

I served in association with the "Green Berets" at Khe Sany during 1967-68 including the defense of Khe Sanh while I was a Navy Corpsman with the Combined Action Company of Oscar II, Khe Sanh Villge,District Headquarters of Quang Tri Province.

I keep in touch with a number of them for these 40 years.Although I later became a Marine Captain and while am certainly proud of that heritage I am especially grateful to have served in combat with the SF as well. They are consumate warriors.

There mission was diffent than the mission of the Marines. Since then,they have been perfecting their special skills for all ever since and these skills cannot be quickly integrated from the other service

If you follow that logic then you go on a foul's errand. What is needed is a tripling of the SF's in terms of manpower and put in a Major General Officer selected from among their own ranks to expand and project the force.

The Pentagon and other civilian handlers believe that all that was learned in VietNam is worthless for today's challenges. What is happening today is the reinvention of the "wheel" .

God help us to survive our politicians and social planners and engineers.

Semper Fi my Brothers,

John"Doc"Capt Roberts
CAC, Oscar II
Khe Sanh Village
1967-68