I completely agree with the whole do it if your billet requires it. But last time i looked as an IT on a 270 LE wasnt a billet requirement. In fact 99% of the time i am in CIC for LE cases. The offbeat chance i may be on the say flight deck with migrants to help serve meals, i dont think qualifies me as being in an LE billet is all. Your right i am in the military and when it comes down to it if they say you have to get sprayed. Hey who am i to fight it and get booked. Still doesnt make it right just because it is lawful!

Just go to the Boat Manual Vol I. and see part 2 Sec E.8

you should find some important stuff there......

Another thing is this. One point of being sprayed is to know you can fight through it. And I know I can. But I also know that I am willing to shoot someone not to have to. I can fight through it, and I have in training. But I am also not trained to fight fair. If I know someone is going to incapacitate me, not totally, but to the extent OC does, I know I will no longer be fighting fair. And anyone who says they get it and they know what it feels like without being sprayed, for the most part, I'm gonna call you on that. To be sprayed again along with 55 other people who had never even seen the stuff before and hear the before and after talk, I can tell you (and I'm not being corny, irrational, or macho, because my wife will tell you I'm a baby), getting sprayed may save your life.

Yep, I concur.

Im no expert....but every LE gig in the nation that I have heard of does this training, as with tazers, etc. There is obviously a reason for it.

The effects of a SOLID METAL BATON or .40 FIREARM are obvious. OC is the in between. And as for the batons, even with pads....YES..MLEA and TRATEAMS train you and you feel the impact and result of its use.

To the original poster...suck it up. LE is part of our job. Want the same pay as your peers? Have fun

Jason, not every LE gig in the nation requires the officers to take a hit from a taser in order to carry. I worked for two dept's that didn't require it. You were required to get the training, but taking a hit was not one of the requirements. Some do, some don't.

check out the marines getting sprayed on youtube, they take it to a whole different level, just type in oc spraying.

You know that you also must carry intermediate weapons if you are conducting force protection duties also, not just LE.

quote:

Originally posted by framedinglass:

quote:

Originally posted by JerryG:


Someone using OC against you is a deadly force situation. Knowning how OC affects you is critical to your defense if someone threatens you with OC. OC is readily available to the civilian population, and it has been used against LEO's, and you HAVE to be able to articulate how you were in fear of being incapacited by OC if you use lethal force against someone threatening you with OC.

'nuff said.

Jerry, Pretty wide brush you’re using there. Might want to just reword that first sentence a bit, someone might take it for gospel.

Your second part is missing something....

“”You HAVE to be able to articulate how you were in fear of being incapacitated by OC””....and.....

What the subjects actions were next, that lead you to use deadly force. Meaning what was it that closed the triangle completely, OC alone is not deadly force, even if you get a full face shot of it. Your training and qual process will come into play as well if you go to court. You were sprayed and still kept your eyes open to protect yourself and you know what to do and this time YES it will still burn but you know that you can survive it.

I know your background, however we have lots of JR's that read these boards that don't have your training, knowledge and experience, for you to say it's deadly force right off the bat might lead them down the wrong path in their UOF decisions. Might just confuse them.

“”threatening you with OC”” is not anywhere in the list of DF situations in the MLEM.

OC spray is used at Level II (Verbal noncompliance) in the civilian LE Use of Force Continuum and Level IV (Active Resistance) in the CG's Use of Force Continuum.

However, when an offender uses OC spray against LEO's, it has always been a Deadly Force (Level VI) event.

Locally, an LEO was sprayed with his own OC Spray after it was taken away from him during a domestic battery arrest/struggle. A .20 gauge shotgun was present during the incident. He had to bail out of the residence to clear himself of the effects of the OC spray, then run back into the incident to assist in the arrest.

What is unclear?

At my past unit we where given the option to get OC'ed. Didn't want to, no problem. LE program, mandatory. ATFP, mandatory. If you don't want to do it, don't. I can't see a LEO or Unit threating Capt. Mast over it. I do however recommend getting sprayed. Think of it as paying your dues. Just be sure to shake your head vigorously back and fourth before opening your eyes.//OS2 Sends

I'm stationed on the tahoma..its a 270. I got here a month ago and i heard about the OC spraying..they said since im a fireman ( or woman whatever) that i might not have to get it done but i signed up for it anyway. i got sprayed yesterday actually! I was looking for posts about it. Who ever hasnt done it SHOULD..its awful but you feel like a champ afterwards. Oh and so what if they make everyone do it on your boat..they did here and it just made another good story to talk about!

"What does not kill me makes me stronger."

-Friedrich Nietzsche, Twilight of the Idols

Just food for thought

quote:

I don't know about you, but I don't want someone who wants nothing to do with LE watching my back in a stressful / life-threatening situation.

I have to say that I agree with this statement. I also say that if you do not want to do the job there is a kid onboard a big white one just waiting to get his hands on a land billett. Off you go........

I think the whole point of the training and being exposed to the OC is so when you have to choose between OC or something more lethal, you will be confident in going with the OC.

Like so many others on here, I had to go through the OC spray for L/E with USCG and USCS along with tear gas exposure for NBC warfare in Guantanmo Bay during Refresher Training while onboard the CGC Chase. Though it was certainly not fun, it goes away in about 15 mins with water and fresh air and everyone in the training survived.

We all know the effects of a bullet so there is no need to shoot ourselves. Many do not understand the effects of OC until they themselves have been exposed. Personally, I hated carrying the spray because of the marine environment with winds and small spaces.

I once fought a person after we sprayed him. He was overdosing on acid and I think the spray on him was worse on us as he was too out of his mind to notice.

On another occasion, a prisoner was being transported for a Sheriff's Office. He broke out of his restraints and was breaking the cage in the transport van. He was ready to fight all of us and wouldn't have done some damage with his size. A deputy loaded him up with the OC foam and within 20-30 seconds, the prisoner was rolling on the ground and crying like a baby.

I've stated in other conversations that I have many reservations about people being forced to do law enforcement. It will almost certainly jeopardize the safety of the boarding team.

Don (6 yrs USCG, 17 yrs USCS Marine Interdiction Div)

quote:

It's so you know how to decontaminate yourself in case of accidental exposure and so you know what kind of pain the suspect is in during exposure.

We learned how to "decominate" yourselves from nuclear explosions too, but none of us were exposed to one. (Well, some of us carried dosemeters)

[quote[Locally, an LEO was sprayed with his own OC Spray after it was taken away from him during a domestic battery arrest/struggle. A .20 gauge shotgun was present during the incident. He had to bail out of the residence to clear himself of the effects of the OC spray, then run back into the incident to assist in the arrest.[/quote]

Does the Coast Guard teach people to run away after being sprayed? Seems to be the best tactic.

The "spraying" part of training began with a bunch of wackoes in G-OLE over twenty years ago. They used the same excuses. They hold more water today than they did then.

It is just one of those things that began and no one wants to be seen as "weak" to stop it.
Shooting oneself, stabbing oneself or hitting oneself with a baton is not part of the training.

While in Vietnam the fishermen used to try to "hook" us with their trailing hand lines. No one of stuck a rusty hook in our ears.

quote:

it goes away in about 15 mins with water and fresh air and everyone in the training survived.

So, if exposed by the opposition, what are you going to do for those 15 minutes of being incapciated? Do you pull your weapon and begin spraying all around you? They may survive the training situation, but what about reality?

quote:

It's so you know how to decontaminate yourself in case of accidental exposure and so you know what kind of pain the suspect is in during exposure.

No, the above is a very small aspect to why BO/BTMs and LEO get sprayed! Who is feeding this crap? Being sprayed with OC is to show YOU what the effects are on YOU will be and that it is possible to defend yourself if exposed! OC is not 100% effective on people. I am one of them! I have been sprayed several times, either intentionally or in training getting the overspray, and I can still "fight on". Yes, the spray does bother me, but it does not incapacitate (sp) me. Now, that is not true for most!

As for being "forced" to carry pepper spray, in order to carry it, you have to be sprayed IAW COMDTINST! Also, LE is still voluntary, so if you aren't a qualified BO/BTM you don't carry it.

quote:

You know that you also must carry intermediate weapons if you are conducting force protection duties also, not just LE.

Really? Did something change in the last 3 years since I came off a cutter? There were a lot of people carry a weapon without any of the other "le" gear. Maybe my Command missed something. Force Protection is NOT LE, it is about protecting the ship and crew at whatever the cost!

quote:

Does the Coast Guard teach people to run away after being sprayed? Seems to be the best tactic.

Not directly, but it is always an option every one doing LE should be thinking about, along with cover and concealment, what will I do if this happens, etc. Also, RONONE I do believe you were in during the CURB-60 era, and people were exposed to this chemical irrantant also.


GUNS

quote:

We learned how to "decominate" yourselves from nuclear explosions too, but none of us were exposed to one. (Well, some of us carried dosemeters)
While in Vietnam the fishermen used to try to "hook" us with their trailing hand lines. No one of stuck a rusty hook in our ears.

I should hope not...but can you deny that being exposed to any of the above and surviving unhurt would provide you with valuable expierence to survive a second attack? I don't think you can. Problem with the above is you can't survive unhurt.

OC is a different story. It hurts like hell (I had 'sunburn' on my face for two days) but you can survive it with no ill effects...and gain experience in doing so. So why wouldn't you?
I don't think you'd say 'Surfman can no longer train in surf because people are getting injured...lets just send em out when someone is in trouble' or 'Lets not teach our officers pressure points because that hurts...just explain it to em in the classroom and send em to the field' So why would you have the same attitude with OC?

Train how you will play...espically if it ain't gonna cause any permanant damage. It may save your life.

Excellently spoken

quote:

Originally posted by ronone:

quote:

it goes away in about 15 mins with water and fresh air and everyone in the training survived.

So, if exposed by the opposition, what are you going to do for those 15 minutes of being incapciated? Do you pull your weapon and begin spraying all around you? They may survive the training situation, but what about reality?

You're not getting an arguement from me. I stopped carrying the stuff because I did not like the idea of the boarding crew and myself being taken out by a cloud of it during an enforcement action. I can see a use for it at a dockside boarding.

I think there has been way too many accidental discharges occuring while underway and bouncing around in the boat.

During an entry of our tactical team into a home in Miami, one agent leaned up against the outside of a home and set his can off. Took him out of the raid.

I've seen it be effective against suspects and I've seen it take out officers/agents.

Again, I did not like carrying it on my belt myself.

Don

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 21yrsUSCGUSCS,