Because of my asthma when I was a little kid about all I could do was read. Mostly I read anything that had to do with history. Military history was my passion. Through that reading, I developed a rather flag waving character. But as I did of necessity I was forced into learning about the politics of war. That kind of tore off my rose colored glasses when I was rather young.

Unfortunately political meddling in military affairs has been going on since before the French and Indian War. The Continental Congress refused to fund the Continental Army, Navy, and Marines. During the British occupation of Philadelphia (1777-78) prominent merchants and tradesmen refused to supply General George Washington at Valley Forge. Instead they sent everything from shoes to cattle to the British. Inspite of this General Washington's rag tag 2,400 farm boys came out of Valley Forge in June 1778 in hot pursuit of the retreating British Army, and achieved a significant victory at Monmouth. Inspite of greed obsessed politicians that stripped him of funding General Andrew Jackson defeated the British at the Battle of New Orleans. I could go on, but you get the picture. The point I am trying to make is that the pluck and determination of American Marines, soldiers, seamen and airmen have always carried the day inspite of incredible odds.

Wake Island is an oft forgotten campaign that illustrates my point. Inspite of the rotten leadership in Hawaii that recalled the convoy sent out to rescue them. The Marines of Wake Island put up gallant and incredible resistance sinking much of the first task force that was sent out to overrun the island. "Enemy on island, issue in doubt," was sent out just before the island fell. What was not told was the fact that many senior officers repeatedly tried to get the politicos to abandon the island before the Japanese attack. As I recall Foggy Bottom's best were HONOR bound to maintain the island as a refueling point for the Pan American Clipper flights to the orient.

Inspite of what the ones who call themselves 'liberals' would have us to believe, many, many General Officers have been forced out because they in fact predicted what would happen if thus and so were done, and have been proved correct repeatedly. But the coyote left wing media blithely ignores that fact and viciously attacks General Petraeus! General Petraeus according retired Lt. Col. Bob Maginnis, has actually been in the fore front of strongly disagreeing with Paul Bremer and Donald Rumsfeld. Bremer and Rumsfeld you will recall demanded the complete and total destruction of the Iraqi officer corps. They were in fact warned of the probable outcome of their policy, by people like Colin Powell.

They refused for the simple reason that great wealth was to be obtained by disbanding the Iraqi Army. Actually in my opinion neither one of them could care less if 50,000 American lives are lost as long as they got their cut. So now we are building a massive new billion dollar consulate in Baghdad because the elite anti-American state department wants it.

Because of all that including the constant trashing of our Constitution and Bill of Rights, the collapsing the dollar, and 590 Billion dollars the administration is now asking for, I am supporting the only one who wants to get us out of there.

RudyFred McRomney and the Democrats despise him and call him Dr. No because he he always votes against frittering our Armed Forces away in a never ending war of attrition. He always votes no when it comes to unnecessary taxes and social engineering.

Will the former Air Force Flight Surgeon win. Like Winston Churchill once said so aptly, "we will never surrender! Never, never, never ever!"
Interestingly enough Sir Winston wrote a very illuminating article around 1910 for his newspaper that warned strongly against of all things: Islamic Jihad Warriors who were willing to die just so that they could kill one of us. His solution was unrelenting eradication. Frankly, massive strikes on the enemy followed by rapid extraction seems to me to be the only way to show these people that we mean business. If the Iranians continue attack us we should quite simply obliterate Qom and a couple of other Shi'ite Holy cities without remorse. That is something that will work!

Rubbish!

THE

quote:

Originally posted by MarkAntney:

quote:

Originally posted by gmflatrate:
YOU SAY WOMEN AND CHILDREN BUT THERE ARE KIDS THROWING BOMBS AND ROCKS AND WOMEN KILLING ARE GUYS ALSO JUST BECAUSE ITS A KID OR A WOMEN THEY CAN KILL ARE GUYS JUST THE SAME.AND YOU ARE NO LONGER A CIVILIAN WHEN THEY USE A BOMB OR A GUN.

Are you stipulating (and or believe) those Women/Children killed in Haditha meet that standard?

ONE OF THE GIRLS THAT LIVED SAID SHE COVERED HER EARS BEFOR TH I.E.D WENT OFF AND KILLED ONE MARINE AND THAT TELLS ME THE PEOPLE IN THAT BUILDING ARE AT FAULT NOT THE MARINES!!

quote:

Originally posted by gmflatrate:
THE

quote:

Originally posted by MarkAntney:

quote:

Originally posted by gmflatrate:
YOU SAY WOMEN AND CHILDREN BUT THERE ARE KIDS THROWING BOMBS AND ROCKS AND WOMEN KILLING ARE GUYS ALSO JUST BECAUSE ITS A KID OR A WOMEN THEY CAN KILL ARE GUYS JUST THE SAME.AND YOU ARE NO LONGER A CIVILIAN WHEN THEY USE A BOMB OR A GUN.

Are you stipulating (and or believe) those Women/Children killed in Haditha meet that standard?

ONE OF THE GIRLS THAT LIVED SAID SHE COVERED HER EARS BEFOR TH I.E.D WENT OFF AND KILLED ONE MARINE AND THAT TELLS ME THE PEOPLE IN THAT BUILDING ARE AT FAULT NOT THE MARINES!!

Then why wasn't she one of the casualties? You're insinuating the women and children shot in Haditha are part of the insurgency and the same for the girl.

And if perhaps the little girl's Mother, Father, Uncles and Grand Parents are insurgents is the ROE to shoot all offspring or just the males?

If Haditha is that corrupted with Insurgency, why aren't you guys advocating blowing up the entire area?

It's much cleaner than shooting Women and Children caught in the middle or fully participating as you allude.

Don't see how you guys think having Women and Children being shot by our ROE in anyway advances the ideals that we're there to assist the Iraq Govt?


[URL=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/01/ap/world/mainD8HVL8EO3.shtml] ***(AP) The U.S. military ordered coalition troops in Iraq on Thursday to undergo special training in ethics and "the values that separate us from our enemies" in the wake of allegations that Marines killed two dozen unarmed civilians in Haditha. The order came as Iraq's government launched its own investigation of the deaths last November in the western town as well as other incidents involving U.S. troops. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki called the killings "a horrible crime," his strongest public comments on the incident since his government was sworn in May 20.

"This is a phenomenon that has become common among many of the multinational forces," al-Maliki said. "No respect for citizens, smashing civilian cars and killing on a suspicion or a hunch. It's unacceptable."

Al-Maliki's remarks appeared to lend credibility to complaints by Iraqis of what they see as U.S. troops' cultural insensitivity and disregard for Iraqi lives. To many Iraqis, the soldiers are occupiers seeking to control the country's oil wealth.

The Americans, on the other hand, are under intense pressure, isolated from Iraqis by cultural and language barriers and battling insurgents who easily blend into the civilian population. Some of the troops are in Iraq on their third combat tour since the U.S. invasion three years ago.
.***

Getting the facts (the actual events that transpired) there is a Pipe Dream at this time (to much bias, rage and uncertainty) but I don't see how the Iraq Govt and the citizens they represent and the rest of the MEast will say, "OK, those Women and Children were direct threats and thus should of been eliminated", if this incident will be ruled as an acceptable ROE.

And that will help our efforts in that region how?

quote:

Originally posted by MarkAntney:

quote:

Originally posted by gmflatrate:
THE

quote:

Originally posted by MarkAntney:

quote:

Originally posted by gmflatrate:
YOU SAY WOMEN AND CHILDREN BUT THERE ARE KIDS THROWING BOMBS AND ROCKS AND WOMEN KILLING ARE GUYS ALSO JUST BECAUSE ITS A KID OR A WOMEN THEY CAN KILL ARE GUYS JUST THE SAME.AND YOU ARE NO LONGER A CIVILIAN WHEN THEY USE A BOMB OR A GUN.

Are you stipulating (and or believe) those Women/Children killed in Haditha meet that standard?

ONE OF THE GIRLS THAT LIVED SAID SHE COVERED HER EARS BEFOR TH I.E.D WENT OFF AND KILLED ONE MARINE AND THAT TELLS ME THE PEOPLE IN THAT BUILDING ARE AT FAULT NOT THE MARINES!!

Then why wasn't she one of the casualties? You're insinuating the women and children shot in Haditha are part of the insurgency and the same for the girl.

And if perhaps the little girl's Mother, Father, Uncles and Grand Parents are insurgents is the ROE to shoot all offspring or just the males?

If Haditha is that corrupted with Insurgency, why aren't you guys advocating blowing up the entire area?

It's much cleaner than shooting Women and Children caught in the middle or fully participating as you allude.

Don't see how you guys think having Women and Children being shot by our ROE in anyway advances the ideals that we're there to assist the Iraq Govt?


[URL=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/01/ap/world/mainD8HVL8EO3.shtml] ***(AP) The U.S. military ordered coalition troops in Iraq on Thursday to undergo special training in ethics and "the values that separate us from our enemies" in the wake of allegations that Marines killed two dozen unarmed civilians in Haditha. The order came as Iraq's government launched its own investigation of the deaths last November in the western town as well as other incidents involving U.S. troops. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki called the killings "a horrible crime," his strongest public comments on the incident since his government was sworn in May 20.

"This is a phenomenon that has become common among many of the multinational forces," al-Maliki said. "No respect for citizens, smashing civilian cars and killing on a suspicion or a hunch. It's unacceptable."

Al-Maliki's remarks appeared to lend credibility to complaints by Iraqis of what they see as U.S. troops' cultural insensitivity and disregard for Iraqi lives. To many Iraqis, the soldiers are occupiers seeking to control the country's oil wealth.

The Americans, on the other hand, are under intense pressure, isolated from Iraqis by cultural and language barriers and battling insurgents who easily blend into the civilian population. Some of the troops are in Iraq on their third combat tour since the U.S. invasion three years ago.
.***

Getting the facts (the actual events that transpired) there is a Pipe Dream at this time (to much bias, rage and uncertainty) but I don't see how the Iraq Govt and the citizens they represent and the rest of the MEast will say, "OK, those Women and Children were direct threats and thus should of been eliminated", if this incident will be ruled as an acceptable ROE.

And that will help our efforts in that region how?

so You're also insinuating that the women and children had nothing to do with it.but the girl new the bomb was going to go off, and it is sad that her family put her in that spot, but dont blame the marine.blame the people how caused it and i hope you fill sad about the marine that died or maybe you dont ????

quote:

Originally posted by gmflatrate:

quote:

Originally posted by MarkAntney:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gmflatrate:
THE [QUOTE]Originally posted by MarkAntney:
[QUOTE]
Getting the facts (the actual events that transpired) there is a Pipe Dream at this time (to much bias, rage and uncertainty) but I don't see how the Iraq Govt and the citizens they represent and the rest of the MEast will say, "OK, those Women and Children were direct threats and thus should of been eliminated", if this incident will be ruled as an acceptable ROE.

And that will help our efforts in that region how?

so You're also insinuating that the women and children had nothing to do with it.but the girl new the bomb was going to go off, and it is sad that her family put her in that spot, but dont blame the marine.blame the people how caused it and i hope you fill sad about the marine that died or maybe you dont ????

If that's your argument, "i hope you fill sad about the marine that died or maybe you dont ????" or hoping the women and children caught in the middle ARE insurgents?

No I'm all giddy that a young American serving his country in Iraq has perished and just as excited at the prospects of his comrades that may have mistakenly killed those uninvolved and may have to pay for that mistake for years on end in prison. How old are you to ask such a question? Or maybe it's standard to respond in such a way when you've dealt with others you don't agree with?

It's no wonder OUR approval ratings are so low in other countries and why our leaders can't convince them (other countries) to assist our troops significantly but keep it up, with those types of approved ROE, we'll be out of Insurgents in no time,, I mean, no time soon.

Why aren't you and others demanding that young girl be executed, jailed, detained, interrogated; if she was part of the attack on our troops? The rest of the inhabitants of the area treated the same?

Why not have outrage at the nerve of media and interpreters communicating with her, why not advocate they be tried for Aiding and Abetting the enemy, she is the enemy, right?

Can't find anywhere, where they (you guys) want this young "would be" insurgent dealt with the same ROE?

No matter how you slice it, thanks to Congressman Murtha and the media, these Marines don't have a chance at a fair trial.

The advance condemnation of these men has assured that they will be considered murders by ignorant idiots.

If they are found guilty, these same idiots will say that all Marines are murderers. If they are exonerated these people will say it's a cover up. Talk about a lose, lose situation.

What Murtha said was wrong for a congressman and doubly wrong for a Marine. His refusal to temper his remarks in light of the real situation makes him not only wrong but stupid. His remarks show his total lack of respect for Marines. Loyalty and respect are 2 way streets. You want loyalty/respect, you have to provide the same. Congressman Murtha willingly gave up any right he had to be called a Marine when he knowingly and deliberately made false statements to the press about fellow Marines.

Murder implies forethought on the part of these men, I don't see any evidence of that.

That makes Murtha a liar.

Could it have been handled differently? No one will ever know for sure. The one thing I do know is that only 1 Marine died that day. If they had reacted with hesitancy, there might be a lot more of them dead. Was it their quick, forceful reaction that forced the terrorists to flee more quickly than planned? Probably.

Even with over 30 years in the MC I have never been placed in the situation these young men were in. I thank God for not having to make the decisions they had to.

I am sorry that women and children died in this incident but it is not the Marines fault. It is the fault of the terrorists that have no respect for any life.

Can we learn from this and make changes in training/tactics to minimize the chance it will happen again? Yes. Of course this will probably end up getting Marines and Soldiers killed but the women and children the terrorist are hiding behind will be safe, along with the terrorists.

How many of you that are condemning the Marines would have done more than blame the Marine Corps and President Bush if these Marines had all died over there? I see posts on here all of the time that condemn the president for the military personal that have died, instead of the terrorists and the candy A$$'$ that have placed unreasonable restrictions on the Warriors.

They can see men firing with automatic weapons from a mosque and have to request permission to return fire. Now they will be forced to request permission to chase terrorist into buildings? That is the solution that is being advocated.

MarkAnteny and dhue, everyone knows that killing women and children is not part of the ROE. Why do you insist that it is? Are you the same type of stupid liar that congressman Murtha is?

How many Soldiers and Marines have died / will die because they are afraid to react with all possible force in this same type situation?

quote:

Originally posted by MGYSGTLee:
No matter how you slice it, thanks to Congressman Murtha and the media, these Marines don't have a chance at a fair trial.

The advance condemnation of these men has assured that they will be considered murders by ignorant idiots.

If they are found guilty, these same idiots will say that all Marines are murderers. If they are exonerated these people will say it's a cover up. Talk about a lose, lose situation.

What Murtha said was wrong for a congressman and doubly wrong for a Marine. His refusal to temper his remarks in light of the real situation makes him not only wrong but stupid. His remarks show his total lack of respect for Marines. Loyalty and respect are 2 way streets. You want loyalty/respect, you have to provide the same. Congressman Murtha willingly gave up any right he had to be called a Marine when he knowingly and deliberately made false statements to the press about fellow Marines.

Murder implies forethought on the part of these men, I don't see any evidence of that.

That makes Murtha a liar.

Could it have been handled differently? No one will ever know for sure. The one thing I do know is that only 1 Marine died that day. If they had reacted with hesitancy, there might be a lot more of them dead. Was it their quick, forceful reaction that forced the terrorists to flee more quickly than planned? Probably.

Even with over 30 years in the MC I have never been placed in the situation these young men were in. I thank God for not having to make the decisions they had to.

I am sorry that women and children died in this incident but it is not the Marines fault. It is the fault of the terrorists that have no respect for any life.

Can we learn from this and make changes in training/tactics to minimize the chance it will happen again? Yes. Of course this will probably end up getting Marines and Soldiers killed but the women and children the terrorist are hiding behind will be safe, along with the terrorists.

How many of you that are condemning the Marines would have done more than blame the Marine Corps and President Bush if these Marines had all died over there? I see posts on here all of the time that condemn the president for the military personal that have died, instead of the terrorists and the candy A$$'$ that have placed unreasonable restrictions on the Warriors.

They can see men firing with automatic weapons from a mosque and have to request permission to return fire. Now they will be forced to request permission to chase terrorist into buildings? That is the solution that is being advocated.

MarkAnteny and dhue, everyone knows that killing women and children is not part of the ROE. Why do you insist that it is? Are you the same type of stupid liar that congressman Murtha is?

How many Soldiers and Marines have died / will die because they are afraid to react with all possible force in this same type situation?

You and I differ on this, thats plain to see and you won't find ANYWHERE (I don't think) that I'm insisting anything other than incidents like this can't be condoned, for if it is, it'll be viewed as an ACCEPTABLE ROE by a lot of people!

And exactly HOW will that advance our goals?

And if I didn't say this, I'm doing it now;

From what I've read (and I've read up on this quite a bit) I don't know to many folks that wouldn't of acted similar (fear, survival, training, War Zone, Comrad just blown to bits (add what I left out, please)...

But what ended up happening is a bunch of Women, Children and Old Folks, Shot in their Homes at the hands of a foreign military with current and future stated goals of making things better for the very SAME folks that ended up dead.

How exactly will that in anyway advance our goals, beliefs, intentions, goodwill (add what I left out, please)?

There's a big picture out there and unfortunately we can't close our eyes to it guys.

I keep telling y'all view the 60Minutes Interview; it's a good place to start, http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/15/60minutes/main2574973.shtml

Sgt. Frank Wuterich, represented Marines, his family and himself well and take away the interviewer using the words "Murdered" or "Kill" a few times he was very neutral.

We all make mistakes, I just feel this is a Grave error regardless of guilt or not but definitely done by some of our finest.

If I'd studied in school, was smart, and could pass the bar (instead of stopping and drinking at all of them in my horrid past), I'd represent him.

WATCH IT FOR YOURSELVES

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MarkAntney,

Its called war for a reason. Collateral damage-Maybe. Only those who were there really knows what happened and hopefully they will remember thier training. Semper fi.......

Is there any simularity in this to what John Kerry did?

He, according to action reports, jumped from his boat, chased and killed a Vietnamese male carrying a loaded RPG.

Now during the last election he was accused of chasing down and killing an unarmed man by some of his fellow Swift Boat people though they were not actually present themselves.

Is this way out and too different?

quote:

Originally posted by anoldnotboldrecondo:
Is there any simularity in this to what John Kerry did?

He, according to action reports, jumped from his boat, chased and killed a Vietnamese male carrying a loaded RPG.

Now during the last election he was accused of chasing down and killing an unarmed man by some of his fellow Swift Boat people though they were not actually present themselves.

Is this way out and too different?

John Kerry's not President, he lost the election, he's not doing ads defending his service any longer and he's not running for president now.

You may want to see if any Swift Boaters are out there for Hillary when she was in College and Obama when he was schooled overseas (I recall CNN or Fox making outrageous claims on him) to update your material?

You could start it, Swift Students for Truth (for Obama) or Sororiety Girls for Truth (for Hillary)?

John Kerry's not President, he lost the election, he's not doing adds defending his service any longer and he's not running now.

You may want to see if any Swift Boaters are out there for Hillary and Obama to update your material?[/QUOTE]

Maybe so but it is going to be hard since other than 'Crazy John' and Ron Paul none of the current crop have even been to basic.

hell is war, war is hell! it brings the best and the worst in people

quote:

Originally posted by anoldnotboldrecondo:
John Kerry's not President, he lost the election, he's not doing adds defending his service any longer and he's not running now.

You may want to see if any Swift Boaters are out there for Hillary and Obama to update your material?

Maybe so but it is going to be hard since other than 'Crazy John' and Ron Paul none of the current crop have even been to basic.[/QUOTE]
__________________________________________________________________________________________

You got to admit though, that #amn Ron Paul is entertaining?

I say him and that crazy dude running from Alaska can straigthen this govt out before they lower their hands at their swearing in ceremony.

Just saw a news release. Looks like the charges against Sgt. Wuterich, and the rest of the young brothers have been dismissed. John (Jane Fonda)Murtha, the friggen media, and a few other maggots need to give these young brother Marines a very public apology. I'm sure that His/their statements have put the bros. and their families through hell, and who knows how many bros. may have been WIA, or KIA because they hesitated because of all of this.
Semper Fi!

As some of you know I know Ssgt Wutterich. I served with him when he first came to the fleet. I was his NCO at the time. I knew and said that he is a good man. I am sick to my gut just thinking of the stress he and his family endured. I am proud of him and the way he stood up and justified himself in court awhile back. I just cant beleive how bad these guys were treated. I got to go puke now..