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Basic Training |
My $0.02... I am not sure how a dedicated LE rating would even be manageable, much less cost effective, for operational units. Are we supposed to have extra racks installed? Lose a billet for a shiprider? Buy a fleet of LE-only small boats? (driven by BM's or LE's with a Coxswain qual? confusing.) I think we would be doing our service a dis-service by forming a rating dedicated to law enforcement. Part of the beauty of the CG LEO is the fact that we are all from different backgrounds and have different skill sets that enhance our collective LE expertise. A dedicated LE rate takes this depth of experience away. Just read the posts in this thread to illustrate my point..."didn't join to paint or turn wrenches". Whatever happened to multi-mission? I do agree that we need to revamp some of our training and tactics. Probably could do a better job of screening new recruits with LE in mind. There are a variety of things that we could do to mend the weak spots in our program. I have seen a few sides of LE both in and out of the CG and I am impressed with what we have in place. IMO an LE rate is not the answer. As always...I welcome discussions from those with a different opinion.
GIB |
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"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" - Gordon Lightfoot |
 Back in the mid 80's, the Coast Guard bought five of these 43' Tempest boats (4 new and one from DEA) strictly to do L/E. Miami had three, Ft. Lauderdale had one and Islamorada had one. I was at Islamorada at the time we had 43503. The boats were full of problems due to the heavy turbo charged diesels that even the Catapillar Mechanic told me were made for sportfish boats, not a go-fast. They also had problems with dissimilar metals in the steering cases along with frequently sheering shafts. We had five BM1's come to Station Islamorada specifically to be Cox'ns on that boat along with some MK's. Our station personnel rose to about 45. The two L/E crews pretty much were committed to patrols both local and distant working with the WPB's while we still had three SAR/LE duty sections. Personally, I thought it was a great idea, just the wrong boat for it. Another problem was the Coast Guard sent all those BM1's when only two of them ever really cared about doing that job, the others faded off into Admin jobs. With the limited number of rooms at the station, BAQ was given and we never had any issues of overcrowding. In major L/E, smuggling areas such as South Florida, PR, Southern California and I'm guessing Texas, I think it would be a huge benefit to have an L/E rating and specific boats. Gather up those who love doing L/E and are dedicated to it. At CBP, we love the 39' Midnights with the quad Mercury 225's. They rode pretty good and maintenance was easier with the outboards vs inboards or inboard/outboards. (some of you eagle-eyed people may notice the second boat in is slightly different. That's because it is the older 37' Midnight Express that was totally rebuilt. The rest are the new 39' Midnight Express boats) FYI, each boat costs around $300,000.  You will never see a boat load of CBP Marine Interdiction Agents who have to share in SAR or preparing the office for an inspection. Other than the occasional office inventory, they are dedicated to being out on the water looking for smugglers, etc. If an L/E rate were made, the Coast Guard could do the same in more places other than MSST's and TACLETS. Don |
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Basic Training |
Originally posted by 21yrsUSCGUSCS "You will never see a boat load of CBP Marine Interdiction Agents who have to share in SAR or preparing the office for an inspection. Other than the occasional office inventory, they are dedicated to being out on the water looking for smugglers, etc. If an L/E rate were made, the Coast Guard could do the same in more places other than MSST's and TACLETS."
I know it seems like TACLETS and MSST's are "out doing the kings business" while the inspections and admin work gets done by others, but this is utterly and totally untrue. Inspections and Admin are everyones business in the CG. Walk into any MSST/Taclet office while the teams are not on a deployment and tell me what you see. Former MSST member sends. As far as "gathering those that love to do LE" in certain Geographic locations...done. There are loads of qualified, certified, motivated, proficient, LE lovers in all of those locations. Ask the Cutters and Stations that are there. I have yet to be convinced that a rating is the way to go. I am perfectly happy doing all of the things that I do, to include LE. If everyone wants to be a "dedicated LEO" then move along...or accept the fact that we are multi-mission and be great at ALL of them. All of this LE rating talk is merely academic anyways! Standing by... Gib |
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Member |
How can it be an LE rating making members LEO's when there is no attendance at a full time Academy, 6 months plus, to learn LE. Then working in an LE capacity, investigating crimes, actually making arrests and preparing reports and testifying in court, processing crime scenes, interviewing victims/witnesses/suspects etc.
Just boarding boats and enforcing select laws does not an LEO make. CGIS not withstanding. And yes, I've done all that and more. |
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Member |
One of the things that makes most of the CG Boarding Officers good at what they do is the knowledge they have of the Maritime Arena. The diverse background of a CG Boarding Team is always a benefit to the mission. BM's know the deck side from their experience, MK's know engineering and tank configuration. DC's know construction and the list goes on and on. Every rate brings something to the table. Like I said before, even if you had an LE Rate you would still would have every other rate doing boarding’s and LE. Consider how the FBI was created. the founding Director said it was easier to teach accountants to shoot weapons than it was to teach cops to investigate white collar crimes. My 2 cents would be that it is easier to teach all Coasties to do LE than it would be to teach an LEO to be a good Coastie. There was one more LE only vessel program. The TAGOS boats at PACTACLET and that didn't last too long due to a plethora of reasons. We were more successful in the same old LE tactics we used rather than the TAGOS program. The greatest improvement and effective program we now have is the HITRON program and it is really been effective.
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Basic Training |
BTDT,
We'll have to agree to disagree. IMO the CG has a very solid LEO training program. The BO and BTM schools are well done and produce competent CG boarding teams. There is semi-annual and annual required training. A semi-annual PT test. Continuing education available to those motivated enough to participate. We do OK. Many civilian PD's don't come close to our recurring training requirements. 6 Months plus? Where is that? I have seen night courses, 2 months, 3 months, on up for civilian LE training. I think our 5 weeks and continuing training are more than adequate. I investigate crimes (or possible crimes), process crime scenes, prepare reports, and interview people on every boarding. I may not wrestle around and throw the cuffs on people every day, but I do take enforcement action. If "enforcing select laws does not an LEO make", then you should have a talk with all the federal agencies that concentrate on specific areas of federal law. They might go crazy and enforce another agencies laws sometimes...but so do we. I really have a problem with Coasties badmouthing our LE program without really looking at it objectively. We do have a lot of room for improvement, but we are doing a pretty good job, and have been for a long time. I respect your opinion and welcome discussions about CG LE. (I'm still not convinced we need an LE rating!) I also have Been There and Done That. Yes, I have a t-shirt too! GIB |
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"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" - Gordon Lightfoot |
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"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" - Gordon Lightfoot |
Doesn't the term "Law Enforcement Officer" mean an officer who enforces laws? Of course the CG BO's are LEOs! I understand the point you are making but wanted to add that as a USCS Marine Enforcement Officer, I had to go through 15 weeks at FLETC (Criminal Investigator and Customs Basic) before heading to 7 more weeks of Basic Boat School and Advance Boat School. Those 15 weeks included a lot of courses that as a MEO, I never used again, ie; Child Pornography, Fraud, Money Laundering, Motorcycle Gangs, etc. I went through two MLE courses when I was in the USCG and I think they are pretty good at what they cover in reference to what the Coast Guard Mission is. Of course, there's probably always a few more things that could be added to any training. I have read on different discussions about some extra training for the USCG with the USMC. I think that's great! Yes, maybe a greater effort could be put into training on witness statements, testifying, preserving crime scene, etc. I can't say what is being taught now so I don't know. I think one of the above posts (Cajun MK) does bring out a lot of great points though...in ref to BM's knowing about the deck area, MK's and DC's the engine spaces. If there ever is an L/E rate formed, hopefully it will draw people from different rates to add to the knowledge pool. In my humble opinion, it is the idea of being a "Jack of all trades" that hurts the USCG L/E program. A BM who ever hopes to make BMC might have to do some time at ATON to help his or her career along. While it would likely make them a much better, well rounded BMC, this would only cut down on his/her law enforcement experience and training when it came time to be an OinC at a high drug trafficking area. Don |
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Basic Training |
21yearsUSCGUSCS said..."In my humble opinion, it is the idea of being a "Jack of all trades" that hurts the USCG L/E program. A BM who ever hopes to make BMC might have to do some time at ATON to help his or her career along. While it would likely make them a much better, well rounded BMC, this would only cut down on his/her law enforcement experience and training when it came time to be an OinC at a high drug trafficking area."
I disagree. I think the "jack of all trades" mentality helps any LEO while "on the job". I'm sure that there is something to be said for specialization, but LE is not always a straight forward job. The well rounded BMC may have a couple of tricks up his/her sleeve that are lost upon the LE focused specialist. I won't even get into the relief from burnout that different jobs help to facilitate. The comment about the mix of rates in the new LE rate is right on the money. It would definitely be a benefit. Until the old guys are gone, and the new guys know nothing other than the LE rating. Good conversation, Don. This would be more interesting in person! Gib |
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Member |
Consider this. If you create an LE Rate once the knowledge that others who initially cross over and bring with them is gone you may never replace it with young members coming into the new Rate. They will only be trained in LE and all the experience that was brought over by the diversity of Rates conducting LE will be lost. If you use the current rate knowledge and the ALEC program you will keep that specialty knowledge in the LE realm. Even a BM who leaves the LE for a tour in ATON will bring something valuable back with him/her when they come back into the LE side. I left the LE side came back left again and came back again and each time I brought something new and valuable from my other experiences with me. In the end we all are better off for their CG experiences and knowledge on the LE side. From ATON to the M Field or the many other operation and support fields we have. That is what makes the CG one of the greatest services there is. You get so much experience in so many fields that you are prepared to do virtually anything you were trained in or did while in the CG in a civilian career.
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"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" - Gordon Lightfoot |
Sounds like everyone has some pretty good points. Yes, it would be an interesting discussion in person as a group.
Don |
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Member |
I do agree with you Don. I would add this point as well that this is one of the most professional and respectfull discussions I have seen here. Its a shame all discussions can't be conducted in the manner this one has.
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Basic Training |
My understanding is that the LE rate is only going to be for the MSST's, TACLET's, and MSRT. By doing this it will keep the experienced members moving from TACLET, MSST's,and MSRT or to stay at one of those units for years. Also you would have to be at least an E-4 or have more than 3, go though a selection process, and then make it though a basic LE/tactical officer coarse. Once that is completed you would go to a selected unit and receive your unit's SOP training.
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Member |
Sounds like the ALEQ program to me. You would still need other rates at TACLET's, MSRT's and MSST's to do their jobs. The the LE/Tactical Officer course sounds like programs in existiance within TACLET, MSRT and MSST's today. Just a new wrapper on the same thing we were doing at TACLET when I retired from there. I could be wrong but from what you just described that is exactally what it sounds like.
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Basic Training |
Do you know if they have contemplated having the LE rated personnel rotate into non-operational units like MLE school or even ITD.
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Member |
From the Reserve PS side, this may be the rate that the PS is going to, per our Force Notes, so how does that fit into the scheme of things?
We can't be at TACLETS, LEDETs, MSSTs (some) unless we are on AD. |
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Basic Training |
Since everyone is throwing in their .02 cents and waving around their highly qualified tee-shirts that they've earned...here is mine.
From someone who has visited a fair amount of CG units conducting LE on a regular basis. The CG has some scary-unqualified, unmotivated, non-LE minded personnel conducting this collateral duty. It would be a great idea to turn it into a rate, work out the bugs, and require a significant increase in training/educating to join this rate. Maybe it shouldn't be a mission that just anyone who barely qualifies at the range should be allowed to participate in. Perhaps the CG should take a closer look at how we do the LE mission. There may be a descent amount of Coasties that, regardless of rate, are more than capable of conducting LE. But there is also a significant amount that should be banned from LE. |
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Basic Training |
Jeff
great post, I agree with you 100%. stay safe BMC ed |
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"Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the minutes to hours?" - Gordon Lightfoot |
It's almost like you can read my mind!  Don |
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Basic Training |
jleas...
I'll let the t-shirt quip slide! But only cuz' I like ya! Hell, I'll even give you a couple if you want! Have you been to a PD lately and seen some of the folks doing the job there? How can you be sure that making LE the only thing that you do will automatically make everything better with CG LE? You have a valid point with the range qual and the caliber of a few of our LE folks. But, isn't this a CG wide problem? Aren't we all, as a military service, supposed to have some kind of proficiency with service weapons? Could we solve the problems we have with CG LE by concentrating on better and more frequent firearms traning for all operational personnel? Maybe a more stringent recruitment process with realistic expectations for incoming members. The problems with CG LE are not unique to this one aspect of our service. If we solved all of the problems we have by creating a rating, we'd be just like all the other services. One of the reasons I love the CG is the fact that we get to do a little of everything...including LE. The "barely qualified at the range" person that does the mission is still qualified...unless we started issuing "barely qualified-qualification letters"(even then). If there is something wrong with the minimum standard then we need to lobby to make a change. Otherwise, it's time to be leaders and and get our folks excited about their jobs, keep them trained, and remind them of, and hold them accountable for, their responsibilities as Coast Guard BO's and BTM's. As for the scary folks doing the LE duty...how about the scary folks that are supposed to be engineers and boat drivers but have been out of rate so long they don't want to go back? Isn't this the same thing as the guys who aren't excited about LE? Shouldn't they be held accountable for the skillsets that they are required to maintain? Seems to me that being a great BM or MK or whatever should be the priority over just being good at LE. At least until the LE rating is established! Gib |
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