OK, various clips of soldiers training to clear a room through a doorway show that one soldier removes the door's hinges using 2 shotgun slugs in quick succession before switching back to an automatic carbine or rifle. Given that equipment weight is a constant issue and that the M203 is capable of firing a buckshot round, could it make sense to develop a slug round for the M203 already carried?
Below are some personal guesses why it might not make sense, but I'd appreciate any professional insight.
1) The risk of a new guy accidentally loading and firing an HE round at zero range
2) Larger slug could have overpenetration issues or perhaps too little penetration over the 40mm diameter impact area (depends on the pressure that the M203 shorty barrel can withstand)
3) The guys' stackup would be thrown off by needing to have two guys with sightline on the hinges immediately pre-entry
4) The M203 is being tasked for other things in certain cases of entry (firing CS into the room?).

Thanks for any deeper understanding that you can provide.

???
I have never seen that. But that doesn't mean that things have changed and it's indeed what some teams are doing. I wouldn't use slugs when buckshot are my preference, both for taking down doors and entering. Who and why are breechers using shotgun first and then switching to carbine? Ever hear that every second counts? Why wouldn't the breecher take a step back so carbine-ready members can enter? It's gonna take a second for the door to hit the ground, even longer to switch weapons. Using a 203 for entry? May I ask where you get this stuff? I'd like to look into it and become educated. 40mm slug is a 'little' overkill. Sheet, why not bring in a mini-gun or just implode the room/building.

army engineer wrote: I wouldn't use slugs when buckshot are my preference, both for taking down doors and entering.

http://www.cqbsupply.com/doorbreaching.html
http://www.polyshok.com/picatinny_report.htm

army engineer wrote: Who and why are breechers using shotgun first and then switching to carbine? Ever hear that every second counts? Why wouldn't the breecher take a step back so carbine-ready members can enter? It's gonna take a second for the door to hit the ground, even longer to switch weapons. Using a 203 for entry?

He is not the first person through the door. From what I have seen, the rest of the team stacks on door and enters as soon as breacher completes. He follows later in the sequence, using carbine from what I have seen of MOUT training. Doesn't change him carrying the extra weapon though which is the root of my question.

army engineer wrote: May I ask where you get this stuff?

By "stuff", do you mean the question of whether there is an engineering or doctrinal reason for not using the M203 in this role rather than carrying an extra weapon? If so, purely trying to understand why the extra weight is justified.

army engineer wrote: 40mm slug is a 'little' overkill.

That might be true if the muzzle energy of M203 equaled shotgun muzzle energy. The Mk19 barrel can withstand higher pressures, but the M203 is relatively thin-walled for low-pressure use. The M4 carbine short version of the M203 also has a shorter barrel than most shotguns. Muzzle energy of a shotgun has been estimated by Remington at 2361 ft-lbs. Ballparking the M1029 Crowd Dispersal Round mass and muzzle velocity, I come up with a muzzle energy just over half that of the shotgun so it seems actually less likely to over-penetrate, especially with the greater energy needed for the larger diameter round to punch through the door.

army engineer wrote: Sheet, why not bring in a mini-gun or just implode the room/building.

That would be the purpose of XM982 Excalibur round, but there's a cost issue involved. :-)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: kspengler,

First, they're not firing slugs or buckshot.
The door breacher uses a powdered metal round that expends all the energy against the target. No energy absorbed by the deformation of a slug and no shrapnel.

Can you even imagine firing a 40mm Slug?

The powdered metal round needs to be fired from a precise distance. Notice the magazine tube on the shotgun sticks out beyond the muzzle? The end of the mag tube touches the door, below the target, that gives the correct stand-off for the round.

Hey guys, thanks for the information. I'm not claiming to know how things are or how they should be. I've never fired the powdered rounds before. My train of thought was old buckshot, enough to down hinges and assailants. Most homes are not custom built, they do not have fancy heavy doors and heavy hardware.
It's pretty cool what entry teams have available now, eyes and ears on the rooms that they'd have to enter. But I guess it also depends on department budget allowing what equipment they may have.

gumbydammit said: First, they're not firing slugs or buckshot. The door breacher uses a powdered metal round that expends all the energy against the target.

The breaching round is called a slug, the general term for a single projectile from a shotgun whether it contains metal powder in a plastic container, solid metal, or solid plastic for crowd control. Please check the first link I provided above for confirmation of the round name.

During a "Safe Entry & Building Search" class over 20 years ago, the breaching topic came up.

Our instructor told us there were PD's that came up with a homemade breaching round that consisted of a 12 gauge shotgun round with the pellets removed. A glass testtube full of water, with a rubber stopper, was insert into the round, and it was fired from a single shot shotgun into the door handle.

The hydrostat shock blew the handle/lock right out of the door.

Interesting concept.

Now that would be a very cost effective round! Sometimes simple works out to be the best. I saw that hydrostatic concept on one of the new weapons show, a bag of water's placed behind a flat explosive, placed on a door and detonated. The water directed all the energy at the target. A little wet, but job gets done.

quote:

Originally posted by kspengler:
gumbydammit said: First, they're not firing slugs or buckshot. The door breacher uses a powdered metal round that expends all the energy against the target.

The breaching round is called a slug, the general term for a single projectile from a shotgun whether it contains metal powder in a plastic container, solid metal, or solid plastic for crowd control. Please check the first link I provided above for confirmation of the round name.

Yes, slug is the correct term. However, 90% of shooters will think of the old lead "Pumpkin Ball" when you use Shotgun and Slug in the same sentence. I was trying to differentiate between the two.

quote:

Originally posted by army_engineer:
Now that would be a very cost effective round! Sometimes simple works out to be the best. I saw that hydrostatic concept on one of the new weapons show, a bag of water's placed behind a flat explosive, placed on a door and detonated. The water directed all the energy at the target. A little wet, but job gets done.

I think I saw the same show, or at least a similar one. Might have been mythbusters or someting. Or a simliar type of show.

I wish my memory was sharper. That episode also showed them blasting through a conex. Pretty impressive, I wish I can train with that. You might get a little wet, but big deal. Water dries.

It was probably on "Future Weapons", I recall something about blowing a whole doorway (looked like a portal) through a wall.

I completed the FBI's basic SWAT course recently, and we worked with the 12 guage breaching rounds. As stated above, this particular round fires a compressed copper or compressed zinc "slug" that destroys a lock or hinge. The locks and hinges are typically a door's weak spots.

The idea is to destroy the lock and gain entry with minimal risk to occupants of the room being entered. Depending on the application, the entry team may be rescuing hostages or advancing on a barricaded suspect and they have to protect innocent lives. A penetrating round would destroy the lock, but also endanger innocent lives. The compressed powder expends itself at the point of impact. The lock could still be propelled a long distance at high velocity though.

As far as stacking goes, it is often better to have your breacher defeat the locks and then step aside. If he uses a ram or a hooligan or a shotgun, he does his job while the entry team covers him, then he steps aside and allows the team to flow past. The breacher can then join in the end of the conga line.

Now, having said that, I will also offer this... Different schools have different philosophies. Some may teach a different method and say that everyone else is wrong. I like learning as many different techniques as possible, so that no matter what the situation, we can adapt our tactics to fit the needs.

quote:

Originally posted by army_engineer:
Now that would be a very cost effective round! Sometimes simple works out to be the best. I saw that hydrostatic concept on one of the new weapons show, a bag of water's placed behind a flat explosive, placed on a door and detonated. The water directed all the energy at the target. A little wet, but job gets done.

why go through all that trouble when say... 50lbs of C4 can do the job... plus some

Shooting the hinges on a door is the least reliable method to gaining entry, the first being that you will have to fire multiple rounds to gain entry, also if the door is tight you will still have to deal with the locking mechanism.

Reason why the grenadier would not be that guy is for the following:
-he will normally be carrying a round of HE/HEDP in the tube, something that is more effective. Also changing out the rounds is a loud and time consuming process thanks to the Army's issue POS pouches.
-his ammo load out will not allow for many other rounds, considering the fact that there might be a number of doors in a house that might require more than one round he won't have the room to carry unnecessary rounds. He is the grenadier not the breacher. My grenadier carried 12-16 HEDP, 2 shotgun rounds, 2 smoke rounds, 2 star cluster, 2-5 non-lethals and a CS round thats 22 rds that were worn on a belt and his vest in addition to standard combat load, 1 HC smoke, CLS bag, and breacher tool. The grenadier and rifleman (if you have one of those) are the pack mules for the fire team.
-some doors will require more than one round to gain entry, this is not a viable option as the 203 is slow to reload.

quote:

Originally posted by 17798611:


why go through all that trouble when say... 50lbs of C4 can do the job... plus some

Do you have a clue about what you are talking about? 50 lbs of C4 would come out to be around 40 sticks of C4, that is enough to kill you and your team without proper stand off distance, anyone in pretty much the side of the house that your breaching, and set off any secondary explosions (i.e. all those damn gas tanks that haji likes to leave around). The job of the breacher is to guaranty entry into the building using the least amount of force necessary to accomplish this.

I did a little bit of a research. I've so far discovered two rounds that do the job, I'm sure there's additional rounds out there.

There's the M1030 breaching round. I've got no experience using such a round but on paper it states that it's a 12 gauge 2 and 3/4 inch shell which uses a 1.4 ounce projectile made of powdered steel, bound with wax. Supposedly in use by the US military.

Then comes the Hatton Round; a 12 gauge 3 inch magnum shell which uses a 1.8 ounce frangible projectile consisting of a high density material in a plastic binder. That's just some info I dug up. Hope that helps!

Dude, relax. I believe the 50lbs of C4 crack was a joke.

quote:

Originally posted by StrykerSol21:
Shooting the hinges on a door is the least reliable method to gaining entry, the first being that you will have to fire multiple rounds to gain entry, also if the door is tight you will still have to deal with the locking mechanism.

Reason why the grenadier would not be that guy is for the following:
-he will normally be carrying a round of HE/HEDP in the tube, something that is more effective. Also changing out the rounds is a loud and time consuming process thanks to the Army's issue POS pouches.
-his ammo load out will not allow for many other rounds, considering the fact that there might be a number of doors in a house that might require more than one round he won't have the room to carry unnecessary rounds. He is the grenadier not the breacher. My grenadier carried 12-16 HEDP, 2 shotgun rounds, 2 smoke rounds, 2 star cluster, 2-5 non-lethals and a CS round thats 22 rds that were worn on a belt and his vest in addition to standard combat load, 1 HC smoke, CLS bag, and breacher tool. The grenadier and rifleman (if you have one of those) are the pack mules for the fire team.
-some doors will require more than one round to gain entry, this is not a viable option as the 203 is slow to reload.

quote:

Originally posted by 17798611:


why go through all that trouble when say... 50lbs of C4 can do the job... plus some

Do you have a clue about what you are talking about? 50 lbs of C4 would come out to be around 40 sticks of C4, that is enough to kill you and your team without proper stand off distance, anyone in pretty much the side of the house that your breaching, and set off any secondary explosions (i.e. all those damn gas tanks that haji likes to leave around). The job of the breacher is to guaranty entry into the building using the least amount of force necessary to accomplish this.

quote:

Originally posted by GeneSchubeck:
Dude, relax. I believe the 50lbs of C4 crack was a joke.

I could but then I would stop being a ***hole, what would be fun in that?

Just to clarify a little, In 28 months, I never saw any specialized rounds for door breaching, just 00 buck and #4 buck.

Breach man took out the hinges, #1 man kicked in the door, #2 rolled in with the rest of the team following. Breach followed 4th or 5th, having already transitioned to his M4. #1 remained outside as security.

Good point. Carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by StrykerSol21:

quote:

Originally posted by GeneSchubeck:
Dude, relax. I believe the 50lbs of C4 crack was a joke.

I could but then I would stop being a ***hole, what would be fun in that?